Falkland 1982

[jaeger_301 0]

first a big Thank you for the creators of the Falkland 1982 campaign  really good work

 

 

 

i noticed that the AAA in this campaign is really deadly, as it should be. a high speed pass over a site protected with an Oerlikon is the maximum - a 2nd or 3rd would be the last. in comparsion in WOV or SFP it is possible to fly several times over a position without a single hit - nor did i got a single hit by AAA in any WOV campaign ever.

 

 

 

As a crosscheck i landed in SFP on an enemy airfield protected by a ZSU 23/4, i flew straight and slow to the landing field (150 - 180 kn) the ZSU started firing and shot way beyond my plane, the first 5 burst missed completely.... Altough, the ZSU 23/4 has not the range of the Oerlikon - it shouldn t be that bad.

 

 

 

So, my question is: how can i make the AAA in WOV/SFP more deadly??? Where can i find the file to change the ZSU23/4 and what values should be changed???? I looked in the  Weaponseditor - but the ZSU 23/4 isn t even there.

 

 

 

Thanks for your help in advance

 

 

 

Jaeger

[Fubar512 1,350]

There are no ZSU 23-4s in a default, patched WoV install. The North Vietnamese did not have any during the war (1964-1973).

 

You are probably confusing them with the ZU-23, which is a two-barreled, trailer mounted weapon. The ZSU-23-4, OTH, is radar directed, and quite effective against low flying targets in game.

[+Typhoid 231]

There are no ZSU 23-4s in a default, patched WoV install. The North Vietnamese did not have any during the war (1964-1973).

 

You are probably confusing them with the ZU-23, which is a two-barreled, trailer mounted weapon. The ZSU-23-4, OTH, is radar directed, and quite effective against low flying targets in game.

 

 

really? I thought they did.

[Fubar512 1,350]

ZSU 23-4 Combat history

1968 - 1970 War of Attrition

1973 - Yom Kippur War

1959 - 1975 Vietnam War, during the last stage of Ho Chi Minh Campaign in 1975 by battery of 237th anti-aircraft artillery regiment.

1975 - 1991 Angolan Civil War, 1st Civil War

1977 - Libyan-Egyptian War

1977 - 1978 Ogaden War

1979 - 1988 Soviet War in Afghanistan

1980 - 1988 Iran–Iraq War

1982 - Lebanon War

1990 - 1991 Gulf War

1992 - 1993 Georgian–Abkhazian conflict

1994 - 1996 First Chechen War

1999 - NATO bombing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

1999 - Second Chechen War

2003 - Invasion of Iraq

2008 - War in South Ossetia

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4

[+Typhoid 231]

ZSU 23-4 Combat history

1968 - 1970 War of Attrition

1973 - Yom Kippur War

1959 - 1975 Vietnam War, during the last stage of Ho Chi Minh Campaign in 1975 by battery of 237th anti-aircraft artillery regiment.

1975 - 1991 Angolan Civil War, 1st Civil War

1977 - Libyan-Egyptian War

1977 - 1978 Ogaden War

1979 - 1988 Soviet War in Afghanistan

1980 - 1988 Iran–Iraq War

1982 - Lebanon War

1990 - 1991 Gulf War

1992 - 1993 Georgian–Abkhazian conflict

1994 - 1996 First Chechen War

1999 - NATO bombing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

1999 - Second Chechen War

2003 - Invasion of Iraq

2008 - War in South Ossetia

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4

 

I must have been thinking of the ZSU-57-2 during the Vietnam War. I know we were training against the ZSU-23-4 in the early '70's.

 

have to delete that one out of my WoV load......

[jaeger_301 0]

the ZSU23/4 was actually in the SFP install.

 

But in my opionion the AAA in WOV/SFP is too weak compared with about 85% of the US losses caused by AAA.

 

The question still remains what values need a change?

 

Jaeger

[+Typhoid 231]

the ZSU23/4 was actually in the SFP install.

 

But in my opionion the AAA in WOV/SFP is too weak compared with about 85% of the US losses caused by AAA.

 

The question still remains what values need a change?

 

Jaeger

 

don't know yet.

 

The after the patch AAA and SAM levels are very much lower. In order to come even close you have to have ground objects - unlimited and air defense - heavy set. Its still not high enough. But I've found that if you go back to hit secondary targets of opportunity around the primary target location, you will likely get your tail shot up pretty often!!

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Jaeger,

 

what settings did you have WOV on?

 

Because i've been shot down by low level AAA and have been shot up on numerous other occasions. At certain speeds and altitudes over certain areas you stand a very high chance of getting zapped. 100mm might be nothing much but down below the 14.5mm and 23mm guns will carve you up if you screw up.

 

Before i forget, the ZSU23/4 (Shilka) is in WOV. I've nailed more than a few of them, one with a Shrike that was intended for a Fansong.

[jaeger_301 0]

@Thyphoid

please, where can you set the airdefense to heavy? i have campaign difficulty hard and unlimited supply. or to you mean single player?

 

after a strike i can fly 5 or 6 times over the target and in range of AAA - nothing ever happend. though, i keep my speed up at 500 knots. just as an example; strike against an airfield 1) pop up and bomb 2) fuel tanks with guns 3) water tower with guns 4) check if there is something left 5) clean up. Often done, not a single hit.

 

@Cater

my mission profile looks often like this

Strike

Ingress 5 to 10k

IP to target 100ft

pull up 8 to 12k ft

egress at 100 ft

 

AA

depends on the situation, but egress is mostly at low level with speed around 500 kt +

 

In thread areas is jinking a 2nd nature, but i have flown the plane also through heavy AAA at medium ALT straight and with constant speed without any hit.

 

In debrief the AI has never got a hit by AAA. SAM´s - yes the AI get´s often killed by SAM´s but i cant remember a single AAA kill.

 

I searched a bit and found the config files for the AAA, it is in the ObjectData.cat in the Object folder. There i changed the KS 19 from Radar fals to true, now they shoot a bit better.

 

Jaeger

[Fubar512 1,350]

Before i forget, the ZSU23/4 (Shilka) is in WOV. I've nailed more than a few of them, one with a Shrike that was intended for a Fansong.

 

Only if you're running the unpatched original version of WoV. Installing SP4 or above removes it, so you must have installed it from another TW sim.

[jaeger_301 0]

did a quick test with WOV with the october patch 1972

 

single mission - air defense on hard

 

circled quite often over an airbase while chasing a MIG

 

All MIG´s down - lets land on the enemy airbase :D

the airbase is protected by SA9, ZU23, ZPU2 and KS 60

 

first tracers are way behind while i line up with 190 kts, i keep the speed and glidescope steady so i dont confuse the gunners... the first hits go into the stabiliser as i touch down.

 

on the pic you can see the AAA and the hits in the stabiliser - with my wheels down

 

 

 

Jaeger

[Fubar512 1,350]

Yeah, they miss ALL the time

 

WoV Video

[+Crusader 2,078]

Options -> Gameplay -> Enemy Skill Level = HARD

 

that will improve things too IIRC...

[jaeger_301 0]

Thanks too all for your replies and support.

 

in the Falkland Mod you can t even dream of landing on a hostile runway or even slow down to a casual sightseeing speed near AAA. In Falkland 1982 you go in fast, lean a bit forward to get a biiitt faster, jink drop your bombs and get out as fast as possible.

 

There is a theoretical possibilty that SFP has a differend code - but i doubt it. It is more likely that there are some differend ini settings for the weapons and i will take a closer look.

 

cheers

 

Jaeger

[+Crusader 2,078]

I dont have my Falklands Install around, but it could be that the individual AAA objects have higher settings for their fire control in the WeaponSystem section...

 

....

GunStabilization=TRUE

GunRadarTracking=FALSE

RangeFinder=2

BallisticComputer=0

...

 

 

for range finder and ballistic computer, 0 is lowest and 10 highest value IIRC...

 

time for trials eh

[Fubar512 1,350]

There is a theoretical possibilty that SFP has a differend code - but i doubt it. It is more likely that there are some differend ini settings for the weapons and i will take a closer look.

 

cheers

 

Jaeger

 

Its the map, or more to the point, the weapon density in that map. Try flying low level over Hanoi or Haiphong.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Fubars' video is more in line with my experience. I've seen dozens of aircraft get shot down by ground fire.

 

Jaeger,

 

light a candle cause you were blessed with that Phantom. I've been moving faster and higher and still got hit bad enough to either get downed ( Thud, Crusader, Phantom, Hun) or shot up bad enough that i had to head for a safe place to punch out. I have screenshots of planes of mine looking like flying scrap heaps after Triple A got em'

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Its the map, or more to the point, the weapon density in that map. Try flying low level over Hanoi or Haiphong.

Low and slow over either city=Dead

[jaeger_301 0]

I dont have my Falklands Install around, but it could be that the individual AAA objects have higher settings for their fire control in the WeaponSystem section...

 

....

GunStabilization=TRUE

GunRadarTracking=FALSE

RangeFinder=2

BallisticComputer=0

...

 

 

for range finder and ballistic computer, 0 is lowest and 10 highest value IIRC...

 

time for trials eh

 

Crusader, you are the man ! 

 

 

Thats it what i have searched for!!!  already some changes done and it looks much better now. I am sure i find the sweet spot 

 

Big thanks

 

@Cater, dunno if it is the F4, in WOV i flew besides differend F4´s the F8, F105 and never had a single AAA hit - nor my wingmen, this was flown with SP4 and September patch mostly in campaigns with all settings hard except padlock. SFP with differend planes the same story - except Falkland 1982 and the 2S6.

 

 

 

Jaeger

[jaeger_301 0]

thats a sreenshot where the AAA was "really close" because i did some sightseeing over Haiphong after a mission to get a good screenshot.

 

AAA is fffaaaarrrr behind

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2008 by jaeger_301

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Oh wow Jaeger!

 

In one of my past threads i mentioned going down to strafe and getting shot down. I was in a VF-111 Crusader at the time!

 

I got nailed south of Vihn at a place i call the "Arrowhead" THE nastiest low level flak south of Nam Dinh can be found here (at least to my experience).

[jaeger_301 0]

yeah it is the MF F8D, a really lovely bird

 

you mean the area between Khe Phat and Dong Hoi? Vinh was infamous for bombing craters and as a nasty flak trap.

 

I found 2 major errors in the detect system AAA ini files, the ZU23 is radar controlled and the KS19 100mm is configured with visible aiming. UHMM, vice versa should be correct.

 

fixed this issue and landing on an enemy airbase is now much more dangerous.

swapped the detect system from the ZU23 and changed the data´s to an IMHO possible value.

tough, there are some questions open and your comments would be appreciated.

 

[DetectSystem]

TargetType=AIR

RadarSearchTime=2.0

RadarSearchRange=30000.0

RadarSearchStrength=80

RadarTrackTime=6.0 <--------------- is this the time that is needed for a lock on?

RadarTrackRange=20000.0

RadarTrackStrength=75

RadarPosition=0.0,0.0,2.30

RadarMinimumRange=3000.0

RadarMinimumAlt=300.0

DataLink=TRUE <--------------------- is this a link to the fire radar?

OpticalSight=TRUE

NightSight=TRUE

VisualRange=3500.0

VisualSearchTime=3.0

ViewportPosition=0.0,0.0,2.30

MaxVisibleDistance=7000.0

RadarCrossSection=5

 

AFAIK, WOX uses the metric system.

Your inputs are welcome.

 

cheers

 

Jaeger

[+EricJ 4,128]

Methinks datalink means that, all in the "network" know where you're at, or all the SAM/AAA knows where you're at. I'd like to mention the 2S6 in one of the vehicle packs is pretty good as well. The AAA is the easiest but while you're jinking he'll shoot a missile at you... not cool.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

yeah it is the MF F8D, a really lovely bird

 

you mean the area between Khe Phat and Dong Hoi? Vinh was infamous for bombing craters and as a nasty flak trap.

 

I found 2 major errors in the detect system AAA ini files, the ZU23 is radar controlled and the KS19 100mm is configured with visible aiming. UHMM, vice versa should be correct.

 

fixed this issue and landing on an enemy airbase is now much more dangerous.

swapped the detect system from the ZU23 and changed the data´s to an IMHO possible value.

tough, there are some questions open and your comments would be appreciated.

 

[DetectSystem]

TargetType=AIR

RadarSearchTime=2.0

RadarSearchRange=30000.0

RadarSearchStrength=80

RadarTrackTime=6.0 <--------------- is this the time that is needed for a lock on?

RadarTrackRange=20000.0

RadarTrackStrength=75

RadarPosition=0.0,0.0,2.30

RadarMinimumRange=3000.0

RadarMinimumAlt=300.0

DataLink=TRUE <--------------------- is this a link to the fire radar?

OpticalSight=TRUE

NightSight=TRUE

VisualRange=3500.0

VisualSearchTime=3.0

ViewportPosition=0.0,0.0,2.30

MaxVisibleDistance=7000.0

RadarCrossSection=5

 

AFAIK, WOX uses the metric system.

Your inputs are welcome.

 

cheers

 

Jaeger

 

 

I once posted a pic of the place but i can't find it now. Anyways, it's down the coast from Vihn about 40-45 miles IIRC. You'll find a tree covered terrain feature that has an arrowhead shape. The immediate area north of it has some AAA that is very agressive. When fragged for missions anywhere in the area i would make sure to have a spare bomb or two(preferably CBUs) to drop on them.

[jaeger_301 0]

This mod is a hommage to the brave warriors Col. Jack Broughton and Major Ken Bell (later Brig. Gen.) and based on their accounts from mission flown over RP6. When the best Pilots met the thoughest Airdefense.

 

lot of Navy campaign missions flown with the above .ini changes and the ZU23 changed to optical aiming.

 

resume:

from feet dry to feet wet i have to be on a constant watch out, jinking and changing altitude is a must. In RP 6 and especially over Hanoi and Haiphong every perimeter of the airspace is covert with a deadly menace.

 

Flying straight with 500 knots at 300 feet too long and the small arms fire will probably damage the plane.

Straight and level with constant speed at 10k to 15k, heavy AAA and SAM´s will get some planes from your flight.

 

So, is it a insane modification? No, it is possible to bring all planes back safely from a RP6 mission with some basic rules. In short, high speed (500 knots +), constant change of altitude and heading. I have flown successfully the F8, F7 ( you will miss the burner ) F4 and F105. Jammers are for the Linebacker campaigns a must.

 

Strike flights:

in areas with low SAM coverage ingress is best between 10k and 15k + the above basics. Ingress in areas with a high SAM thread it is best between 4k and 6k, so you can take the plane quick below 1000 feet after the first SAM´s where fired keep the plane between an altitude envelope from 100 ft up to 2000 ft. 5 seconds at the same alt. and heading should be the maximum. 1 pass over the target should be the rule.

 

MIGCAP - TARCAP

Avoid overflights of Hanoi and Haiphong when possible, in these particular areas are long dogfights and long lineups for AIM 7 shots a nogo.

 

For me worked best;

AIM7 shots - lock the bandit around 15nm, go down to the deck with full burner then start a zoom climb with slightly jinking, center the release dot with 1g shoot your AIM7 and jink again inside the radar parameters. Keep during launch and impact the bandit with a clear sky as background.

 

When the bandit chasses a friendly force him to a defensive manouvre, drag him out of the high threat area and use the support of your wingman.

 

There aren t any changes done in the weapons performance like range, fireing rate etc. . From my point of view the AAA is now on ACE level with lots of experience.

 

Jaeger

Edited November 3, 2008 by jaeger_301