Guest capun Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 Start with a plane with a performance similar to it as a base and then start modifying it. Pay attention to the animationID's and mesh names. Gear/Wheel/Tire names are critical otherwise they'll sink/jump and explode. Have the 3D Dev give you the ini file with the points helper for the pilot location, muzzle flash, weapon points, wing tip vortices, engine exhaust, etc. Quote
+nele Posted July 26, 2007 Posted July 26, 2007 Some surface deflections for MiG-9; Ailerons-up 22.5, down 14.5 deg Rudder ± 25 deg elevators up 18, down 15 deg. Great article in Russian at http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig9.html 2xRD-20 800kg thrust each Nele Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 Thanks fellas/fellattes. This is deep stuff. The collision boxes I could come up with using the external free camera view and watching the debug display position vector numbers. Tables I fully understand, but not the different Cd variables. I guess work down the list. First are the Reference dimensions at the top which I can figure. Inertia, I don't know. Quote
+Fubar512 Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 Thanks fellas/fellattes. This is deep stuff. The collision boxes I could come up with using the external free camera view and watching the debug display position vector numbers. Tables I fully understand, but not the different Cd variables. I guess work down the list. First are the Reference dimensions at the top which I can figure. Inertia, I don't know. The absolute best (and most expedient way) to create hit boxes is from precise measurements made off accurate 3-view drawings. They will also be of great help when computing out Xmac tables, and also, to ensure correct placement of fuel tanks and engines for damage modeling. Charles wrote a brief tutorial on "guesstimating" the inertia values. You'll find it at Third Wire's site. Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 Charles wrote a brief tutorial on "guesstimating" the inertia values. You'll find it at Third Wire's site. Right, I think I have that. I didn't even think of it. Thanks. Quote
Guest capun Posted July 27, 2007 Posted July 27, 2007 To be truly correct, You need to have access to the 3D Model to have the Collision Points and Min/Max Extent Positions since they are referenced from the 3DS Max World Center point. In most cases the Wing span is centered in the X-axis, but the Y-Axis (Lenght) may not truly be centered since you are guessing where the CoG is, same applies for the Z-Axis (Height). So the placement of the Model in 3DS Max will affect the Collision Points and Min/Max Extent Positions You can guess by other points defined in the data ini (usually provided by the 3D Designer) like the pilot location, decal location, etc. Quote
+Timmy Posted July 28, 2007 Author Posted July 28, 2007 The model is centered in max so the wings have the same relative coordinates - positive and negative values for left and right or vice versa - I can't remember which is which without looking at it. If I need to extract points so Lex can place them in the ini I'll be happy to do it. Quote
+Wrench Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 Timmy: I've 2 versions of the Fargo hangar screen ready, the original which has a pic of 9L trainer, and one without. I'll get them uploaded later today, and send you a link via PM, so you'll have both to choose from. Wrench kevin stein Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted July 28, 2007 Posted July 28, 2007 Timmy, the collison box points would be fine. Thanks. Wrench, those -9 screens, the old ones from long ago? They have been looking for a home for a long time. Quote
Sgt.KAR98 Posted July 30, 2007 Posted July 30, 2007 Great! Just 1 more MiG to complete the family. Quote
+Fubar512 Posted August 18, 2007 Posted August 18, 2007 How goes this one? By the thrust of two RD-20s Quote
+Timmy Posted August 20, 2007 Author Posted August 20, 2007 I've got it mapped - just have to paint the skin when I get a spare minute. Quote
+Timmy Posted August 20, 2007 Author Posted August 20, 2007 (edited) Thanks to the awesome new program by p10ppy I now have min/max extent positions on the mig. Fuselage MinExtentPosition=-0.733,-4.84,-1.176 MaxExtentPosition=0.733,1.333,0.351 Nose MinExtentPosition=-0.803,1.329,-1.215 MaxExtentPosition=0.803,4.411,0.335 RightCannonCover MinExtentPosition=0.307,3.743,-0.994 MaxExtentPosition=0.415,4.287,-0.869 RightCannon MinExtentPosition=0.337,4.191,-0.965 MaxExtentPosition=0.397,5.084,-0.905 LeftCannonCover MinExtentPosition=-0.423,3.743,-0.994 MaxExtentPosition=-0.315,4.287,-0.869 LeftCannon MinExtentPosition=-0.397,4.191,-0.965 MaxExtentPosition=-0.337,5.084,-0.905 Cannon MinExtentPosition=-0.059,4.317,-0.447 MaxExtentPosition=0.059,5.448,-0.32 Windscreen MinExtentPosition=-0.309,2.616,0.179 MaxExtentPosition=0.309,3.174,0.532 FrontGlass MinExtentPosition=-0.297,2.644,0.217 MaxExtentPosition=0.297,3.154,0.509 Fronttop MinExtentPosition=-0.069,2.666,0.496 MaxExtentPosition=0.069,2.705,0.524 CanopyFrame MinExtentPosition=-0.34,1.29,0.179 MaxExtentPosition=0.34,2.647,0.541 Bubble MinExtentPosition=-0.322,1.345,0.234 MaxExtentPosition=0.322,2.63,0.558 Headrest MinExtentPosition=-0.076,1.869,0.299 MaxExtentPosition=0.076,1.894,0.443 AntennaBase MinExtentPosition=0.359,2.001,0.104 MaxExtentPosition=0.442,2.092,0.171 Antenna MinExtentPosition=0.372,1.672,0.077 MaxExtentPosition=0.731,2.117,0.768 NoseDoor MinExtentPosition=-0.088,3.671,-1.052 MaxExtentPosition=0.088,3.993,-0.981 RightNoseDoor MinExtentPosition=0.0,2.79,-1.137 MaxExtentPosition=0.171,3.671,-1.043 LeftNoseDoor MinExtentPosition=-0.171,2.79,-1.137 MaxExtentPosition=0.0,3.671,-1.043 NoseStrut MinExtentPosition=-0.035,3.699,-0.833 MaxExtentPosition=0.035,3.961,-0.7 CastoringNode MinExtentPosition=-0.035,3.462,-0.979 MaxExtentPosition=0.035,3.739,-0.765 NoseFork MinExtentPosition=-0.105,3.23,-0.987 MaxExtentPosition=0.106,3.553,-0.668 NoseWheel MinExtentPosition=-0.068,2.991,-0.988 MaxExtentPosition=0.068,3.533,-0.445 Cockpit MinExtentPosition=-0.33,1.827,-0.507 MaxExtentPosition=0.33,2.788,0.316 GunsightMount MinExtentPosition=-0.044,2.571,0.214 MaxExtentPosition=0.044,2.651,0.247 Gunsight MinExtentPosition=-0.04,2.579,0.225 MaxExtentPosition=0.04,2.693,0.373 GunGlass MinExtentPosition=-0.032,2.633,0.367 MaxExtentPosition=0.032,2.684,0.454 Gunsightreflector MinExtentPosition=-0.035,2.618,0.344 MaxExtentPosition=0.035,2.688,0.353 NoseGearBay MinExtentPosition=-0.171,2.79,-1.137 MaxExtentPosition=0.171,3.993,-0.548 RightScoop MinExtentPosition=0.588,-0.29,-0.604 MaxExtentPosition=0.734,0.035,-0.414 RightEngine MinExtentPosition=0.032,-0.479,-1.132 MaxExtentPosition=0.664,0.175,-0.516 LeftScoop MinExtentPosition=-0.758,-0.281,-0.595 MaxExtentPosition=-0.62,0.033,-0.437 LeftEngine MinExtentPosition=-0.674,-0.479,-1.132 MaxExtentPosition=-0.042,0.175,-0.516 LeftWing MinExtentPosition=-2.853,-0.801,-0.494 MaxExtentPosition=-0.53,1.686,-0.149 LeftFlap MinExtentPosition=-2.859,-0.716,-0.401 MaxExtentPosition=-0.833,0.275,-0.207 LeftWheelDoor MinExtentPosition=-2.136,0.479,-0.417 MaxExtentPosition=-1.758,1.207,-0.356 LeftMainGear MinExtentPosition=-1.448,0.957,-0.515 MaxExtentPosition=-0.714,1.037,-0.229 LeftMainBolt MinExtentPosition=-1.323,1.019,-0.381 MaxExtentPosition=-1.282,1.099,-0.35 LeftMainFrontHy MinExtentPosition=-1.299,1.058,-0.4 MaxExtentPosition=-0.728,1.105,-0.329 LeftMainBolt2 MinExtentPosition=-1.056,0.901,-0.383 MaxExtentPosition=-1.013,0.981,-0.351 LeftMainHinge MinExtentPosition=-1.813,0.763,-0.407 MaxExtentPosition=-1.343,1.048,-0.334 LeftMainWheel MinExtentPosition=-2.084,0.527,-0.361 MaxExtentPosition=-1.446,1.172,-0.203 LeftMainRearHy MinExtentPosition=-1.363,0.869,-0.415 MaxExtentPosition=-1.037,0.96,-0.326 LeftGearWell MinExtentPosition=-2.136,0.479,-0.471 MaxExtentPosition=-0.723,1.213,-0.235 LeftOuterWing MinExtentPosition=-5.064,-0.149,-0.37 MaxExtentPosition=-2.849,1.605,-0.126 LeftAileron MinExtentPosition=-4.82,-0.149,-0.312 MaxExtentPosition=-2.853,0.67,-0.161 LeftGearDoor MinExtentPosition=-1.769,0.479,-0.471 MaxExtentPosition=-0.728,1.207,-0.368 VertTail MinExtentPosition=-0.093,-4.84,0.071 MaxExtentPosition=0.093,-2.142,1.698 AntennaWire MinExtentPosition=-0.007,-4.5,0.162 MaxExtentPosition=0.73,1.912,1.609 Rudder MinExtentPosition=-0.082,-5.38,-0.221 MaxExtentPosition=0.082,-4.776,1.665 LeftStab MinExtentPosition=-1.877,-4.864,0.443 MaxExtentPosition=0.0,-3.653,0.565 LeftElevator MinExtentPosition=-1.877,-5.23,0.451 MaxExtentPosition=0.0,-4.753,0.533 RightStab MinExtentPosition=0.0,-4.864,0.443 MaxExtentPosition=1.877,-3.653,0.565 RightElevator MinExtentPosition=0.0,-5.23,0.451 MaxExtentPosition=1.877,-4.753,0.533 RightWing MinExtentPosition=0.53,-0.801,-0.494 MaxExtentPosition=2.853,1.686,-0.149 RightGearWell MinExtentPosition=0.723,0.479,-0.471 MaxExtentPosition=2.135,1.213,-0.235 RightFlap MinExtentPosition=0.833,-0.716,-0.401 MaxExtentPosition=2.859,0.275,-0.207 RightOuterWing MinExtentPosition=2.849,-0.149,-0.37 MaxExtentPosition=5.064,1.605,-0.126 RightAileron MinExtentPosition=2.853,-0.149,-0.312 MaxExtentPosition=4.82,0.67,-0.161 Pitot MinExtentPosition=4.275,1.493,-0.227 MaxExtentPosition=4.315,2.083,-0.193 RightGearDoor MinExtentPosition=0.728,0.479,-0.471 MaxExtentPosition=1.769,1.207,-0.368 RightWheelDoor MinExtentPosition=1.758,0.479,-0.417 MaxExtentPosition=2.136,1.207,-0.356 RightMainGear MinExtentPosition=0.723,0.957,-0.417 MaxExtentPosition=1.448,1.037,-0.312 RightMainBolt2 MinExtentPosition=1.013,0.901,-0.383 MaxExtentPosition=1.056,0.981,-0.351 RightMainBolt MinExtentPosition=1.282,1.019,-0.381 MaxExtentPosition=1.324,1.099,-0.35 RightMainFrontHy MinExtentPosition=0.736,1.058,-0.4 MaxExtentPosition=1.298,1.105,-0.33 RightMainHinge MinExtentPosition=1.344,0.763,-0.406 MaxExtentPosition=1.813,1.048,-0.334 RightMainRearHy MinExtentPosition=1.038,0.869,-0.415 MaxExtentPosition=1.363,0.96,-0.326 RightMainWheel MinExtentPosition=1.446,0.527,-0.361 MaxExtentPosition=2.084,1.172,-0.203 TailDest MinExtentPosition=-0.03,-4.84,0.064 MaxExtentPosition=0.057,-3.619,0.625 DropTank MinExtentPosition=-4.991,-0.034,-0.699 MaxExtentPosition=-4.571,1.966,-0.289 Plylon MinExtentPosition=-4.819,0.702,-0.39 MaxExtentPosition=-4.756,1.537,-0.198 The last two I'm just working on as I've seen some drop tanks on a couple of pictures. I could probably use a hand on getting them into the proper format for game use. Also - I'm moving this week so I have my hands full and probably will for the next couple of weeks. If anyone is interested in making the skins from the bare maps I'll be happy to send them to you. Edited August 20, 2007 by Timmy Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted August 29, 2007 Posted August 29, 2007 I'm back. Dropped everything SF related. I followed the StrikeFighters Editing guide and got the rather small inertia values below. The other data is from Yefim Gordon's early sov jet book. The inertia values are slug-ft-ft, but isnt everything in the DATA file MKS? Initial testing shows takeoff in a bit under 2km. Yefim says 1.7km. Altitude gain is bad, but that's could be engine detail. The roll is MUCH better now (was waaayy too fast using F-80 data if I recall). [AircraftData] EmptyMass=3500 EmptyInertia=5900,9500,13000 // F-80C EmptyInertia=12213.50,7497.13,19710.62 ReferenceArea=18.2 ReferenceSpan=10.0 ReferenceLength=9.75 Timmy:: :: : : DropTank MinExtentPosition=-4.991,-0.034,-0.699 MaxExtentPosition=-4.571,1.966,-0.289 Plylon MinExtentPosition=-4.819,0.702,-0.39 MaxExtentPosition=-4.756,1.537,-0.198 The last two I'm just working on as I've seen some drop tanks on a couple of pictures. I could probably use a hand on getting them into the proper format for game use. Blessed be your move. I had things come up too, plus, a little SF-esque burnout perhaps. Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted August 29, 2007 Posted August 29, 2007 MiG-9 had ten fuel tanks which is a bit deep for a survey sim, and I don't know their exact locations. So I use Pasko's existing three F-80 tanks. Using 0.86kg/l for kerosene, I gave the MiG-9... Fuselage tank -- 1050kg. Wing tank -- 160kg each. Total 1370kg, divided by 0.86kg/l is volume 1593l which is close to Yefim's 1595l. About 3000lb as seen in game data. I used well less than half that cruising round at full throttle at high altitude in about 3/4 hour, so some increase in fuel consumption are needed. Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted August 29, 2007 Posted August 29, 2007 (edited) MiG-9 had a pair of 260l external tanks on the wingtips. For now, I'm testing with 75gal P-51 tank (about 360 liters). I eliminated all other weapon stations, leaving only the two -- Left/Right Wing Tip Station //Weapon Stations --------------------------------------------------------- [LeftWingTipStation] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=1 StationGroupID=1 StationType=EXTERNAL AttachmentPosition=-5.00,1.00,-0.22 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=500 AllowedWeaponClass=FT AttachmentType=Soviet ModelNodeName=LeftWingPylon PylonMass=25 PylonDragArea=0.03 FuelTankName=Tank075_P51 [RightWingTipStation] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=2 StationGroupID=1 StationType=EXTERNAL AttachmentPosition=5.00,1.00,-0.22 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=500 AllowedWeaponClass=FT AttachmentType=Soviet ModelNodeName=RightWingPylon PylonMass=25 PylonDragArea=0.03 FuelTankName=Tank075_P51 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [AirToAir] Loadout[01].WeaponType=Tank075_P51 Loadout[01].Quantity=1 Loadout[02].WeaponType=Tank075_P51 Loadout[02].Quantity=1 No tank pylons, but they wouldn't be visible from the cockpit anyways. Timmy, please do NOT make external tanks perma-fixed to the external model. I believe these could be dropped if needed. Edited August 29, 2007 by Lexx_Luthor Quote
+Timmy Posted August 29, 2007 Author Posted August 29, 2007 I have the tanks modeled with small pylons but can export them as a seperate lod. The thing I'm not sure about is if I need to export the pylons with the plane or also as a seperate item and then use the weps editor to put them in the game. I'll figure it out but for now I'm focused on skinning so that can wait for a bit. Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted August 29, 2007 Posted August 29, 2007 I have the tanks modeled with small pylons but can export them as a seperate lod. The thing I'm not sure about is if I need to export the pylons with the plane or also as a seperate item and then use the weps editor to put them in the game. I'll figure it out but for now I'm focused on skinning so that can wait for a bit. If looking for shortcuts, you could probably just perma-fix the pylons as part of the model, allowing jettisonable tanks. Its only two, or are they really large? I'm reading through the Yefim book, about 1/3 of it covers the -9, so lots of reading to do. I'll look for unloaded pylons in the pics. Quote
+Timmy Posted August 29, 2007 Author Posted August 29, 2007 Here is what I came up with for drop tanks and pylons... Quote
Guest capun Posted August 29, 2007 Posted August 29, 2007 I have the tanks modeled with small pylons but can export them as a seperate lod. The thing I'm not sure about is if I need to export the pylons with the plane or also as a seperate item and then use the weps editor to put them in the game. I'll figure it out but for now I'm focused on skinning so that can wait for a bit. You make the Pylons part of the airplane 3D Model, the tanks can be done in their own since they are a "weapon" Your pylons wil be visible or invisible via the ini, if declared properly. They are visible only when you are carrying a weapon load. What you can do with the ini files is amazing for example you can have two types of pylons in the same space, one larger pylon for bombs/fuel tanks and another for rockets/missiles. Depending on the loadout and with proper data ini entries only one get selected. For example, this came from our Meteor F.8 [LeftWingStation3a] SystemType=WEAPON_STATION StationID=9 StationGroupID=1 StationType=EXTERNAL AttachmentPosition=-3.8100,0.0000,-0.5044 AttachmentAngles=0.0,0.0,0.0 LoadLimit=470.0 DiameterLimit=0.7 LengthLimit=2.0 AllowedWeaponClass=BOMB,FT AttachmentType=NATO ModelNodeName=Pylon_L ; You need to declare the pylon mesh for it to be able to be invisible w/o a load. PylonMass=40 PylonDragArea=0.02 FuelTankName=Tank108_P51 Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Wow. Timmy that's a nice drop tank and sweet pylon. If you do what capun says, update me. I didn't know how this operates exactly. My Yefim book only shows pylons when the tanks are loaded -- no empty pylons in any of the pics. Quote
+Timmy Posted August 30, 2007 Author Posted August 30, 2007 Capun - Thanks man, you have always been tremendously helpful and have considerably shortened my model building learning curve, I am very greatful. Lexx - I only have one picture of the drop tanks so I don't know if they are accurate or not but from tinkering with the model I think the pylon has to be that large so as to not interfere with the ailerons. I assure you that I will make a LOD with the pylons and one with the tanks so we can use them on the finished aircraft - I've even already mapped them both... The problem lies in the fact that the real world is taking a rather large chunk out of my buttocks right now so free moments to work on the MiG are pretty much like hillbilly teeth (few and far between) right now. I'm getting it skinned slowly but anything that is going to look decent will take some time - and making a template from scratch takes quite a bit of time and trial and error - sadly, exactly what I'm lacking right now... Once I get the house in reasonable shape I'll be able to finish the MiG and reveal my other project which is about 75% complete :) Quote
Lexx_Luthor Posted August 30, 2007 Posted August 30, 2007 Finish the house first. I got distracted too the last few weeks. I'm only doing little pieces of DATA file here and there, the easy stuff first. I'm in no rush here, as I can see the steep wall to climb learning this. But it does look interesting, and its stuff I kinda need to learn. Quote
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