Brainless question?

[+Brainless 1]

I downloaded the F-86A-5 from this site and firstly have to say that as usual the a/c is superbly detailed and a joy to fly but I have a question about its performance in WOE. I'm building a single set of loosely historical missions in the Edwards terrain and made one with 'Mig vs Sabre' at what I believe from my web research is the correct altitudes for these dogfights viz:- 38,000ft -40,000ft but My Sabre and for that matter the Mig is struggling to get up to these heights and when up to altitude (38,000ft) is barely able to reach 200kts. According to my research the Sabre and Mig were capable of 600 plus mph at these altitudes so why can't I fly at these speeds? Is there some sort of restriction in the thirdwire game engine?

 

I know you guys have the answer and look forward to a reply.

 

All the best

 

Brainless

[+Brainless 1]

I downloaded the F-86A-5 from this site and firstly have to say that as usual the a/c is superbly detailed and a joy to fly but I have a question about its performance in WOE. I'm building a single set of loosely historical missions in the Edwards terrain and made one with 'Mig vs Sabre' at what I believe from my web research is the correct altitudes for these dogfights viz:- 38,000ft -40,000ft but My Sabre and for that matter the Mig is struggling to get up to these heights and when up to altitude (38,000ft) is barely able to reach 200kts. According to my research the Sabre and Mig were capable of 600 plus mph at these altitudes so why can't I fly at these speeds? Is there some sort of restriction in the thirdwire game engine?

 

I know you guys have the answer and look forward to a reply.

 

All the best

 

Brainless

 

PS. Sorry guys the Sabres I downloaded from here were the F-86F-15 and F-86E-10 NA (not F-86A-5) but the issues are the same as regards speed

and altitude

[Wrench 9,801]

"You think you got problems, look at these boots!!!??"

 

"I just paid you a fiver for an argument!"

"No you didn't"

"Yes I did!"

"Sorry, times up."

"No it's not!"

"I could be argueing on my own time"

 

"What a silly concept!"

 

and off we go!!

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

ps: sorry to hijack, but I couldn't resist a pythonism

[firehawkordy 34]

"You think you got problems, look at these boots!!!??"

 

"I just paid you a fiver for an argument!"

"No you didn't"

"Yes I did!"

"Sorry, times up."

"No it's not!"

"I could be argueing on my own time"

 

"What a silly concept!"

 

and off we go!!

 

Wrench

kevin stein

 

ps: sorry to hijack, but I couldn't resist a pythonism

 

Yes, well thats the kind Philistine pig-ignorance I've come to expect of you non-creative garbage. You, you excrement! you sit on your lothesome spotted behind squeezing blackheads not giving a tinkers cuss about the struggling young pilot. Well I wouldn't be a Freemason now if you got on your hands and knees and begged me!

 

See what you started? I hope you're happy.

[Wrench 9,801]

 

And the worst thing is, we never answered the poor guys questions!!!

 

Sorry Brainless, the temptation was just too great!!! An opportunity not to be missed!! My apologies, but it's just too much fun!

 

Wrench

kevin stein

[Fubar512 1,350]

Brainless,

 

Do yourself a favor, and read up on "Knots vs MPH". While you're at it, look up "True airspeed vs Indicated Airspeed".

[+Brainless 1]

Well thanks a bunch guys now I Know the answer ( I don't think).

 

What I do know is that the difference between mph & knots isn't threefold in the conversion.

 

Now you've all had a laugh at my expenses perhaps one of you would be kind enough to address the question seriously.

[Fubar512 1,350]

Well thanks a bunch guys now I Know the answer ( I don't think).

 

What I do know is that the difference between mph & knots isn't threefold in the conversion.

 

Now you've all had a laugh at my expenses perhaps one of you would be kind enough to address the question seriously.

 

1 Knot = 1.15 MPH. Now that we've cleared that, did you even bother to research the difference between IAS and TAS? This question seems to come up every two weeks, and the majority of the experienced hands have answered it often enough to have grown quite weary of doing so.

 

To answer your question, Vmax for an F-86 in clean configuration at 38,000 feet is about 270 knots Indicated Air Speed. That translates to 516 knots True Air Speed, or 593 mph.

[+Brainless 1]

Well thanks Furbar512 at least that's helpful but I'm not getting anywhere near 270 kts at 38,000ft its more like 145kts. To reach 270kts you've got to be at 38,000ft at full throtle for ages with the speed creeping up at one kt increment per minute. Is this really a true reflection of the performance? I'd have to take off from Japan and fly for something like threequarters of an hour to reach 600mph over Korea at that's after a twenty minute or so climb to get to altitude!

[Fubar512 1,350]

Early turbojets were quite inefficient when compared to modern power plants. They generated a fraction of their sea-level thrust at altitude, were slow to spool up (upwards of 10 seconds from idle to mil power) , and often caught fire or quit when subjected to rapid throttle changes.

 

Also, In real life, missions over North Korea were flown at full throttle from takeoff until landing, or flame out. In fact, it wasn't unusual for Sabre pilots to have to glide as far as 50 nm to a forward base, because they had flamed out over NK!

 

That being said, the existing F-86F FM was penned up over four years ago. I have an updated version in the works.

[+Brainless 1]

Early turbojets were quite inefficient when compared to modern power plants. They generated a fraction of their sea-level thrust at altitude, were slow to spool up (upwards of 10 seconds from idle to mil power) , and often caught fire or quit when subjected to rapid throttle changes.

 

Also, In real life, missions over North Korea were flown at full throttle from takeoff until landing, or flame out. In fact, it wasn't unusual for Sabre pilots to have to glide as far as 50 nm to a forward base, because they had flamed out over NK!

 

That being said, the existing F-86F FM was penned up over four years ago. I have an updated version in the works.

 

Thanks for all your information which is what I had thought . My comments were based on what I had learned during internet research for the Korean war mission files I've been building. I have to say that some of my earlier comments were a bit rash . I have created a test flight in the Korean terrain - details below but I expect this is of little value as no doubt you already know the information.

 

I used the ‘Edwards’ payware Korean terrain starting from Itazuke AB @ 9.00am.

 

Here are the details:-

 

Cruise altitude 40,000ft

Time to reach cruise altitude approx 13 mins

Configuration at cruise altitude – clean ( tanks dropped after reaching cruise altitude )

Weather scattered cloud

Thrust – maximum throttle after take off and at all stages of flight.

Max speed IAS at 40,000ft 231/232 kts constant maximum airspeed obtainable in straight level flight.

As you can see this doesn’t convert to 600mph at this altitude or even near it!!

Any attempt to manoeuvre the aircraft results in a dramatic loss of airspeed although I accept that this may be a true characteristic of early jet fighters.

 

So as far as I can see from this test the aircraft is set somewhat below true performance which is where we started.

 

P.S. To kevin I haven't forgotten your input to this. I'll get you back one day no doubt

[Guest Tazkiller]

Thanks for all your information which is what I had thought . My comments were based on what I had learned during internet research for the Korean war mission files I've been building. I have to say that some of my earlier comments were a bit rash . I have created a test flight in the Korean terrain - details below but I expect this is of little value as no doubt you already know the information.

 

I used the 'Edwards' payware Korean terrain starting from Itazuke AB @ 9.00am.

 

Here are the details:-

 

Cruise altitude 40,000ft

Time to reach cruise altitude approx 13 mins

Configuration at cruise altitude – clean ( tanks dropped after reaching cruise altitude )

Weather scattered cloud

Thrust – maximum throttle after take off and at all stages of flight.

Max speed IAS at 40,000ft 231/232 kts constant maximum airspeed obtainable in straight level flight.

As you can see this doesn't convert to 600mph at this altitude or even near it!!

Any attempt to manoeuvre the aircraft results in a dramatic loss of airspeed although I accept that this may be a true characteristic of early jet fighters.

 

So as far as I can see from this test the aircraft is set somewhat below true performance which is where we started.

 

P.S. To kevin I haven't forgotten your input to this. I'll get you back one day no doubt

 

Brianless,

 

Hello.

 

I also am a Sabre freak!!!!

 

Most of the discouragement you face is an inaccurate flight model and the way the simulation is set up. Plus the actual shortcomings of the simulation itself.

 

There is a NEW complete Sabre Package in the works.

 

Completely New flight model and corrected files.

 

Featured will be every major variant of the F-86. F-86A-5, E-01, E-05, E-06, E-10, F-01, F-10, F-30 Slatted and 6-3 wing variants, F-35, F-40. Plus D, K, L variants.

 

Also included will be uprgaded MiG-15 to fight against.

 

Early Sabres (A and E) models will feature a V-windscreen.

 

All Sabres will feature full functional cockpit gauges, and performance 99% accurate of the actual aircraft.

 

Hopefully it will be released after the upcoming rumored patch from Thirdwire.

[+Brainless 1]

Brianless,

 

Hello.

 

I also am a Sabre freak!!!!

 

Most of the discouragement you face is an inaccurate flight model and the way the simulation is set up. Plus the actual shortcomings of the simulation itself.

 

There is a NEW complete Sabre Package in the works.

 

Completely New flight model and corrected files.

 

Featured will be every major variant of the F-86. F-86A-5, E-01, E-05, E-06, E-10, F-01, F-10, F-30 Slatted and 6-3 wing variants, F-35, F-40. Plus D, K, L variants.

 

Also included will be uprgaded MiG-15 to fight against.

 

Early Sabres (A and E) models will feature a V-windscreen.

 

All Sabres will feature full functional cockpit gauges, and performance 99% accurate of the actual aircraft.

 

Hopefully it will be released after the upcoming rumored patch from Thirdwire.

 

Thanks for the info. I'll have to keep a look out for the new model.