Israeli F-35 info

[Salamander67 0]

Might be that RAM-paint only comes in black and grey ...or then they're just trying to fool all armchair generals

[+allenjb42 4,240]

Some good points made - both on the Saudis getting the F-35 and on the Israeli paint scheme. I'll see if my relative can get some artists impressions - surely Lockheed Martin must have produced some for sales purposes?

[Mannie 21]

Some good points made - both on the Saudis getting the F-35 and on the Israeli paint scheme. I'll see if my relative can get some artists impressions - surely Lockheed Martin must have produced some for sales purposes?

 

That might be a great idea Allen ma man.

 

Cheers.

[JediMaster 451]

Well, fighters with camo are only good in 2 instances--when on the runway to make it harder to see from the air, and when flying low to avoid higher-flying enemy fighters. Israel hasn't had to worry about either of those in quite some time. A camo'd plane is worse from a ground attack perspective because you show up against the sky better presenting a better target for the optical aiming guys.

 

After all, aren't the USAF A-10s in gray?

[Salamander67 0]

So you're betting on a change in the IDF/AF paint system? Might very well be. That would explain why they dropped the change in camo-pattern they had planned for the fleet last year.

[JediMaster 451]

And as mentioned, if the paint is part of the stealth equation, you won't be able to just do whatever you want either.

[+allenjb42 4,240]

Just a bit more info from a recent email:

 

Right now none of the Arab countries are in line for the F-35, any

version. There was talk with Saudi but we have been told this is not

going to happen for a long time after we get the planes. Israel is in

deep negotiations with the US Government on many issues, budget being

the main one, and other budget considerations from the army and navy.

Puts our office in a strange situation as we are competing for 2 very

large combat ships for the Israel Navy also Lockheed Martin(tough due to

price), plus orders for C-130J's that is more or less a done deal. From

the army side there are options for defense systems that the army say

they need urgently. Not enough money to go round for all. Nice that

our company are the manufacturers of nearly all the budget priorities

equipment.

 

Two very large combat ships, planes in grey paint schemes, possible F-35B order. You don't think....?

Edited October 22, 2008 by allenjb42

[Salamander67 0]

No way! The Sa'ar 5 is a seriously big boat for the Israelis, and it's still a corvette/ light frigate. The navy has always been the last in line when it comes to the defence budget (understandably), and although it has a quite high standard of equipment and training, I don't think there's any possibility of them operating "very big ships".

 

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps, what we are talking about is a DG with a helipad large enough for a F-35B (probably lacking hangar), but I seriously doubt that. In the end, what strategic interests do the Israelis have that needs fighter protection so far away from their coastline that they need a sea-going fighter? I mean, it isn't even called the "Navy", but rather the "Sea Corps" (if I've understood it right). And with the financial crisis (NIS down against the dollar, Tel-Aviv stock exchange going down), I doubt there's money for anything that's not desperatly needed.

[+allenjb42 4,240]

I know. 'Very large combat ships' obviously means different things to different countries' navies! That last sentence was just a bit of fun.

 

Apparently this is the real deal:

 

http://www.defense-update.com/newscast/110...141107_lcsi.htm

 

Still, it would have been cool to see Israeli F-35Bs making a covert strike from INS Golda Meir on some Nazi hideout deep in the South American jungle!

[+76.IAP-Blackbird 3,557]

Mh F-35 more stealthy than F-16 ok right but... the bad guy gets some more new and better radar systems... F-35 = F-16 that`s for the no change of force balance ... hehe

[JediMaster 451]

Seeing them is only part of the equation. You have to be able to hit them, too. A search radar seeing you isn't the same as a targeting radar. If they know they're there, but not EXACTLY where, or the missiles can't track, then they're effectively still invisible.

[+SkippyBing 8]

A search radar seeing you isn't the same as a targeting radar. If they know they're there, but not EXACTLY where, or the missiles can't track, then they're effectively still invisible.

 

True, although in Gulf War 1 the UK's Type 42 Destroyers were happily tracking F-117s with their 1022 radars (late 60s design) mainly I think because the wavelength was generating harmonics in the wing spar. Anyway one of them data linked it to a closer Type 22 Frigate which pointed it's fire control radar in the general direction and then used the optical tracker to get a lock on, at which point they could have taken a shot without actually illuminating it with the radar. I think shortly after that they were asked to stop pushing them out as link tracks...

[Salamander67 0]

And a jump in the logic is the fact that as the F-16 does have a bigger RCS than F-35, a better radar will spot the F-16 farther away than the F-35, all other things equal (i.e. not going into the field were wavelengths are harmonising with parts of the aircraft).

 

No change in balance? Yeah, well I guess the Israelis feel that is better than having a negative shift in balance if they stuck with F-16's and Syria bought new radars.

[censored 0]

Uk and Italy withdrawing from the project... it`s the best they could do, cause of the development costs, no access to the planes technology and weaker stealth ability then primary announced.

 

No one has withdrawn from the F-35 program.

 

The Italians are withdrawing from the Initial Operational Test and Evaluation (IOT&E) phase of development, whereby they would have received two F-35s from the third lot of Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) aircraft. They will probably also cancel their purchase of another two fighters from the fourth lot of LRIP aircraft. In other words, the Italians have announced that they will delay purchase of the F-35 until after the flight test program is complete, and the airplane has entered full rate production (with full combat capability).

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...-programme.html

 

I also have seen the claims that the UK is contemplating withdrawing from the F-35 program. So far, we have only seen these claims appear in one British newspaper - leading me to question whether this is just another attempt at sensationalism on the part of a few journalists hoping to boost newsprint sales:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4837746.ece

 

The UK fought long and hard to obtain special priveleges under the F-35 program. They are the only JSF partner who has been guaranteed technology access to maintain all of the airplane's components - including its stealth features. Everyone else (including the Israelis) will have to send hardware back to the US for replacement or repair. The UK also has a much larger share in the manufacturing contract, with Rolls Royce supplying the lift fan for all F-35B fighters, as well as 40-percent of the F136 "alternative engine" still under development. I would not be surprised if the UK, like Italy, withdrew from the Low Rate Initial Production phase of the program as a cost-cutting measure. However, there is no other stealth strike fighter on the drawing board in the US or Europe. Much less one with STOVL capability. The F-35 is pretty much the only game in town, and we should expect to see a UK purchase once the airplane reaches full rate production in 2013.

 

Meanwhile, the US Air Force has finally announced a plan to bridge funding gaps for full rate F-35 production, by retiring some 300 of its older model F-15 and F-16 airframes ahead of their original stand-down date. The retired USAF fighters could also be refurbished and resold to provide additional funding in support of future F-35 procurement needs.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...lster-f-35.html

 

from what was in the media, Israel gonna get 25 F-35A's (a squadron)

and an option for 50 more F-35B's

 

As for the Israeli fighter buy, the Israeli air force has been planning to purchase the F-35 in lots of 25 fighters per purchase for sometime. The Israelis might be able to take delivery as soon as 2013, although 2014 is the more likely initial delivery date.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/...ifications.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...f-35-fleet.html

 

The Israelis have also reserved the right to purchase the F-35B during future production buys - an option that is of questionable merit. Adding the lift fan robs both fuel and payload space. If the Israelis are primarily concerned about long-range threats such as Iran, it makes little sense to buy a version with less range.

 

Two very large combat ships, planes in grey paint schemes, possible F-35B order. You don't think....?

The "large combat ships" are expected to be versions of the US Navy's Littoral Combat Ships. Purchase of the vessels is being explored as a "low cost" route to provide the Israeli navy with a larger, longer range capability. These vessels are designed to carry up to two helicopters - hardly an aircraft carrier. And of course, the rest of the Israeli armed forces (army and air force) have not agreed to delegate the necessary funds to the Israeli navy.

 

The real central issue for Isreali negotiators will be the extent of Israeli content in the avionics suite of the airplanes delivered to Israel. The Israeli air force will want to ensure that Israeli weapons can be integrated with the fighter, and that the airplane can be fitted with Israeli avionics packages that will provide it with an edge over any F-35 fighters that might be flown by any opposing air force in decades to come.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...or-foreign.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...int-strike.html