Battle of Britain Campaign Feedback

[+Baltika 85]

Attention WW2 Propheads

 

Thanks to all of you who have d/l BoB Campaign

 

As stated, it is a WIP, so feedback is very welcome - I know it is not perfect, and I would like to make it better. Please post any comments, suggestions, bug reports, gripes etc here. (Except issues about the fact that the only bombers you can shoot down are Do-17Z. I also have that problem. Every time I take on a flight of Ju-88 or He-111 I get my ass handed to me. Even if I take my whole squadron with me, and maneouvre for a frontal attack on intercept, I get shot to pieces. If anyone has successfully intercepted such a flight, and shot down more than one bomber, please let me know how you did it )

 

I will kick this off by asking one question. In the readme, I say there is a big issue - RAF air units showing up in North West France, and Luftwaffe units scrunching up in a line between Paris and Calais.

 

Has anyone actually seen this happen? Since I set this up again for public release, I have been flying the campaign, and I have not had it happen. It was perhaps, as TK suggested in this thread, a problem with my install. If it is sorted, I will amend the "Known Issues" accordingly. Thanks for your attention.

 

Thread link:

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4037

 

Cheers,

 

baltika

[+Typhoid 231]

Attention WW2 Propheads

 

Thanks to all of you who have d/l BoB Campaign

 

As stated, it is a WIP, so feedback is very welcome - I know it is not perfect, and I would like to make it better. Please post any comments, suggestions, bug reports, gripes etc here. (Except issues about the fact that the only bombers you can shoot down are Do-17Z. I also have that problem. Every time I take on a flight of Ju-88 or He-111 I get my ass handed to me. Even if I take my whole squadron with me, and maneouvre for a frontal attack on intercept, I get shot to pieces. If anyone has successfully intercepted such a flight, and shot down more than one bomber, please let me know how you did it )

 

I will kick this off by asking one question. In the readme, I say there is a big issue - RAF air units showing up in North West France, and Luftwaffe units scrunching up in a line between Paris and Calais.

 

Has anyone actually seen this happen? Since I set this up again for public release, I have been flying the campaign, and I have not had it happen. It was perhaps, as TK suggested in this thread, a problem with my install. If it is sorted, I will amend the "Known Issues" accordingly. Thanks for your attention.

 

Thread link:

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4037

 

Cheers,

 

baltika

 

loaded the campaign and aircraft into an existing WWII Europe load. So far is OK but about all I've done is a few missions. Haven't had any real time to look into this much, still working at work (sigh.....) and on the new Malvinas effort when I get a few moments.

 

I did manage to get quite a few Ju-88s and Heinkels. Use a lot of deflection shooting and high closure rates with jinking.

 

oh, did you also mean survive.........................? (once)

[+Baltika 85]

Hi Typhoid,

 

Thanks for your comments. I'm glad to hear it is at least possible to get something other than a Do-17 to go down

 

As to survival, well, it seems from reading Stephen Bungay's book on BoB that it was all in a day's work for a Hurri pilot to fly an intercept, bag a couple of bombers, get his engine block shot out, hit the silk and drift home, couple of pints in the nearest pub on landing, then back to base in time for tea. Good nights kip then repeat. Until his luck ran out, of course.

 

At least they didn't have to cope with the 109 pilot's lot: limping back across the Channel without enough fuel, ditching, then having your Air/Sea rescue Storches shot down by the RAF. Churchill was appalled by this practice, apparently, as were a good few members of the Luftwaffe, but the official RAF line was that the so-called rescue planes were flying recce missions and recovering combatants. Easy to say when your chaps mainly came down over your own territory.

 

I have seen a few 109s in the BoB campaign drifting into the sea, clearly heading for home, but out of fuel. Standing the above that's not so much a bug as the fact that the pilots kept going a little longer than they ought to. . .

 

I am also fairly disgruntled when, flying a Stuka campaign, I get bounced by Spits and my fighter escort is nowhere to be seen. Again, that seems to be not so much a bug as a genuine gripe of a lot of Stuka pilots. . . The 109 jockeys would rather be off flying their "frei jagds" to up their scores and win their Oak Leaves than nursemaiding a bunch of slow strike planes.

 

OTOH, I have on occasion been pleasantly surprised when a threatening Hurri or two has been blown out of the sky by my escort's cannon fire. Seems the campaign engine can always spring a few surprises.

 

Toodle-pip for now,

 

baltika

[+Baltika 85]

Campaign pack now updated to include the necessary SFP1 Dev A-team aircraft, and Allenjb42's He-111H2 mod of the A-Team's He-111H6.

 

Thanks to the A-Team and Allenjb42 for granting permission to allow their planes to be included as part of the package. Thanks guys

 

Download and install now much more straightforward for those who have an interest

 

Happy hunting,

 

baltika

[+Baltika 85]

And lest we forget, a previous upgrade or two added RussoUK2004's Bf 109E-3, Pasko's Stuka, and various mods by Kesselbrut, Charles, Kout, Geo and Allenjb42, so thanks to everyone concerned.

 

Cheers all

[Guest capun]

baltika

 

For the gunner's problem, I have some variables that you can try and see if they make some changes to the AI gunner behavious.

 

First, I think the data ini's may not be using the up to date features of the new patch. The AIData was added like this

 

[AIData]

AileronDeltaRoll=1.2

AileronRollRate=-1.0

ElevatorDeltaPitch=1.0

ElevatorPitchRate=-0.1

ThrottleDeltaSpeed=0.05

ThrottleVelocity=-0.01

DeltaSpeedForAfterburner=50

DeltaSpeedForAirbrakes=-50

MaxPitchForAltitude=25.0

MinPitchForAltitude=-15.0

PitchForThrottle=0.005

PitchForAltitude=0.01

PitchForVerticalVelocity=-0.01

RollForHeading=15.0

RollForHeadingRate=-0.5

MinRollHeading=15.0

MaxRollForHeading=60.0

PitchForRoll=0.23

FormationSpeedForPosition=0.8

FormationSpeedForRate=0.5

GunnerFireChance=80

GunnerFireTime=2.5

GunnerAimOffset=0.0050

 

As you can see the Gunner fire chance and fire time may be tuned. You can reduce their fire chance a bit. I think the fire time is a two edge sword, It should increase the time to fire but I am not sure it if also screws up with the burst time overing the gun burst amount.

 

Also look at the individual plane data ini file for the gunner and gun variables. This is an example of one of the gunners in the Ju-88A4

 

[NoseGunner]

SystemType=GUNNER_STATION

PilotModelName=

SeatID=5

GunnerID=3

SetCockpitPosition=FALSE

PitchModelNodeName=Gun_Nose

YawModelNodeName=Gun_Nose

GunRange=2000

PitchAngleRate=65

MaxPitch=35

MinPitch=-20

DefaultPitchAngle=10

YawLimited=TRUE

YawAngleRate=75

MaxYaw=20

MinYaw=-20

DefaultYawAngle=0

 

Variables to play are the gun range, try reducing it to 1000 (meters) and the pitch and yaw angle rates. Try reducing the angle rates to about 30 and see how they behave. The faster the angle rate, the faster the gunner moves and tracks your plane.

 

Look at the gun section. Example

 

[NoseGun]

SystemType=FLEXIBLE_GUN

GunTypeName=7.9MM_MG17

MuzzlePosition=0.00,4.10,0.28

LightPosition=0.00,4.15,0.28

TracerLoading=5

BurstAmount=50

GunnerID=3

MaxAmmo=1000

 

I would reduce the burst amount, 50 is a bit too high for the MG17, try something like 10. I don't know if the current SFP1 engine supports the FE Reload variables for drum fed guns. I would reduce the MaxAmmo a bit too.

 

See if that helps with the bomber gunner accuracy

[+Baltika 85]

Capun,

 

Thanks very much for the input - a lot to think about there. I will play around with the changes you suggest and see how I get on.

 

Cheers,

 

baltika

 

PS forgive my ignorance, but where does the [AIDATA] section go? In the aircraft Data.ini?

 

EDIT: Sorry, found it!

Edited June 13, 2007 by Baltika

[Bandy 3]

Some questions/comments for anyone else also enjoying this campaign as much as I am:

 

1) Every campaign mission I've flown (at least a dozen) has been cloudless, but I am able to call up any weather via single mission. So is this a bug for all of you?

 

2) Flying over London, there are vast urban spaces with no 3D buildings, yet the surrounding urban tiles have dozens...

 

3) I seem to remember reading somewhere that numerous P-40's were given to the UK on lend-lease very early in the war. Did none of them take part in BoB? Or were they all sent to N.Africa or the Pacific? Just a trivia question...

 

4) anyone else try to fly under the Tower Bridge??? It can't be done...

 

This is my first WWII SF mod, I was very surprised to see a 109 invert, take a head-on shot at me, then split-arse it out of there, not once but twice. The first SOB got lucky and took me out... I was not expecting that kind of tactic from the AI...

Edited June 14, 2007 by B Bandy RFC

[BigRed 0]

B Brandy,

In answer to 3: Warhawk was the name the United States Army Air Corps adopted for all models, making it the official name in the United States for all P-40s. British Commonwealth air forces gave the name Tomahawk to models equivalent to the P-40B and P-40C and the name Kittyhawk to models equivalent to the P-40D and all later variants.

 

The P-40's lack of a two-stage supercharger made it inferior to Luftwaffe fighters in high altitude combat, and as such the P-40 was rarely used in operations in Northwest Europe. Between 1941 and 1944, however, the P-40 played a critical role with Allied air forces in five major theaters around the world: China, the Mediterranean Theater, the South East Asian Theater, the South West Pacific Area and in Eastern Europe.

 

P-40s first saw service with the British Commonwealth squadrons of the Desert Air Force, in August 1941.[2] The P-40's poor performance at high altitudes was not as critical in North Africa and the Middle East, where its bomb load, armour and good range were beneficial. The Royal Air Force's No. 112 Squadron was the first to fly Tomahawks in North Africa. The squadron copied the "shark mouth" nose markings used by Luftwaffe Me 110 Zerstörer units. The logo was later used on P-40s by the Flying Tigers in China.

and the question about the 109 inverted, the 109 had a fuel injected engine vice British and other countries which at that time still had gravity feed engines. so, a favorite tactic for the germans was to roll and dive and they wouldn't lose power whereas the spitfire and hurricane would initially lose power if they did that due to no gravity and hence a lose of fuel flow. needless to say, the Allies quickly learned the lesson.

So the sim seems very accurate to me in that respect.

Cheers

[Bandy 3]

So the sim seems very accurate to me in that respect.

 

No argument from me re: relative accuracy of the sim, and the comment wasn't criticism, I was just blown away (literally the first time...) by the maneuver displayed. I hadn't seen that one in FE...

 

Again, anyone seeing clouds in campaign missions? Or is my install buggered???

[+Tailspin 3]

Don't mean to be a smart-arse BigRed, but you've got it backwards. Actually it was the Merlin engined Brit planes that had to roll inverted and dive to avoid temporary engine cutouts. You are correct about the "gravity" (actually the fuel was pressurized...its more about how a carburetor works) feed vs. the fuel injection but it was the action of attempting to nose over from level flight (forward stick=negative Gs) that caused the Brit planes to cut out and lose power. The action of the nose going straight down (negative G's) caused the reaction of the fuel in the carburetor to float to the top and interrupt fuel flow. In the fuel injected Luftwaffe planes the pilot could slam the stick forward without worry of power loss. The advantage the Luftwaffe had was they could dive quicker when pursued by simply nosing over while the Brits had to roll over first then pull back.

[+Baltika 85]

No argument from me re: relative accuracy of the sim, and the comment wasn't criticism, I was just blown away (literally the first time...) by the maneuver displayed. I hadn't seen that one in FE...

 

Again, anyone seeing clouds in campaign missions? Or is my install buggered???

 

Hi Bandy,

 

As to the weather, the campaign will create weather conditions relative to the date. The campaign starts in early July, and missions are assigned at the rate of one per day - it was higher at the height of the Battle, but one a day seemed a reasonable compromise - so you are flying mainly through July and August, or the height of summer. OK, British weather isn't that reliable, but it was one of the hottest summers on record at the time

 

If you are getting variable weather on single missions by altering the weather settings, there is nothing wrong with your install.

 

If you are still in the game by September, the weather should get steadily worse!

 

Cheers,

 

baltika

 

 

PS

 

19 July 1940, Near Dover:-

 

Edited June 15, 2007 by Baltika

[BigRed 0]

You are correct tailspin. I explained it wrong :)

[keith 0]

Guys

 

Not sure if this is the right thread/forum but I was flying the ME109 last night and could hardly control it at all! The plane is twitchy enough but the slightest touch on the rudder had her yawing and oscillating all over the sky... Is it me?

 

Also, I can spend all evening pumping bullets into a JU-88 and large bits fall off, smoke billows out, both engines stop, but it just won't hit the dirt! Just cruises off back home! And the gunners still shoot at me even though I must have completely destroyed all human life aboard...

 

Please excuse if these are beginner questions but I am a beginner flyer!

[+Baltika 85]

Guys

 

Not sure if this is the right thread/forum but I was flying the ME109 last night and could hardly control it at all! The plane is twitchy enough but the slightest touch on the rudder had her yawing and oscillating all over the sky... Is it me?

 

Also, I can spend all evening pumping bullets into a JU-88 and large bits fall off, smoke billows out, both engines stop, but it just won't hit the dirt! Just cruises off back home! And the gunners still shoot at me even though I must have completely destroyed all human life aboard...

 

Please excuse if these are beginner questions but I am a beginner flyer!

 

 

Hi keith,

 

Yes, the 109 is tricky to fly, particularly on "hard" settings. You might want to check your controller sensitivity from the sound of things.

 

And, yes, the Ju 88 is a damn hard beast to shoot down. Of the three main bombers used by the Luftwaffe in BoB, it was the newest and carried significant amounts of armour plating, especially round crew compartments. According to Bungay's "The Greatest Enemy," the Ju-88 was quickly recognised by the RAF as the toughest bomber target. In the design stages, Udet had required it to be capable of dive-bombing, and accordingly the fuselage was significantly strengthened, doubling the weight of the plane to 12 to 13 tons. There are reports of Ju-88 crews making it back to base with their aircraft riddled with bullet holes from stem to stern.

 

The answer? The Mk 2 Hispano 20mm Cannon, but Spit and Hurri variants equipped with that did not enter general service until 1941. 19 Sqdn RAF experimented with an early version of the cannon until September 1940, but the spring-loaded ammo feed mechanism jammed repeatedly and was deemed too unreliable, and they went back to their 8 machine guns.

 

If you want to take a (non-historical) technological jump on the Luftwaffe, try downloading the A-team Spitfire 2B, which is cannon-armed. Get it here:-

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autom...mp;showfile=894

 

Install the plane to your BoB install as per readme instructions.

 

Then open the BoB_Data.ini file, (in the campaign folder) scroll down to [AirUnit005] and change "AircraftType=Spitfire1A" to read "AircraftType=Spitfire2B" (wthout the quotes).

 

Then open the BoB.ini file, also in the campaign folder, scroll down to [RAFUnit005] and make the same change. Save each file, fire up the campaign, and when you select 19 Sqdn RAF they should be equipped with the cannon-armed Spitfire2B. About a year too early, of course, but if you take it for a spin you should notice the difference when you open up with your cannon.

 

All completely non-historical of course, but it makes you realise why the boffins at Q Branch were so keen to come up with some bomber-destroying armament. Eventually, of course they did. Then things got ridiculous - the Typhoon Mark 1B has 2 20mm cannon on each wing, and will pretty much shred anything in sight.

 

Good luck!

 

baltika

Edited June 20, 2007 by Baltika

[keith 0]

Baltika

 

Thank you so much for your very helpful advice. I am just loving the BoB campaign - IL2 and BoB2WoV are all very well but it's nice to get a chance to win now and again!

 

Looking forward to v5.7, 5.8...........10.5

[+Baltika 85]

Glad you're enjoying it

 

v0.59 is just out (see the campaign hotfix download) and I am very gratified that others are joining in the fun by contributing - Allenjb42's new BoB Campaign music pack is fantastic - thanks Allen

 

v0.60 is now on the drawing board - once the modding bug bites you, it bites hard

 

If you spot any odd behaviour or bugs, please let me know.

 

Cheers,

 

Baltika

 

 

 

PS I hear what you're saying about BoBII:WoV, and IL-2, but even the SFP1 version is not without its challenges. Just try surviving a Stuka campaign

And, as you have discovered, those RAF intercept missions are not all that easy. . .

Edited June 20, 2007 by Baltika

[+Typhoid 231]

Glad you're enjoying it

 

v0.59 is just out (see the campaign hotfix download) and I am very gratified that others are joining in the fun by contributing - Allenjb42's new BoB Campaign music pack is fantastic - thanks Allen

 

v0.60 is now on the drawing board - once the modding bug bites you, it bites hard

 

If you spot any odd behaviour or bugs, please let me know.

 

Cheers,

 

Baltika

PS I hear what you're saying about BoBII:WoV, and IL-2, but even the SFP1 version is not without its challenges. Just try surviving a Stuka campaign

And, as you have discovered, those RAF intercept missions are not all that easy. . .

 

I was able to survive some campaigns with a very simple mod. I adjusted the campaign length.........

 

[keith 0]

Woo Hoo! Spitfire 2B! I can shred 4 JU-88s in 1 pass! Got the lot in 2 passes! I Am Invincible!

Huge grin on my face now!

At last it's worth taking off, cruising to the action and flying all the way home to touchdown...

[Bandy 3]

If you spot any odd behaviour or bugs, please let me know.

Baltika

 

Hi, I'm getting the Luftwaffe airbases scrunching up in a line, something you mentioned you were unable to recreate since the release [guess I win the prize? gimme, gimme...]. I fly mostly allied, so it doesn't really affect the missions as far as I can tell, and I can live with it. I will try the fix you posted above and will get back.

 

RE: cannon

 

As far as Spits and Hurricanes with cannons go, IMHO the "historical" door is open to implement them, even though with the Spits they were only experimentally used mid-way thru with 19 squadron, and then also issued to 92 squadron (apparently despite the earlier jamming issue). With Hurricanes, the first II series (mounting either 12 Brownings, or 4 x 20mm cannon) arrived in October. As we discussed in PM's this would be an awesome squadron upgrade!

 

Give 'em HE I say, and Tally-Ho!!!

[+Baltika 85]

Tally-Ho, indeed, chaps

 

Typhoid-

 

You are a rogue, sir, a rogue What an underhanded tactic

 

Seriously, though, that is an issue for developing the campaign - 90 missions at one per day was chosen as a reasonable compromise - RAF squadrons were flying three or four missions per day at the height of the battle, and likewise the Luftwaffe often launched more than one attack ina single day, BUT, RAF squadrons were at least sometimes rotated out of the frontline

if too heavy a toll was being taken on them. Luftwaffe pilots did not have that luxury, unless they were invited to Berlin to be awarded the Knight's Cross, which of course eventually took a terrible toll on experienced pilots as battle fatigue mounted up.

 

Perhaps I should look at adjusting the individual squadron's mission rate - hmm, any thoughts?

 

 

keith -

 

Well I can hardly complain "But that's cheating!" given that I told you how to go about doing it

 

It certainly makes a difference being loaded for bear, doesn't it? Bear in mind the RAF didn't have the option - and Typhoid at post #2 above claims to have bagged a couple of Ju-88s with his trusty machine guns, so it is possible (Well, over-claiming was rife on both sides in the Battle, as the top brass were well aware, so perhaps we shouldn't be surprised )

 

 

 

Bandy -

 

Darn! I thought I'd seen the last of that. As a dedicated pilot I take it you are reasonably far into a campaign before it happened? I suspect it has to do with the individual Force's overall supply level, and the SupplyForOffensive= value being reached - you may see in the BoB_Data.ini that overall supply values are on the low side - that is on purpose to avoid this happening. Have the RAF unilaterally decided to invade France yet?

 

If you are happy to do a bit of tweaking and sadly unpaid beta testing, try setting a high SupplyForOffensive= value for one force (say 200) and a very low one for the other Force (say 30 or so), and see what happens after a few missions. Let me know how you get on.

 

As to Squadron upgrades, capun on behalf of the A-team has agreed to allow me to release a Spit 1B mod of the A-team Spit 1A for use by 19 Sqdn, at least until September 1940. I am working on getting the weapons modded appropriately just now. The problem I am having is that my modded early cannon is too reliable. The Guneditor has a reliability setting, but it doesn't seem to effect anything in game - I can blaze away with my full ammo load no problem. To maintain balance, I want to set up a situation where, as happened, only two machines out of a squadron intercept were able to fire off all their cannon ammo. If you think that sounds frustrating, well, so did the pilots of 19 Sqdn.

 

Does anyone know if the gunjam code from FE is implemented in SFP1? If so, how do I get it working?

 

Roll on the next round of patches, I say!

 

(For the avoidance of doubt, none of my above comments are intended to cause offence, merely pull a leg or two - honest )

 

Toodle-pip for now,

 

baltika

 

PS, as to squadron upgrades, I will take a look at that - at least that is something which is no problem to implement!

Edited June 21, 2007 by Baltika

[+Baltika 85]

With Hurricanes, the first II series (mounting either 12 Brownings, or 4 x 20mm cannon) arrived in October. As we discussed in PM's this would be an awesome squadron upgrade!

 

I'm having trouble finding out which squadrons got the Hurri II in October 1940 - any ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

baltika

[+Typhoid 231]

"Typhoid-

 

You are a rogue, sir, a rogue What an underhanded tactic "

 

HA!

 

 

At Topgun we had a sign that had Rules for Air Combat

 

#1 was "Cheat"

 

and "There are no points for Second Place"

 

the last was "Cheat some more"

 

seriously, on the number of missions you probably are right to put it up there at that level for realism. But when someone like me with not a lot of time to play a couple of missions at a time only a few times a week, it would take forever and a day to get through a campaign. So I've tweaked the campaign lengths so I can get through one once in a Blue Moon.

[Bandy 3]

RE: number of missions:

I also think one a day is fine, but two wouldn't make too much of a difference given that the whole campaign is short --BUT INTENSE!!!

 

RE: Hurricane squadrons with 12 guns, others with cannons, in October, I'll try to find more (it was one of those factoids you stumble across online...) though would be just as happy if somebody else already knew... And I'm sure somebody else does, they just haven't seen the thread...

 

RE: Luft Bombers in game play

Not sure where "reality" is on this issue (or if we can ever approach it in ANY sim) but it is a good place to start thinking about the issue.

Most books or sources I've read recently say the German bombers were under gunned, and "sitting ducks", especially the Stuka.

Many sources also say some pretty good things about the structural integrity of the German bombers, except the Stuka (see where I'm going?)

That all said, even Stuka's are a relative challenge until you learn to get underneath, flame one, and break up the formation, unless a 109 sneaks up on yer 6... 'nough said there... :blush2:

 

I've been trying to find definitive facts on which planes had crew and engine armour, which AC had self-sealing (SS) petrol tanks since not all did at the time! Hurricanes' and Spits wing tanks were SS, but not the Hurricane fuselage tank tho most were being replaced with SS tanks thru-out BoB. Bf 109 seems to only get SS tanks intro'd in 1942, perhaps attempting to max out range before that...). It is very interesting to mod the aircraft like so and see how the "play" changes. I've been "Hurricane Burned" many times... Too bad the "eject" sucks in SF... That said, it is a very compelling part of the BoB story, and how those pilots' recovered... I'm sure there are equally brave stories on the German side since they were pancaking in the channel all summer, fall, and winter...

 

RE: German pilots. One book I read mentioned that there were only 2 battle green pilots out of all the Luftwaffe pilots captured in the early stages in July/August. That must have terrified fighter command...

 

So, well, maybe game balance is a better perspective to take than too historically based, eh? It comes down to personal taste I suppose. Meanwhile I continue to tweak and have a BLAST!

 

Many thanks to all the 3rd party folks who've made this possible...

[+Tailspin 3]

Another thing to consider about the German bombers in the sim....

 

If you will take a look at the Data.inis you will find that all of them have a StructuralFactor of anywhere from 3.0 to 6.0 added to their component damage. This means that they take 3 to 6 times the amount of hit points ABOVE normal to achieve the given damage rating. In addition to this some components are also given ARMOR values thus adding more to the hit points required to do damage. If you look at the Brit fighters, they have no such increase in StructuralFactor or armor. So the rifle caliber guns of the British planes are required to inflict as much as 6 times (or more in the case of armored components) the damage to the German bombers as the rifle caliber guns of the German bombers are to achieve the same results. Hardly seems fair. In other words...IMHO the damage models for the bombers need a little tweaking.