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#21 Typhoid

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 10:53:51 PM

no.  It means  that the FCC can now levy fees and taxes on everyone who uses the Internet.  This is a stealth tax on everyone, and a big one. 

 

it means that under the provisions of "a public service" they have the power to regulate content, service, and override contracts. 

 

"It means that the BS practices of limiting internet service to specific regions, and forcing outrageous prices for those outside of those regions IS OVER."  never existed.  What does exist is that areas that don't have enough people to support a service don't get served.  That's the Free Market and customer base at work, not Restraint of Trade as alleged. 

 

"The days of internet companies deciding what sites I can visit based on how much I pay, is OVER."  never existed.

 

" It also means that the ISP's can't charge me more because I use "more Internet" just for using Netflix. Or charge me more because I want to multi-player game."  it means that those who don't use heavy bandwidth will now be charged more to subsidize the heavy users and make everyone "equal" rather than charged for service. 

 

There was never a "slow lane" as some people alleged.  There were "fast lanes" that gave the option to people who wanted a higher level of service.  That will now go away and everyone will have the same level of sub-par service.  Kiss your fast lanes goodbye because the broader market won't support it. 

 

"It keeps the ISP's from charging unfair rates to areas that are remote because there isn't enough people in a given area."  that isn't unfair.  It is market conditions.  If there isn't a customer base to support extension of wired service then service doesn't go out there to remote areas.  Instead, there are wireless options in some areas or satellite.  Neither will compete with landlines (whether cable, wired, fiber, etc.) but that is a market condition tied to a customer base, not a Restraint of Trade or "unfair" service. 

 

"My ISP ATT U-verse offers several packages. If I want more speed I have to pay more they press a button and I get it." you will lose that. 

 

"My understanding is that if Comcast got their way they can charge providers say CombatACE monthly fee so CombatACE can provide content in a timely manner."  no.  Comcast and other service providers contract with large volume users, such as Netflix, because Netflix is such a large volume.  (I read somewhere that Netflix is about 40% of the Internet).  But nothing that has gone on or was going to go on would have required content provides, such as CombatACE, to have such a contract to carry their content. Contracts do provide assurance of service for large volumes.  Internet Service Providers don't block content (other than porn).  Under the new FCC rules that now will become an issue. 

 

essentially, what many of you all thought you were going to prevent, will now become a very likely probability under that part of the FCC regs.  You all were duped.  Big time. 

 

of course, the above is stated without having seen the actual rules since they still haven't been released and posted for review.  So who really knows what is actually in these secret regs?  I'll wager that there is very little of what some of you all thought were in them and whole lot of taxes, fees and heavy-handed regulation, including potential content regulation.   

 

hopefully the time in court will enable a full vetting of what the regs actually are and sanity may yet prevail.  But I doubt it.  The Obamanet is now here and the free and open Internet will become a thing of the past. 

 

If you liked your Internet, you don't get to keep your Internet. 


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#22 Do335

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 11:25:27 PM

Seems to boils down to choice of lesser of 2 evils, the evil big corp or the bad gov't.

 

Or the belief that in this net provider market, does free market sort itself out, or is regulation ultimately necessary.

 

Or... is one more left (democrat) or more right (republican)?

 

 

 

I think there's need for regulation here. Internet is becoming more of an infrastructure. Meanwhile whoever controls the last mile of the cable has monopoly, thus free competition fails. So this has to be intervened by government. In Europe, Japan, Skorea the gov't is regulating the ISPs, and they have better net, with lower prices. The US is the most free/capitalistic market even among 1st world countries, but in this instance free market bites back and becomes a hindrance.

 

In China the internet is becoming a national intranet. In the beginning, the communist government did not have the means to cordon off the net other than keyword filtering, but guess what, for several years Cisco supplied them with critical hardware and technology that built the Great Firewall higher and higher. The biggest human rights suppression instrument on the internet is supplied by western big corps, who would do anything to make money.

 

Why do I care? To access web content outside the wall I subscribe to several commercial VPNs, which have become my lifeline. These guys and the servers they rent are start-ups or small businesses. And guess where they're located.

 

Also I love ma internet.



#23 Erik

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:41:00 AM

You guys are confused it seems like to me. I know it's a difficult topic to handle in one sitting but if you don't think a "class" of service ever existed you never read anything about the Netflix shake down by Comcast. It doesn't matter how big of a package you buy from your ISP to download movies from Netflix if Netflix is throttled on the upstream your download speeds go in the toilet. Personally I'm going to wait until I can read the reclassification by the FCC to draw any conclusions. The two safety valves we now have are congress and the courts where before we had none because it was in private business hands. From what's said this is just a reclassification of the service not the providers. 


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#24 Do335

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:49:03 AM

it means that under the provisions of "a public service" they have the power to regulate content, service, and override contracts. 
 
"It means that the BS practices of limiting internet service to specific regions, and forcing outrageous prices for those outside of those regions IS OVER."  never existed.  What does exist is that areas that don't have enough people to support a service don't get served.  That's the Free Market and customer base at work, not Restraint of Trade as alleged.

Extreme cases are imagined, but a US "state run internet" also feels a bit.. paranoid. I hear ISPs and phone co. have blocked/restricted ports that common P2P transfers use, blocked whatsapp transfers to facilitate SMS usage and bundled in their own IPTV service that doesn't count towards monthly traffic cap etc. Net neutrality should just be considered as anti-monopoly regulation, instead of big brother taking over the net. I'm sure if one pays a higher price one will still get faster connection.
 
Otoh the bill that gets passed before publicly reviewed is weird. I think americans should indeed have a problem with that... But internet has developed to a stage where an ugly decision has to be made, and at the end of day it seems that ones that opposes the bill are ISPs and those support it are google/facebook/smallbiz who provides service for millions of people who are just average guys. So unless one is anti-google might as well go with it for own self I reckon.
 
On the tech side though, a better video compression format that prevents the net from chocking should be really welcomed...


Edited by Do335, 27 February 2015 - 12:58:52 AM.


#25 Dave

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:32:58 AM

Typhoid

 

I am sorry, but you have this anti Obama thing clouding your judgement. I do not like him either but this is bigger than the who is sitting in the center seat. There is nothing I can find saying the FCC is going to tax anything.

 

Finally you have missed the total point of Net Neutrality. Totally missed it. It's about leaving the internet the way it is now. Nothing more, nothing less. The free market cop out is a bullshit line the ISP's are using in order the f**k people in the ass on what we can see and how fast we can see it. If you think for a sec the ISP's don't regulate what you see, then you are wrong. Legal P2P sites are a prime example. No it is not OK for the ISP's to charge me more because I use Netflix. IT'S THE SAME INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The anti Obama/anti Democrat stance makes you just as much of the problem as the Democrats. The current crop of politicians in power today and I mean ALL of them (Dems, Repubs, TP) are the exact problem with the government today. Democrats want a nanny/kumbya state, Republicans do the opposite of anything the PEOPLE want and have zero agenda. Don't get me started about the Tea Party. Not enough rope to hang em all and start over.


To quote Erik

 

 

Personally I'm going to wait until I can read the reclassification by the FCC to draw any conclusions. The two safety valves we now have are congress and the courts where before we had none because it was in private business hands. From what's said this is just a reclassification of the service not the providers.

 

What he said makes the most sense out of all this.


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#26 Dave

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:43:50 AM

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#27 Spectre8750

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:20:58 PM

This is about power and control. I thought you guys knew our government was out of control? They are not working for our benefit anymore. The first line of defense for us is communication, the government will not allow that. When the shit hits the fan we will be cut off from one another. And in the mean time our right's are being taken away one by one. There are other ways to keep businesses from controlling the internet and fees by preventing unfair business practices without giving our rights up to what WE can do. Mark my words, things are getting more brown shirt everyday and you guys will realize it when it's to late.


Edited by Spectre8750, 27 February 2015 - 12:23:20 PM.

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#28 Dave

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:33:22 PM

This is about power and control. I thought you guys knew our government was out of control? They are not working for our benefit anymore. The first line of defense for us is communication, the government will not allow that. When the shit hits the fan we will be cut off from one another. And in the mean time our right's are being taken away one by one. There are other ways to keep businesses from controlling the internet and fees by preventing unfair business practices without giving our rights up to what WE can do. Mark my words, things are getting more brown shirt everyday and you guys will realize it when it's to late.

 

 

Ok, now we are heading into tin foil hat territory. Sorry, shit isn't great but isn't that bad either. Going to have to whole hardily disagree with you. As far as the internet goes, the government IS NOT taking it over they are keeping the playing field level. The ISP's want to tell us who, what, when, why and where. Example, cables TV rates have gone up and up and up and the service has gotten crappier and crappier. That is why all those companies rank so low in customer satisfaction.


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#29 Typhoid

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 02:09:03 PM

Typhoid

 

I am sorry, but you have this anti Obama thing clouding your judgement.

 

There is nothing I can find saying the FCC is going to tax anything.

 

Have we ever caught him in a Truth yet?

 

Regulating under Title II is precisely what gives them the power to tax/fee providers - and ultimately you.  The Chair of the Commissioner admitted that but "promised" that is "not their intention" - yet....

 

What should give you pause, all of you pause, is that these regs are still secret.  No one really knows what is in these regs or not because they haven't released them yet.  So everyone will be held to regulations that no one knows what they are. 

 

Erik, do you have your site licence application and application fee ready yet? 

 

I'll hold further comment until we can all see what is actually in the regs, but the fact that no one actually knows what the regs (not passed legislation) are should be very troubling to everyone. 

 

So we will see.  I quite honestly hope, my friend, that I am wrong and you are right, but I rather doubt it given the track record so far. 

 

In the meantime, the FCC statement;

http://www.fcc.gov/d...t-open-internet

 

dissenting statement from Commissioner O'Reilly;

http://www.fcc.gov/a...le/doc-332260a6

 

dissenting statement from Commissioer Pai;

http://www.fcc.gov/a...le/doc-332260a5

 

you should all read those dissenting opinions carefully because they go into the details that the Soros and Ford Foundation $170million funded net-neutrality media campaign avoided mentioning. 


Edited by Typhoid, 27 February 2015 - 02:33:12 PM.

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#30 Dave

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 02:32:33 PM

So we will see.  I quite honestly hope, my friend, that I am wrong and you are right, but I rather doubt it given the track record so far. 

 

Now I do agree with you there. I am in the wait and see mode myself now that it passed. I hope we who wanted it are not wrong down the road. 


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#31 FastCargo

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 02:33:00 PM

Here's a simple way to understand it:

"If you cannot regulate yourselves, we will do it for you...and you won't like it."

The ISPs, including mobile providers, have no one to blame but themselves.

 

I am not a fan of large governments, but governmental intervention is not always a bad thing.  It can result in things like establishing standards and enabling protections.  Does anyone think auto makers would create cars that last as long, be as safe and efficient as they are now if the government had not passed and enforced standards that they needed to adhere to?  What about things like telephone and electric power regulation?  Far as I can tell, the world hasn't ended, but both have been Title II for a long time.

There has been very little I have seen that says the government is going to start enacting some sort of draconian censorship measures or tax the snot out of the internet.  As the NSA revelations have shown, they didn't need NN regulations to get into everything already.

And as an additional note, ISPs have already been caught doing the exact things NN advocates warned about.  People talk about Netflix as the prime example, but it goes beyond that.

http://www.fiercewir...rges/2014-10-22

 

http://www.techvibes...-off-2011-07-05

 

http://fortune.com/2...e-warner-cable/

 

http://gizmodo.com/t...ppen-1682094691

 

http://jirout.me/att...a-overage-fees/

 

http://bgr.com/2015/...net-neutrality/

 

Somebody stop me...I've got more...

 

Oh, and remember when AT&T said they weren't going to invest in more high speed because of the impending NN vote?  About that...

http://www.kansascit...le10441850.html

Seems like there's still competition even under impending Title II regulation.  Bluff called.

 

And don't get me started on the idea a few years ago of mobile ISPs charging for 'tethering'... an ability that cost them absolutely ZERO dollars but they charged for it anyway...it took the FCC to weigh in with a lawsuit to get Verizon (and by extension, other mobile ISPs) to stop doing that shit.

http://lifehacker.co...nt-means-to-you

FC

 


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#32 RUSTYMORLEY

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 03:45:58 AM

At the end of the day whatever the arguments are - it's really about screwing money from users, rather like speed cameras in Britain which are springing up all over the place fleecing motorists and making millions for the government !!!!!!!!!! 


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#33 FastCargo

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 05:37:15 PM

Man, I can't make this shit up:

http://www.appy-geek...icleid=37172634

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#34 Typhoid

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 05:08:58 PM

The list of who paid for what in that article left off the part where the contract between the content provider and the carrier was listed.

Which part of the new regulations address that part?

Loaded question since the FCC staff is still writing the regs, IN SECRET, that were "passed" last month. But we have to pass them in order for us to be able see what's in them, right.........?

I found it particularly interesting to read that The Evil Comcast is FOR net neutrality and poor, abused Netflix already regrets this regulatory overreach.

But as noted before, we'll see how badly everyone got screwed whenever the FCC finally gets around to releasing their post-vote written regs.
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#35 Spectre8750

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 08:25:09 PM

If you could only see what's behind the Green Door! If our government was concerned about our welfare why do they want to take out rights away? My tinfoil hat's off to you, but they see a way to funnel money from any source possible using any reason they can to control and bleed. If we're here more then a couple years I see it getting worse not better. That's kinda been the trend the 50 years now.


Edited by Spectre8750, 06 March 2015 - 08:42:08 PM.

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#36 Typhoid

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 04:55:03 PM

still no published regs for any of us unwashed masses to read and evaluate. 

 

what are key people saying about this?

 

http://www.fcc.gov/d...a-internet-plan

 

I particularly like the Netflix CEO comment and the characterization of these regs as "Net Neutering" -  spot on!

 

and why so long to publish the regs voted on in an open meeting?

 

http://www.fcc.gov/b...rial-privileges

 

never mind the man behind the curtain!!


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#37 Erik

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 01:05:35 AM

Good news. This morning, the FCC released the full text of the historic new net neutrality rules, and now it’s clearer than ever that these rules will protect free speech, and that Comcast and their allies in Congress have been lying to you.

 

You can read them in full here -- but since it's 313 pages (of fiery, Comcast-slaying justice), we wanted to give you a quick rundown of what the rules do and don't do. But don't stop reading after the summary, because Comcast is already on the attack and there's more to do right now.

 

• ISP’s and their friends in government can't block you from visiting a website. So you can visit any site that you want.
• They can't slow down access to websites. So the sites you want to visit will come to you as quickly as the sites Comcast wishes you were visiting.
• They can't speed up or make certain websites load faster. This is absolutely critical, because if they could speed up certain sites, that functionally means slowing down other sites.
• They can’t get between you and any content, application, service, or anything else that you want to access online. That is explicitly one of the rules. Just in case the other rules don’t cover something.
• There are no new taxes or fees anywhere in the rules, and there’s nothing limiting investment. At all. Period.

 

All of that is to say two simple, wonderful words: we won.


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#38 Spectre8750

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 03:06:08 PM

I have the full 400 page regs, and that's not all there is to it. But we'll see how it's implemented.


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#39 Typhoid

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 05:16:44 PM

I have the full 400 page regs, and that's not all there is to it. But we'll see how it's implemented.


I've been slogging through it. The correct phrase is not "we won" the correct phrase is "you've been had".

There are no new taxes, fees, etc. - yet. The "forebearance" sections should be read clearly for what they are - a "pinky promise" not to raise fees, taxes, etc., until they think they can get away with it.

The degree of control by the FCC is huge, invasive and oppressive.

I am still reading through it all but it is far less about "Net Neutrality" than it is about imposing Title II. Which is what this really was all about all along. On to the Courts and the Congress
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#40 Erik

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 09:20:54 PM

I've been slogging through it. The correct phrase is not "we won" the correct phrase is "you've been had".

There are no new taxes, fees, etc. - yet. The "forebearance" sections should be read clearly for what they are - a "pinky promise" not to raise fees, taxes, etc., until they think they can get away with it.

The degree of control by the FCC is huge, invasive and oppressive.

I am still reading through it all but it is far less about "Net Neutrality" than it is about imposing Title II. Which is what this really was all about all along. On to the Courts and the Congress

 

I'm sorry you feel this way. Call your congressman and complain about it. It's been offered that this is the way the FCC can regulate the internet under the Title II jurisdiction it has while offering the public and private business the safeguards it can. This will help private business from being extorted by the cable providers. Just recently Sony released that their PS4 / HBO GO customers on Comcast won't be able to use this service because Comcast blocked it. This after they extorted Netflix last year. Regardless of the examples provided that internet service providers like Comcast are up to no good you're still "stanning" for them. Comcast is fearful that the internet will take over their TV customers. Why pay $140 to Comcast when you can stream it over the internet and pay for exactly what you want in an al la carte type service. This is off track however but the rules are now public and they will be challenged by the cable companies and I wouldn't doubt that within the year SCOTUS will rule on it's legality. So please stop yelling fire in a crowded theater it doesn't help your arguments in the slightest. I mean first you complain about only wanting to only pay for what you use and we fought to give you just that now you're complaining this is exactly what you didn't want because it's "invasive and oppressive". I mean how else could it be? The way it is right now with no regulation and running under the free commerce idea can't continue because the cable companies challenged it. We didn't challenge the ideas and founding principals of the internet. The cable providers couldn't resist extorting new business, we didn't start this fight, they did. We worked to have our voice heard, it was, and the decisions are in our favor.

 

I appreciate you sticking with this, but you of all people should recognize when you're swimming with the sharks. Keep swimming they promise they won't eat you.


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