Mixed Feelings on DCS

[JediMaster 451]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I got a good feeling/sad feeling with the DCS announcement. On the one hand, it's not vaporware, it will be coming out!! Plus we don't have to wait for the NEXT title to start their "sequel" to LOMAC, BS will be the first part of said sequel now.

 

OTOH, I can't help but be saddened that we won't be able to integrate it with LOMAC FC, and flying alongside A-10s will have to wait for a bit. This means FC will be known as the Su-25 study sim only with a few other planes in it.

 

The only questions now are when, how much, how to get it, and is SF going to return?

[Ruggbutt 45]

The Black Shark beta is protected by Star Force, that's a fact. Whether ED changes their attitude about SF is to be seen. I've never had issues with SF but ED will be cutting it's throat with potential customers if they use it. My squadron has been discussing whether we'll buy upon release and we've decided that if there's a 1.13 patch for Flaming Cliffs we'll buy Black Shark. Black Shark won't be conducive to online gameplay with large amounts of people like FC is, you can only "datalink" 4 choppers at once. Again there's no dedicated server software, so if you wanna host a game you'll need a vid card in your host machine. That costs us extra every month on our dedicated server so we can run FC.

 

The other thing that has been bothering people in the community is the disdain for western customers by Eagle. Head over to Lockonfiles.com to see the excellent post by Colt45 on this issue. It's not just me or my squadron that sees this attitude. It's hard to spend money with a company that shows dislike for part of it's customer base. Even with all that being said I'll most likely buy Black Shark at some point. It may be months or a year later but if reviews are good then I'd be stupid to not purchase it. A year after release it will be a heck of a lot cheaper though. IMHO Eagle did the right thing in cutting all ties (and contractual agreements) with UBI. Anything UBI is counterproductive. When LOMAC was being produced, there were several western technical consultants helping out but Eagle almost completely ignored them. In fact, the A10 consultant bailed on them because they refused to believe the A10 or it's weapons acted the way he said they did IRL. Eagle also screwed themselves with help on the AH64 that they've been working on for a while. The western consultant that had offered help told them "kiss off" for various reasons that I don't need to delve in to. All I'll say it had to do with attitudes towards western customers.

 

All of this leads us back to the wait and see attitude of whether Eagle will support (and fix) serious issues with a product many of us purchased over 2 years ago. We've been being told that they'd patch FC at some point, now the official announcement says they'll be "evaluating" whether they'll patch or not. That sounds more no than yes to me. And since LOMAC/FC is how we're all getting our fast mover ya-ya's, we'd like to see them un-pork some of the missiles, fix some of the radars, chaff rejection, etc. I know they want to get Black Shark released, but since Eagle has ignored it's customer base for close to two years it makes sense to suck it up and patch FC. I know for a fact everyone in my squadron would buy right away if this occurred.

[JediMaster 451]

Yeah, the whole perception of Western customers by them has caused unnecessary problems. I don't know how much of it is their experiences have soured them or it's their preconceptions that soured their current experiences, but it really doesn't matter.

 

The tales of the western consultants also explains some things.

[355th_Paulie 0]

Yeah, the whole perception of Western customers by them has caused unnecessary problems. I don't know how much of it is their experiences have soured them or it's their preconceptions that soured their current experiences, but it really doesn't matter.

 

The tales of the western consultants also explains some things.

 

Eumm, Where's Wags in all this?? ED, obviously, focusus on the Russian market, but on the other hand we, the western customers, have a Wags. Or is Wags just another nono working for a Russian company what pays well? "Slaves to the Grind" IMO.

[355th_Paulie 0]

The Black Shark beta is protected by Star Force, that's a fact. Whether ED changes their attitude about SF is to be seen. I've never had issues with SF but ED will be cutting it's throat with potential customers if they use it. My squadron has been discussing whether we'll buy upon release and we've decided that if there's a 1.13 patch for Flaming Cliffs we'll buy Black Shark. Black Shark won't be conducive to online gameplay with large amounts of people like FC is, you can only "datalink" 4 choppers at once. Again there's no dedicated server software, so if you wanna host a game you'll need a vid card in your host machine. That costs us extra every month on our dedicated server so we can run FC.

 

The other thing that has been bothering people in the community is the disdain for western customers by Eagle. Head over to Lockonfiles.com to see the excellent post by Colt45 on this issue. It's not just me or my squadron that sees this attitude. It's hard to spend money with a company that shows dislike for part of it's customer base. Even with all that being said I'll most likely buy Black Shark at some point. It may be months or a year later but if reviews are good then I'd be stupid to not purchase it. A year after release it will be a heck of a lot cheaper though. IMHO Eagle did the right thing in cutting all ties (and contractual agreements) with UBI. Anything UBI is counterproductive. When LOMAC was being produced, there were several western technical consultants helping out but Eagle almost completely ignored them. In fact, the A10 consultant bailed on them because they refused to believe the A10 or it's weapons acted the way he said they did IRL. Eagle also screwed themselves with help on the AH64 that they've been working on for a while. The western consultant that had offered help told them "kiss off" for various reasons that I don't need to delve in to. All I'll say it had to do with attitudes towards western customers.

 

All of this leads us back to the wait and see attitude of whether Eagle will support (and fix) serious issues with a product many of us purchased over 2 years ago. We've been being told that they'd patch FC at some point, now the official announcement says they'll be "evaluating" whether they'll patch or not. That sounds more no than yes to me. And since LOMAC/FC is how we're all getting our fast mover ya-ya's, we'd like to see them un-pork some of the missiles, fix some of the radars, chaff rejection, etc. I know they want to get Black Shark released, but since Eagle has ignored it's customer base for close to two years it makes sense to suck it up and patch FC. I know for a fact everyone in my squadron would buy right away if this occurred.

 

 

One thing: all this made me realise I had some other goal, thats to get my motorcycle drivers licence. And that's exactly what I'm starting this Thursday. I'll be on my chopper within a month. Dickwads like ED pushed me away from the sims, pushed me away from online friends, to be honest, I'm about to kill internet all together thanks to some serious wankers on internet. I'm an International Logistics Manager IRL, deal with alot of crap, every day, all day, but what the kids of ED pull out of their hats realy lets my jaw drop..... I'll check in to see how Cal. Rugg, Hitman, and all are doing from time to time, but I've pulled down my homepage allready, and will be focussing on things that realy matter.

 

Thank you CombatAce for having me here, you are a delight for freeminds, keep it up.

 

If there's anything I can do, let me know, but, for now, I'm sick of flightsims.

 

Paul Arensman

Proud part of a once proud group of people

[+DoctorQuest 125]

I will not spend any more money with ED. Period.

 

I have plenty of other sims to keep me busy and I don't have to muck around with sound settings to get them to run right.

 

I could go on and on, but I've burdened others with my tale. I will leave it at this.

[JediMaster 451]

Wags is around, but his online participation is greatly reduced nowadays. I'm sure you'll see him on DCS' own forums.

 

While nothing else may happen with LOMAC FC, this is a new start free of Ubi. I will certainly give them the benefit of the doubt with Black Shark before I make any determinations on whether to continue or not. It's also going to be interesting to see how things go on DCS' forums.

 

If they do include SF, that will have to be weighed against each person's experience with it, of course. Personally I think CP is a burden only to the legit customers as the hackers either get past it and play it anyway or can't get past it and move on to something else, having lost nothing but a little time. The hackers aren't going to buy it no matter what. For now, anyway, only a few companies like Stardock and Thirdwire see things that way.

[IguanaKing 0]

If these guys had told everybody from the beginning that the old engine wasn't going to support what they were trying to do, I think everybody would have understood. In fact, I think a few of us even asked that question (I know I did). We were concerned about the much higher level of detail being run on the same engine, since the existing engine was struggling already. We were told that it would work out OK, because those details would only be processed at extremely low altitudes in slow moving aircraft like the helicopter. Seriously, how long does it take to switch over to the new engine and get a significant amount of testing done on it? I'm thinking it takes a bit longer than a couple of months. ED could have avoided all of the hassle by being straight with us all from the day they knew they couldn't pull off what they planned. Also, we all understand that any time someone is running a forum that we have to play by their rules. This would be fine if those rules applied to everybody, but they don't. It is the inconsistencies in enforcement that most, if not all of us, had a problem with.

[+Dave 2,322]

Guys, once again I know some of you have issues with ED, ok, that is great but beating it to death isn't going to get anyone anywhere. So can we talk about the sim itself and leave the other stuff out?

[+DoctorQuest 125]

Agreed. My apologies.

[IguanaKing 0]

Roger that, Dave. I guess I'll quit my cryin' now and just get back into those projects I was working on for the LOMAC community. I'm actually more motivated than ever to finish those projects ever since this DCS decision was made, because I now know that I'm doing them only for the benefit of all my buds.

[JediMaster 451]

Looking at the shots you can tell this isn't a "new" engine. It's the same one, but it's been modified to the extent that it's no longer backwards-compatible.

For those who remember, this is exactly what happened between Il-2 and Il-2:FB, which was planned as the first add on. Another one like this is Company of Heroes:OF, which will actually uninstall the first game and then simply unlock the stuff from the first game in the new one. If you only buy the new one, that stuff stays locked.

 

As for promises, I'm sure the dual-edged sword of original intent and Ubi's strings necessitated the change that they apparently didn't plan on from the start. The broken relationship with Ubi certainly affected this, and we should be glad they're now free of that, even if it means we don't get our cake as we wanted.

[Ruggbutt 45]

In the overall scheme of things the "module system" makes sense. Some of the new terrain stuff that's being touted is just Rockwelder's modding skills. If you want a taste of these he's released his tree pack which looks fantastic. Many of us are waiting on purchase to see if they're gonna make good on (the now defunct promise of) patching some of the important stuff for fast movers in FC. There's been negative discussion about this on other Lock On fan sites cuz there are people who feel that they were lied to. Whether it was on purpose or a side effect of keeping things secret doesn't matter, that's the consensus. I'm not a big ED fan but I think they'll do the right thing and patch FC. I know that would make me buy it right off the bat. We have a poll on our forums and we have two who will buy it. One is a beta tester (they don't get a free copy). So that leaves the other 15 just sticking with LOMAC/FC.

 

If you're saying that 15 copies won't make a difference, figure it like this. When FC was released FC cost the russian customers the equivalent of $7. It cost western customers $35 (or more in the UK). So 15 western copies x5 does make a difference. Many of the squads that have been alienated in the past will be waiting too. Maybe in the whole scheme of things that won't even matter, but we'll see. When people took a stand and said no more StarForce even game giant UBISoft listened. And while we're on that subject I'd bet that sales for BS would skyrocket if they stopped using such invasive copy protection. Who knows, but if ED is smart they'll really look hard at that particular issue.

 

Are a lot of us virtual jet-jocks hyped about BS? Not really. I happen to be a chopper fan but for the most part the A10 module is something that's being looked forward to. Or if you like choppers the AH-64 module. But a chopper that there has been less than 100 built of?

[+Dave 2,322]

Once you fly it in the weeds, you will change your mind... one word, incredible......

[JediMaster 451]

How many Su-25Ts were there? Less than a dozen, and they're out of production.

The Ka-50 is upcoming, so the logic there matches the wave of F-22 sims we saw in the late 90s.

 

I love helos but have had nothing but EECH to fly in the 21st century. I remember Rick Hawley had started on an AH-64 sim a few years back, but that just disappeared.

[IguanaKing 0]

Dave, just had to comment on your sig. Cool stuff my brotha...a D Buff, along with SAC shields? Now that is DEFINITELY old-school.

[+Dave 2,322]

Dave, just had to comment on your sig. Cool stuff my brotha...a D Buff, along with SAC shields? Now that is DEFINITELY old-school.

 

Well I am an old SAC trained warrior, just was on the ICBM side before we switched to that......other command.....

[IguanaKing 0]

Well I am an old SAC trained warrior, just was on the ICBM side before we switched to that......other command.....

 

Hehehe...I've still got an MA-1 with a TAC patch on it. Some of my customers get a chuckle out of seeing it, they say I'm showing my age.

[+Dave 2,322]

Hehehe...I've still got an MA-1 with a TAC patch on it. Some of my customers get a chuckle out of seeing it, they say I'm showing my age.

 

My helmet bag has nothing but my SAC patches, units etc on them. My wing king gets a kick out of it.

[Rayeyes 0]

still waiting