Favorite Falkand's War Aircraft

[Bob the Nailor 0]

You can believe what you like I couldn't give a toss.

 

How many times did you claim to sink our aircraft carriers ?

 

We one you lost

 

And heres a reminder of the flag thats flying over Stanley !

 

http://www.visualbliss.co.uk/themes/unionjacks.htm

Edited January 15, 2005 by Bob the Nailor

[MBot 0]

Hi Guys,

I did indeed read Sharky Wards 'book'. I found the comment about the RAF wasting resources to mount a raid on Stanley with a Vulcan that his harriers could have done pretty laughable. I couldn't believe someone so obviously intelligent could not see the reason for this raid was not to hit the runway, but to show the Argentinian government we could hit their mainland bases. Thus pulling fighters away to defend their northern bases.

 

That might have been the intention of the RAF, but did it realy succede ? You often read that the Vulcan missions on Stanley airport stopped the Mirage III flights over the islands ( because they were forced to move north to cover the mainland ). I haven't seen any evidence yet that supports this. To my knowledge the Mirage III spend the whole war at Rio Gallegos, from where they couldn't cover any significant part of Argentina excpect the southern AF Bases. But an Vulcan attack against them was most unlikely anyway, as that would have been suicidal for a single, unescorted Vulcan.

 

I think we all agree that the Mirage III ( ar the whole argentinan AF ) stopped to search aircombat because of the disasterous events of 1st May. But why didn't the Mirages apear over the islands between 1st till 21th May ( the Mirage III kept flying escorts and decoy flights over the Falklands after 21th May ) ? Sharky Wards theory that the Mirages spend their whole droptanks stock on first May sounds very plausible, at least much more plausible than Mirage III covering Buenos Aires from Vulcan raids... Are there any argentinan sources on that matter ? That would be very interesting.

 

 

While I agree with the original poster that Wards book has to be read with big caution, I agree with Ward that the Vulcan raids didn't achieve much more that morale effects.

[MBot 0]

... the Sidewinder AIM-B, the Matra Magic, and the Shafrir Air-to-Air missiles could not compete against the AIM-9L, afaik.

 

It is often stated that the good training of the FAA pilots and the excellent AIM-9L were the two big factors that provided the british air superiority over tha Falklands.

Regarding the AIM-9L, this is questionable the me. Altough the AIM-9L should be an all aspect weapon, all kills with this weapon were achieved from the rear aspect. To my knowledge, any attemt to get a lock from the front failed.

On the other hand, on 1st May a Dagger successfully launched a Shafrir from a frontal aspect aganst a Sea Harrier. The missle tracked and the Sea Harrier had to give up much altitude to shake the missle. Altough not killed, that Sea Harrier was effectivly put out of the fight. Seconds later the Dagger was killed by the second Shar.

 

The AIM-9L was most likely the best AA-missle in the theater, but the Shafrir event - altough perhaps just lucky circumstances - shows that the superiority of the 9L wasn't godlike.

Edited January 16, 2005 by MBot

[Argentine Pucara 1]

You can believe what you like I couldn't give a toss.

 

How many times did you claim to sink our aircraft carriers ?

 

We one you lost

 

And heres a reminder of the flag thats flying over Stanley !

 

http://www.visualbliss.co.uk/themes/unionjacks.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For how long.

[Mothman 0]

That might have been the intention of the RAF, but did it realy succede ? You often read that the Vulcan missions on Stanley airport stopped the Mirage III flights over the islands ( because they were forced to move north to cover the mainland ). I haven't seen any evidence yet that supports this. To my knowledge the Mirage III spend the whole war at Rio Gallegos, from where they couldn't cover any significant part of Argentina excpect the southern AF Bases. But an Vulcan attack against them was most unlikely anyway, as that would have been suicidal for a single, unescorted Vulcan.

 

I think we all agree that the Mirage III ( ar the whole argentinan AF ) stopped to search aircombat because of the disasterous events of 1st May. But why didn't the Mirages apear over the islands between 1st till 21th May ( the Mirage III kept flying escorts and decoy flights over the Falklands after 21th May ) ? Sharky Wards theory that the Mirages spend their whole droptanks stock on first May sounds very plausible, at least much more plausible than Mirage III covering Buenos Aires from Vulcan raids... Are there any argentinan sources on that matter ? That would be very interesting.

While I agree with the original poster that Wards book has to be read with big caution, I agree with Ward that the Vulcan raids didn't achieve much more that morale effects.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As far as i have read the decission to keep the Mirage III in the continent was to protect the air bases in the Patagonia. You all know that the Super Etendard bases in Rio Gallegos were a primary target for spec ops and Vulcans, as well as the 2 KC-130 tankers. If an air raid was not attempted it probaly was either because of political reasons (the exclusion zone set by UK did not included the mainland) or because of the limited success probabilities.

 

The "significant part" of Argentina, that you mention in your post, was imho the air bases in the south. With the 2 KC-130 Hercules tankers the FAA had and the 4 Super Etendard with 1 Exocet each being destroyed on the ground, the air war is over over the islands. Of course, a Vulcan mission over the air bases would have been very complicated and somewhat suicidal. What if the Vulcans flew from Chile? (or could land in Chile after a mission?) Or what if Chile entered the conflict on UK's side? What if there was a conflict between Argentina and Chile after the conflict with UK had stopped? (it was very possible at the time). Those Mirage III were needed for air base protection, not for fighter sweeps or escorting missions. It also had to be preserved for an eventual conflict with Chile. Imho, it was a very rational call, although I do not think the Mirage III pilots liked the decission.

 

I'll look for some argentinian sources, but i think i'll probably find some british sources about this first. By the way, I did not say that the Mirage III were moved "North".The Mirage III remained in their southern bases, but stopped flying over the islands.

 

EDIT: added the lat paragraph.

Edited January 22, 2005 by Mothman

[Mothman 0]

You can believe what you like I couldn't give a toss.

 

How many times did you claim to sink our aircraft carriers ?

 

We one you lost

 

And heres a reminder of the flag thats flying over Stanley !

 

http://www.visualbliss.co.uk/themes/unionjacks.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey Bob. This is not place for flaming wars. No one claimed having sunk any carrier anyway. Chill out and congrats for the victory. Another piece of wasteland populated with second class implanted UK citizens for the Queen to worry about and spend her money. lol. Just chill out and have fun. The war is over and our soldiers are standing side by side in Chipre, btw. Follow their example. They're the ones who die for you. You just play PC games.

 

lol

Edited January 22, 2005 by Mothman

[MBot 0]

I still can't imagine that the Mirages were held back because of the Vulcans. I am sure that the AAF did the math and calculated to what extend the RAF could mount Vulcan missions to the south. Even if they didn't know exactly that the RAF only could send a single Vulcan every several days to the south, it wouldn't justify to hold back all 15 Mirage III.

The keep 1 or 2 on ready alert would have been more then enough IMO. But even this is questionable.

 

If you could dig out some argentinan sources about the orders of the Mirages, that would be great.

[Mothman 0]

I still can't imagine that the Mirages were held back because of the Vulcans. I am sure that the AAF did the math and calculated to what extend the RAF could mount Vulcan missions to the south. Even if they didn't know exactly that the RAF only could send a single Vulcan every several days to the south, it wouldn't justify to hold back all 15 Mirage III.

The keep 1 or 2 on ready alert would have been more then enough IMO. But even this is questionable.

 

If you could dig out some argentinan sources about the orders of the Mirages, that would be great.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok. This is a quick one, although sadly it's just an argentinian source quoting a british source.

 

I've translated it to english the best i could, so pleaes forgive me for any mistake.

 

Book: "La Guerra Inaudita" 11th edition

Author: Rubén Oscar Moro

Publisher: Edivérn

Page: 144

 

"Some british authors have written that the Vulcan attack made the FAS (Air Force South) redeploy its Mirage aircraft to defend their continental bases".

 

The author took the info from here:

- Ethel & Price, "Guerra Aérea Sudatlántica (Southatlantic Air War)", p. 49

- Mason Tony, "Air power, a centennial appraisal", p. 65

 

I'll keep looking for something longer and more detailed, anyway.

[javis 0]

I always liked the A-4. undoubtely, the most vintage at that time (I will not talk about the canberra...), since it was projected by Ed Heinemann in the `52, a design with 30 years on its spine at 1982 and still flying, was the most undefended too, but, the "scooter" accomplished well and was loyal.

 

this sim will be a good tribute to all those designers like heinemann, dassault, etc.

 

I just can`t wait to have a demo roaring here!

 

good job! sigan laburando asì!

[scary_pigeon 0]

Hey Bob. This is not place for flaming wars. No one claimed having sunk any carrier anyway. Chill out and congrats for the victory. Another piece of wasteland populated with second class implanted UK citizens for the Queen to worry about and spend her money.  lol. Just chill out and have fun. The war is over and our soldiers are standing side by side in Chipre, btw. Follow their example. They're the ones who die for you. You just play PC games. 

 

lol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

haha yeah.

 

it has a serious side though. it is a wasteland of inbred englanders who farm sheep and such..

 

..but they guard for britain a notion: Antartica. By having a presence in the south atlantic we gain a fact on the ground argument for a stake in any future spoils with regards to antartica.

 

the demonstration of british projection may remind other south american nations that might be interesting in future antartic claims to be aware of britains capability and interest in the region.

Edited January 28, 2005 by scary_pigeon

[Argentine Pucara 1]

Hi everyone, it's been a while since I've done anything in this forum.

 

I know it might as well be kind of late to say this , but I just wanted to get some facts straight. First of all Bob, the British actually brought 28 Sea Harriers not 20(However, they did start the war with 20)and 14 Harriers and about the air to air kills three of those air to air kills haven't been confirmed so I strongly believe that if you count the British unconfirmed air to air kills you might as well count the Argentine ones. :)

[Argentine Pucara 1]

As far as i have read the decission to keep the Mirage III in the continent was to protect the air bases in the Patagonia. You all know that the Super Etendard bases in Rio Gallegos were a primary target for spec ops and Vulcans, as well as the 2 KC-130 tankers. If an air raid was not attempted it probaly was either because of political reasons (the exclusion zone set by UK did not included the mainland) or because of the limited success probabilities.

 

The "significant part" of Argentina, that you mention in your post, was imho the air bases in the south. With the 2 KC-130 Hercules tankers the FAA had and the 4 Super Etendard with 1 Exocet each being destroyed on the ground, the air war is over over the islands. Of course, a Vulcan mission over the air bases would have been very complicated and somewhat suicidal. What if the Vulcans flew from Chile? (or could land in Chile after a mission?) Or what if Chile entered the conflict on UK's side? What if there was a conflict between Argentina and Chile after the conflict with UK had stopped? (it was very possible at the time). Those Mirage III were needed for air base protection, not for fighter sweeps or escorting missions. It also had to be preserved for an eventual conflict with Chile. Imho, it was a very rational call, although I do not think the Mirage III pilots liked the decission.

 

I'll look for some argentinian sources, but i think i'll probably find some british sources about this first. By the way, I did not say that the Mirage III were moved "North".The Mirage III remained in their southern bases, but stopped flying over the islands.

 

EDIT: added the lat paragraph.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What do you mean with the disastrous event if only one Mirage III was shot down in air to air combat during May 1(Out of the Mirage IIIs that is of course)?( If your adding Cuerva's Mirage III, you should know that he was accidently shot down by the Argentine Artillery fire. By the way only a Dagger and a Mirage III were destroyed in combat that day.

Edited March 1, 2005 by Argentine Pucara

[KevBaz 0]

a number of argentine aircraft were destroyed on the 1st of may

 

Saturday 1st May

 

[a2, a3, a4] - One Pucara of FAA Grupo 3 destroyed and two more damaged and not repaired at Goose Green by CBU's dropped in attack by No.800 Sea Harriers flown by Lt Cmdr Frederiksen, Lt Hale and Lt McHarg RN (8.25 am). Lt Jukic killed in the destroyed aircraft.

 

[a5] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 shot down north of West Falkland by Flt Lt Barton RAF in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.10 pm). Lt Perona ejects safely.

 

[a6] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 damaged in same incident north of West Falkland by Lt Thomas RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder. Then shot down over Stanley by own AA defences (4.15 pm). and Capt Cuerva killed

 

[a7] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over East Falkland by Flt Lt Penfold RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.40 pm). Lt Ardiles killed.

 

[a8] - Canberra B.62 of FAA Grupo 2 shot down north of Falklands by Lt Curtiss RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (5.45 pm). Lt Ibanez and Gonzalez eject but are not rescued.

[Mothman 0]

What do you mean with the disastrous event if only one Mirage III was shot down in air to air combat during May 1(Out of the Mirage IIIs that is of course)?( If your adding Cuerva's Mirage III, you should know that he was accidently shot down by the Argentine Artillery fire. By the way only a Dagger and a Mirage III were destroyed in combat that day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Errr... where did I say those words? You're confusing me!

 

I'm too lazy to read more than 3 times what i wrote ... I cannot find any comments about a "disastrous event" or about Cuerva's Mirage.

 

Maybe you quoted me by mistake? Don't make me read all other people's posts from weeks ago! I'm too lazy!

[Vigilante 0]

Oh boy - I'm looking forward to the game but I might have to avoid the forums discussing it. Is this still a little too recent for y'all to be civil to each other?

[Argentine Pucara 1]

Errr... where did I say those words? You're confusing me! 

 

I'm too lazy to read more than 3 times what i wrote ... I cannot find any comments about a "disastrous event" or about Cuerva's Mirage.

 

Maybe you quoted me by mistake? Don't make me read all other people's posts from weeks ago! I'm too lazy! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:) My bad, that was MBot.

[Argentine Pucara 1]

a number of argentine aircraft were destroyed on the 1st of may

 

Saturday 1st May

 

    [a2, a3, a4] - One Pucara of FAA Grupo 3 destroyed and two more damaged and not repaired at Goose Green by CBU's dropped in attack by No.800 Sea Harriers flown by Lt Cmdr Frederiksen, Lt Hale and Lt McHarg RN (8.25 am). Lt Jukic killed in the destroyed aircraft.

 

    [a5] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 shot down north of West Falkland by Flt Lt Barton RAF in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.10 pm). Lt Perona ejects safely.

 

    [a6] - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 damaged in same incident north of West Falkland by Lt Thomas RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder. Then shot down over Stanley by own AA defences (4.15 pm). and Capt Cuerva killed

 

    [a7] - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over East Falkland by Flt Lt Penfold RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (4.40 pm). Lt Ardiles killed.

 

    [a8] - Canberra B.62 of FAA Grupo 2 shot down north of Falklands by Lt Curtiss RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder (5.45 pm). Lt Ibanez and Gonzalez eject but are not rescued.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm only talking about the losses in Port Stanley and Capt. Cuerva's Mirage III was not shot down by a sidewinder.

Edited April 18, 2005 by Argentine Pucara

[fallenpheonix 0]

"Then shot down over Stanley by own AA defences (4.15 pm). "

 

indeed... he was only hit by one, which is what it says above

[Jex =TE= 0]

Gotta be the Sea Harrier. I've yet to fly one in a sim (I missed av8b Harrier by... microprose was it? Anyway, I'm really looking forward to climbing into the pit and vectoring those nozzles :)

[Yyrd 0]

On May 25, 1982; the Atlantic Conveyor was hit by an Exocet missile fired by an Argentine Super Étendard jet fighter and sank later that day. It is unclear whether the missile's warhead detonated?the Exocet that sank HMS Sheffield had failed to explode?but the ship was set alight by the impact of the missile and the unburnt rocket fuel. Although the cargo of Harrier jump jets had been safely delivered to HMS Hermes, all the helicopters but two (one Chinook, callsign Bravo November, and one Wessex, which were airborne at the time) were destroyed in the fire. The loss of these helicopters meant that British troops had to march across the Falklands to capture Port Stanley.

 

the Atlantic Conveyor picked up a cargo of four Royal Air Force Harrier jump jets, four Chinook HC.1s and six Wessex helicopters.

 

that counts for more uk air loses.

[TROOPER117 146]

Mmmmm, Vigilante is probably right! A bit too close for this one!

I was at the time, and still am a serving member of HM forces and lost guys from my regiment out there.

Yep, gonna give this forum a miss, its not like discussing WWII 60 odd years ago.

 

 

Regards....Dave S

[scary_pigeon 0]

Mmmmm, Vigilante is probably right! A bit too close for this one!

I was at the time, and still am a serving member of HM forces and lost guys from my regiment out there.

Yep, gonna give this forum a miss, its not like discussing WWII 60 odd years ago.

Regards....Dave S

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

well at least the war is an example of how wars should be fought. when these argentine imperials (im sure that term will amuse our argentine friends here) came in, they didnt go round ravaging the place. they shat in some peoples baths and stuff for not feeding them, but there was none of the usual harshness you hear of in the news.

 

near zero civ casualties. bit of a shame for the argentine conscripts though - who should really have been in college or something. but as wars go, it was cleanly done.

 

none of this 100,000 civ casualties that the lancet projects in iraq and all that.

[EAGLE 18 FLT 0]

well at least the war is an example of how wars should be fought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wars shouldn't be fought at all but I guess sometimes they are necessary, under specific and extremly bad circumstances. Refferring to civilian fatalitys thought I guess its the "best" of a war were going to get.

Edited May 4, 2005 by EAGLE 18 FLT

[U.K.O.R_Ivan 0]

Air combat fighter claims over the Falklands

Royal Air Force and Fleet Air Arm

 

Date and pilot name, Aircraft Destroyed, Armament Used

 

May 1:

 

F/Lt Paul Barton, RAF, Mirage, Sidewinder

Lt Steve Thomas, Mirage, Sidewinder

F/Lt Tony Penfold, Dagger, Sidewinder

Lt Al Curtiss, Canberra, Sidewinder

 

 

May 21:

 

Lt Cdr Ward, Pucara, 30mm Cannon

Lt Cdr Mike Blissett, Skyhawk, Sidewinder

Lt Cdr Neil Thomas, Skyhawk, Sidewinder

Lt Cdr Fred Frederiksen, Dagger, Sidewinder

Lt Steve Thomas, 2 Daggers, Sidewinder

Lt Cdr Ward, Dagger, Sidewinder

Lt Clive Morell, Skyhawk, Sidewinder

F/Lt John Leeming, Skyhawk, 30mm Cannon

Lt Clive Morell, Skyhawk, Sidewinder

 

 

May 23:

 

Lt Martin Hale, Dagger, Sidewinder

 

May 24:

 

Lt Cdr Andy Auld, 2 Daggers, Sidewinder

Lt David Smith, Dagger, Sidewinder

 

June 1:

 

Lt Cdr Ward, Hercules, Sidewinder and 30mm

 

June 8:

 

F/Lt David Morgan, 2 Skyhawks, Sidewinder

Lt David Smith, Skyhawk, Sidewinder

 

 

Quote from Aircraft VS Aircraft

 

After the action of this day (May 1st) the Mirage III's were pulled out of the fighting. This was because the RAF had bombed the airfield at Port Stanley, using a Vulcan bomber in a 15 and a half hour flight from Ascension Island, a round trip of 7860 miles. The Argentine Government reasoned that if the RAF could bomb Port Stanley then it could bomb targets in Argentina. The Mirage III's from then on were used for home defence, thereby reducing the Falklands' attack force and taking from it the only pure fighter that might have given the Harrier serious opposition.

 

In the event the British Harriers destroyed a total of 22 Argentine aircraft - 9 Daggers, 8 Skyhawks, 2 Mirages, plus a Canberra, a C-130 Hercules and a Purcara, mostly by Sidewinders for no loss in air combat.

 

The Harrier was better than the Mirage in a turning circle, but when attacking the Dagger, it was unable to catch the enemy once it had dropped it's bombs and accerlerated to near-supersonic speed. Even in a dive the Harrier had no chance of gaining on the Dagger.

 

Now, there is some good information.

 

I've never heard of any Argentine claims to any air-to-air kills, until today, and I've searched everywhere. Unless you've got some links and leads to back those claims up, then I can probably safely say they never happened and was just Argentine propaganda, some of the many that was floating around at the time.

 

It's like the 1982 Lebanon conflict, Israeli pilots claimed 87 without loss in air to air combat, however, the Syrians and Soviets claimed 21 kills with 67 IAF F-15's and F-16's downed. But we all know the Israelis didn't lose anything in air-to-air combat.

 

Cheers,

Edited May 13, 2005 by U.K.O.R_Ivan

[Pete 0]

Theres Only 1 aircraft out of all the 9 thats got grace,looks,& shear power

It's got to be the VULCAN

 

And with abit of luck we should have XH558 flying again next year

 

All the best Pete :) :)

 

 

P.S we shouldn't discuss the war it wasn't that long ago.

A good friend of mine was killed aboard the Sheffield,& his wife and 2 children

never got to see him again

Edited May 14, 2005 by Pete