Where do the cartridges go...?

[Hauksbee 103]

Now that I'm spending a lot of time looking at the butt-end of my guns, I got to wondering if the cartridges are collected in a bag/box or allowed to fall out the bottom?

[Siggi 10]

With the current metal prices around the world they probably go into a box, to be collected later by a shifty mechanic and flogged on the never-never.

[Cameljockey 3]

Aren't the openings in the side of the Camel's cowling casing ejection chutes?

[Siggi 10]

Aren't the openings in the side of the Camel's cowling casing ejection chutes?

 

No, they're the stereo sub-woofers.

[dixieflyer 0]

Hauksbee, it all depends. As Uncle Al pointed out, Lewis-armed a/c emitted a steady stream of spent brass into the slipstream. Belt-fed MG's such as the Vickers or Spandau had the belts collected in another box, or in the case of some Nieuports, another take up reel. Some a/c such as the SPAD XIII had ejection port chutes (rectangular if memory serves) on the lower starboard side for the spent brass. I am not sure about the Camel.

Is there a particular a/c you had in mind?

 

Warren

[PrairieFlcn 0]

In a book I'm currently reading there was a nice quote from an observer who flew in a DH2 about the great lengths he had to go to to collect everything that might go loose in his observers cockpit. I believe he mentioned a canvas bag for casings. Just changing the drum was done with great care since anything dropped up front went right through the props!

[Hauksbee 103]

Is there a particular a/c you had in mind?

 

Not really. Lately I've been mostly flying German planes. The question occured while I was in a D.VII. I was looking at the belt feed in, and the cloth tube over the ejection ports and wondered if this was just a way to keep the cartridges out of the pilots face and they just vented out below, or were they saved and reloaded?

[Bullethead 12]

Guns using the Maxim action (both Vickers and Spandau) ejected the empty brass out the bottom of the receiever. So on most planes armed with these guns, where the guns were on top of the fuselage, the brass fell into a receptacle underneath. On some planes it remained there, on others it fell through and out the bottom. Those with the guns on the side of the fuselage, such as the N.28 or RE8, usually lost the brass overboard. Same with the German observers' Parabellum, which were Maxim-types.

 

As mentioned above, Lewis guns mounted at cockpit level, such as in the DH2, usually had a bag to catch the brass so they wouldn't beat the gunner or pilot to death. They didn't bother with this when the gun was on the upper wing.

 

Belt-fed guns used cloth belts, which for fixed guns were collected in receptacles in the fuselage. The Parabellum's belt, however, dangled back in the slipstream and gave the attacking scout pilot an idea of how much ammo the observer had left.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Interesting thread, very educational! I always thought it would be quite a nuisance (if not downright dangerous!) to get all that metal flying in your face when shooting with the Lewis in some Entente aircraft. Makes sense they had some bags for the cartridges.

 

Can anybody recommend any (good) books that contain detailed info about WW1 aircraft armament?

[dixieflyer 0]

Albatros Productions has Mini-Datafiles on the Spandau, Vickers, Lewis, and Parabellum if memory serves. They are about half the cost or less of a regular Datafile because they are about half the size. :) You can order direct from Albatros or a secondary dealer. If I am not ordering direct from Albatros I use Byrd Aviation Books in Virginia here in the U.S.

 

HTH, YMMV,

 

Warren

[RAF_Louvert 101]

In one of the WWI pilot diaries I read, (might have been Norman Archibald's), he talks about when one of the spent cartridges fell down in between the control stick and its mounting bracket and jambed it so that he could not push it forward. Nearly cost him his life. And James McCudden tells of the time when one of his ammo drums flipped out of its holder on his DH-2 and took off one of his prop blades. He too nearly bought it trying to set his plane down as it attemped to shake itself to bits.

 

BTW PrairieFlcn, I am guessing you are referring to the FE2b in your post, as the DH-2 was a single seter scout and therefore would have no observer position.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Hasse Wind 46]

Albatros Productions has Mini-Datafiles on the Spandau, Vickers, Lewis, and Parabellum if memory serves. They are about half the cost or less of a regular Datafile because they are about half the size. :) You can order direct from Albatros or a secondary dealer. If I am not ordering direct from Albatros I use Byrd Aviation Books in Virginia here in the U.S.

 

HTH, YMMV,

 

Warren

 

Thanks! Albatros Productions seems to have an extensive library of WW1 aviation books. I'll have to take a look at some of their other titles too.

[dixieflyer 0]

Uncle Al,

Yes, that book is a good one. I don't have it in my library, but many of my friends do. Another good one is the one by Harry Woodman (St. Harry to modlers :) )

 

Hasse Wind,

You won't go wrong with the Datafiles and such from Albatros. Pricey? Yes, but they are the best game in town. Primarily aimed at modelers (like me), they are still chock full of information on the a/c and equipment. If you want ace info, I suggest many of the Osprey titles. If you really want to invest some bucks the books by Flying Machine Press are great! LMK if you need more information on these.

 

HTH, FWIW, YMMV,

 

Warren

[tttiger 0]

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/RAF%20guns.htm

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft...chine-guns.html

 

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Han...un/fgun-pr.html

 

A few useful links.

 

None mention what happens to the spent cases. The 1919 report from Aerodrome Forum notes the used metal links (the Vickers .303 for aircraft went from a cloth belt feed to a disintegrating link feed about the middle of WWI) were simply dropped from the aircraft. My guess (and it's just a guess) is that the empty casing were dropped as well.

 

The military doesn't reload its small arms ammo cases.

 

During WWII, of course, the empty cases were dropped out of the aircraft. You can see them falling in many, many combat films.

 

That's still true. Any ground pounder who has had an attack helicopter firing its minigun overhead knows what it feels like to have hot brass raining down on him, some of it going down his collar :fuk:

 

ttt

Edited April 16, 2009 by tttiger

[Duce Lewis 3]

During WWII, of course, the empty cases were dropped out of the aircraft. You can see them falling in many, many combat films.

ttt

Yep, I saw a documentary that noted German farmers, who are on the common allied bomber stream paths, are still plowing up cartridges to this day

[Hauksbee 103]

...are still plowing up cartridges to this day

 

They're still plowing up unexploded ordnance in French fields from WWI. Some of them poison gas rounds with dangerously thin corroded walls.