Werner Voss...some guy!

[Hauksbee 103]

I personally would count that as proof that Voss put 2 SE5A's out of the fight, I understand why you are sceptical about the history channel, but on this occasion they are right.

Thanks for at least partially restoring my faith in the History Channel. I'm happy to hear they got it right that time. My comment, "there's no way to prove it, of course,..." I was actually referring to whether or not Voss saw his situation as hopeless.

[OvS 8]

Ah, where's the fun in that? It may be reality, of that I have no doubt, but I'm playing this game (and others very much like it...) to escape and be an intrepid hero. Foolish I have no doubt. But the scraps and escapes I could talk about would make me seem a blatant braggart, but what sweet personal memories. Playing it safe is not my style, at least in the virtual skies, perhaps that's why I gravitate towards the dashing RFC!

 

OvS wrote:

Hey, to a Canadian those are fighting words! Many years ago a Crown Commission cleared Bishop of those unfounded accusations. They stemmed from some upstart media type who wanted to make a name for themself by taking an icon down. Totally baseless accusation, but apparently the lies endure. You'd better apologize

 

 

I dont' know... I like Collishaw, he looks like a cool guy.

 

Let's see then... it would be Voss, MvR, Mannock, Fonck, Bishop, Udet, Collishaw.

[Olham 164]

Hey, Bandy !

There really were "lone wolfs" - you could follow Guynemer's footsteps (or wing slaps?).

And if you do all the right things, you may go pretty far. But even a crack like Guynemer

said: "I will not survive."

And he didn't.

 

OvS: ... it would be Voss, MvR, Mannock, Fonck, Bishop, Udet, Collishaw.

 

A cool collection (if we forgive Fonk for his boasting - he can't have been too bad though. Udet had him as a visitor after the war).

[OvS 8]

OvS: ... it would be Voss, MvR, Mannock, Fonck, Bishop, Udet, Collishaw.

 

A cool collection (if we forgive Fonk for his boasting - he can't have been too bad though. Udet had him as a visitor after the war).

 

I think so... war can do those things to you. Their meeting shows the type of men Udet and Fonck were after all. Gentlemen off the field, but ferocious competitors when the 'game' was on.

 

OvS

[Dej 17]

If we're to look at the tacticians, the professionals, then shouldn't McCudden be in the list as well... the master of the 'Stalk' plus a top notch pilot and mechanic, a good leader and a decent shot to boot?

 

Heh, the only way to test it all would be to resurrect the bunch of 'em, with their aircraft of choice fitted with gun cameras, and have a round-robin, swapping aircraft each time... that's a bout I'd pay to see!

Edited May 27, 2009 by Dej

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

If we're to look at the tacticians, the professionals, then shouldn't McCudden be in the list as well... the master of the 'Stalk' plus a top notch pilot and mechanic, a good leader and a decent shot to boot?

 

Heh, the only way to test it all would be to resurrect the bunch of 'em, with their aircraft of choice fitted with gun cameras, and have a round-robin, swapping aircraft each time... that's a bout I'd pay to see!

 

 

You pay, and I'll supply the beer!!!.

 

Rugbyfan1972

[Olham 164]

They could use paintball bullets - and they would get real rich!

[Red-Dog 3]

If we're to look at the tacticians, the professionals, then shouldn't McCudden be in the list as well... the master of the 'Stalk' plus a top notch pilot and mechanic, a good leader and a decent shot to boot?

 

Heh, the only way to test it all would be to resurrect the bunch of 'em, with their aircraft of choice fitted with gun cameras, and have a round-robin, swapping aircraft each time... that's a bout I'd pay to see!

 

 

I was watching sky (uk) and there's a new series coming out next month in which some guy's are going to do just that ( don't know about the paint balls) they are going to recreate famous dog fights in restored/replica aircraft should be fun.I will let you know what channel and time next time i see the ad.

[godzilla1985 0]

Fortunately will never know what Voss was thinking that day. Was it that he really couldn't excape or that his over confidence in his skill and the DrI was such he believed it was possible to shoot down all those Se5a's and live to tell the tale? In comparison Arthur Raymond Brooks (22nd Pursuit Sqd) found himself in a simular situation when he was in a life or death struggle with his lone Spad XIII facing off against 8 Fokker DVII's. His Spad had no clear cut advantages over the DVII and probably had several disavantages not unlike Voss's DrI against the Se5a. Brooks had said the whole time he was looking for an excape route while keeping the Germans off balance and actually feared everytime he downed a DVII. He felt what was keeping him alive was the fact he was the only target and the 8 DVII's had to watch out from running into each other trying to shoot him down (like Voss), which became less of a problem for the DVII's as their numbers dwindled. So was Brooks just lucky that day and Voss wasn't the day he met up with Mannock and crew? Was Voss looking for a way to best a squadron competitor (like McGuire vs Bong?) and Brooks was just looking for a way to excape a bad situation and survive? Or was Voss honestly also looking for that same excape but didn't find it in time? I would like to think it was because he couldn't find that excape and just ran out of time and luck rather then it was his ego and overconfidence that got him killed.

[Olham 164]

Godzilla: Was it that he really couldn't excape or that his over confidence in his skill and the DrI was such

he believed it was possible to shoot down all those Se5a's and live to tell the tale?

 

Well, just try it with one of your long time/good kill tally campaign pilots.

Or set up a fight like Voss'. I did that. And although it's a sim (but a very immersive one!), where I can't die,

I had an extreme rush of adrenalin. I thought all the time, that I may just have one more minute. One more

minute to survive. One more chance to escape the next attack.

Don't even dream of running away - they'll shoot you to pieces!

Be quiet. Be quiet and don't waste a single round!

And if - very perhaps, and with all the help of all my angels - I could damage them all enough to make them

give it up - only then, I may see the meadows again, where I used to play as a child. How I wished to...

[Hauksbee 103]

So was Brooks just lucky that day and Voss wasn't the day he met up with Mannock and crew?

I'd say 'yes', and 'yes'. Brooks was a newbie who got sucked into a furball. He was 'way over-matched and certainly he'd want to get the hell outta there. Voss, on the other hand...well, I can see him saying to himself, 'Keep cool. I can do this." After all, it could be that the SE-5's had been on a long patrol and low on fuel. They might run out of ammo. He doesn't have to shoot down everyone, just outlast them. Was he unlucky? I'd say so. He put bullets into every plane without downing any of McCudden's flight. Another inch or so on any shot, might have made all the difference. But it wasn't his day.

[godzilla1985 0]

Godzilla: Was it that he really couldn't excape or that his over confidence in his skill and the DrI was such

he believed it was possible to shoot down all those Se5a's and live to tell the tale?

 

Well, just try it with one of your long time/good kill tally campaign pilots.

Or set up a fight like Voss'. I did that. And although it's a sim (but a very immersive one!), where I can't die,

I had an extreme rush of adrenalin. I thought all the time, that I may just have one more minute. One more

minute to survive. One more chance to escape the next attack.

Don't even dream of running away - they'll shoot you to pieces!

Be quiet. Be quiet and don't waste a single round!

And if - very perhaps, and with all the help of all my angels - I could damage them all enough to make them

give it up - only then, I may see the meadows again, where I used to play as a child. How I wished to...

 

Olham my friend read the whole post please. I have seen arguments up and down the internet that he could have excaped if he wanted too because of this or that reason and he couldn't have excape because of this or that reason. Some reasons voiced elsewhere are not too kind to Voss's memory at all. I just wan't to presenting a comparison of a fellow flier in a similar circumstance. In the end I stated what I like to believe what happened to Voss although there are many who would disagree. Brooks was very, very lucky that day, Voss unfortunately wasn't. The aircraft involved is irrelavent I think as being alone in a DrI against several Se5a's probably wouldn't be any different then being alone in a SPAD XIII against several DVII's. Tell you what, I'm waiting for my TrackIR to arrive as soon as it does I'll try that Voss mission in QC (although not being able to do that flat turn will make it tougher) and you in turn try the Brooks mission. I still believe it will be more luck then skill for either of our fliers to excape :yes:

[Olham 164]

Okay, will try the SPAD fight.

The Voss-fight, I had already done and posted before. But here it is again.

 

[JFM 18]

Hello:

 

Poor Voss! He can’t be mentioned without being compared to MvR sooner or later. Always what Voss might have done as compared to what Richthofen actually did.

 

Eventually the speculation claims that Voss would have been “the best” had he lived. Why is Voss speculation always positive? You never read someone say, “I think Voss would have been killed during Bloody April had he not been away on PLM leave,” or “I think that if Voss would have survived his fight against No. 56 he would have died two days later on the 25th.” That speculation has equal weight and equal likelihood to speculation he would have “passed MvR’s total,” yet nobody dares say anything negative against Voss, no matter how historically possible. From personal inquiries I’ve determined this is because many feel an emotional attachment to him due to his “hero’s death” fighting against overwhelming odds--ironically, a manner of death that has assured his fame. After all, take away Voss’s last fight and what do you have? A curmudgeonly loner who shot down less planes than Udet, Löwenhardt, and Jacobs—men about whom far less is discussed than Voss. Why? No odds-against-them-hero's-deaths.

 

One would think Voss only had one flight; 23 September 1917 is the cornerstone of his career. After all, it's mostly what is written about or discussed, except maybe a few mentions of his strafing downed planes or his ridiculously exaggerated "rivalry" with MvR. Yet Adolf Ritter von Tutschek flew a Dr.I during a fight similar to Voss’s last, tangling with an estimated 16 (sixteen) Se5s. Never hear much about it though; certainly not much written about it. Why? He lived.

 

In any event, no matter how many people don’t like it:

 

Richthofen: 80

Everyone else: <80

[godzilla1985 0]

Hello:

 

Poor Voss! He can't be mentioned without being compared to MvR sooner or later. Always what Voss might have done as compared to what Richthofen actually did.

 

Eventually the speculation claims that Voss would have been "the best" had he lived. Why is Voss speculation always positive? You never read someone say, "I think Voss would have been killed during Bloody April had he not been away on PLM leave," or "I think that if Voss would have survived his fight against No. 56 he would have died two days later on the 25th." That speculation has equal weight and equal likelihood to speculation he would have "passed MvR's total," yet nobody dares say anything negative against Voss, no matter how historically possible. From personal inquiries I've determined this is because many feel an emotional attachment to him due to his "hero's death" fighting against overwhelming odds--ironically, a manner of death that has assured his fame. After all, take away Voss's last fight and what do you have? A curmudgeonly loner who shot down less planes than Udet, Löwenhardt, and Jacobs—men about whom far less is discussed than Voss. Why? No odds-against-them-hero's-deaths.

 

One would think Voss only had one flight; 23 September 1917 is the cornerstone of his career. After all, it's mostly what is written about or discussed, except maybe a few mentions of his strafing downed planes or his ridiculously exaggerated "rivalry" with MvR. Yet Adolf Ritter von Tutschek flew a Dr.I during a fight similar to Voss's last, tangling with an estimated 16 (sixteen) Se5s. Never hear much about it though; certainly not much written about it. Why? He lived.

 

In any event, no matter how many people don't like it:

 

Richthofen: 80

Everyone else: <80

 

I think the Voss legend wasn't born just because he tangled it up with a boat load of Se5a's and lost, he mixed it up with some of the very BEST pilots of 56 squadron and even though he lost he came very close to shooting many of these pilots down, thats why he has the legend status attached to him. If there is such a thing as a dying a warriors death then that was Voss's death no doubt.

(Victories of the 56 pilots involved at time of the dogfight with Voss)

McCudden 12 kills

Bowman 16 kills

Mayberry 13 kills

Musprah 6 kills

Davis 18 kills

Hoidge 22 kills

I don't think even MvR would have fared much better without some major luck if he was in Voss's shoes that day.

[JFM 18]

I think the Voss legend wasn't born just because he tangled it up with a boat load of Se5a's and lost, he mixed it up with some of the very BEST pilots of 56 squadron and even though he lost he came very close to shooting many of these pilots down, thats why he has the legend status attached to him. If there is such a thing as a dying a warriors death then that was Voss's death no doubt.

(Victories of the 56 pilots involved at time of the dogfight with Voss)

McCudden 12 kills

Bowman 16 kills

Mayberry 13 kills

Musprah 6 kills

Davis 18 kills

Hoidge 22 kills

I don't think even MvR would have fared much better without some major luck if he was in Voss's shoes that day.

 

 

 

Even after listing these impressive stats there's another speculative comparison with MvR. When will Voss stand on his own merits?

[von Baur 54]

Poor Voss! He can't be mentioned without being compared to MvR sooner or later.

 

Do you realize what you're saying, JFM? Who wouldn't like to be compared...and usually favorably...with the person generally considered the best in the field? Do you think Tom Cruise would feel put upon to be compared favorably to Paul Newman or Marlon Brando? How about John Elway being compared to Johnny Unitas? Do you think that Stephen Hawking would take umbrage at being compared favorably to Albert Einstein? However, the more accurate analogy might be Muhammed Ali (Voss) against the pre-Don King Mike Tyson (von Richtofen). Voss was absolutely the more technically skilled and artistically improvisational flyer. And von Richtofen was the deadly stalker who normally didn't expose himself to danger until he had secured a significant advantage. Manfred never made any bones about his lack of flying skill. He openly admitted that even Lothar was a better pilot, but added that he was also much more reckless.

 

Would Voss have taken over the top spot had he survived the war? Who's to say. But if we make the supposition that he lived, shouldn't we also allow von Richtofen to escape his fate out of fairness? Although High Command wanted to take MvR out of active flying so he wouldn't be lost as had Immlemann and Boelcke, I doubt he would have stood for it. Supposedly he had said he would retire at 40 vitories, tieing himself with his mentor. But he stayed on. Later he started talking about 80 being a respectable number, but as he approached it he bagan to say that 100 would be the real mark to achieve. You tell me, does any of that sound like someone who would have been willing to be taken out of the fight? And could Voss have overcome the lead built up by von Richtofen if both had continued adding to their tally? Who's to say?

 

Without doubt Voss was vastly superior to The Red Baron as a pilot. Not only did von Richtofen admit and accept his lack of technical flying skill, he didn't think it was significant. Hawker had essentially outflown him, not allowing him to get a clean shot until Hawker was forced to stop his dancing and try to "escape" (note to Widowmaker, slower DH2 trying to escape a single faster machine...didn't work then, probably wouldn't have for Voss against six SE5's, either). Von Richtofen considered aerobatics largely useless, sticking to what Boelcke had once told him, "Fly close to (your) man, aim well, fire and of course he falls down." And as I said before, even McCudden testified to Voss's skill. Of course, that in itself could have been a sort of propaganda..."The enemy pilot was amazingly skilled, but we're better." Who knows?

 

Certainly von Richtofen was an excellent shot and tactician, but I think his greatest strength, and what kept him alive for so long, was his situational awareness. Not much is said of it, but a few things make me think it must have been remarkable. For one, Udet once said that after a fight von Richtofen would review what happened with all of his pilots and he was always impressed by how the Rittmeister could tell each pilot what they had done and what they could do better. He said it gave him comfort in a fight knowing that von Richtofen would know if he got into trouble and would come to help him out.

[Gremlin_WoH 0]

...

 

Richthofen: 80

Everyone else: <80

 

Erich Hartmann: 352

 

Just kidding

[Wels 2]

Hello,

apart from being a bold pilot, probably with a showing-off attitude (don't forget he was quite young, almost all combat pilots were, and still are today), he was also hung-over from a party the night before or so it seems.

Anyway we had those discussions over at the aerodrome forum, and in former times it had been always my idea that he could have flown, or better climbed away from the fight, with the climbing abilities of his F1 Dr. test plane (also having a bigger engine than the later Dr.I series).

 

But:

knowing about the RFC and the pilots engaged in this fight, along with the speed and force of the SE5a, it may well be they would not have let him go away that easily - even with a relatively sluggish, but fast SE5 they could have followed him from greater distances while gaining altitude, and i think even Voss must have realized he was fighting for his life.

What is strange is that he was still peppered with bullets (the last time), when he must have been already wounded, if not already dead, propellor standing and gliding in a more or less straight line towards the west - because one of the RFC pilots said " ... if i could only have brought him down alive". But i understand you cannot be reluctant or picky after fighting for your life for 10+ minutes in the air, and you can get really angry during a fight - hrrm at least i sometimes get in this sim lol

 

Thanks and greetings,

Catfish

[Olham 164]

WELS: What is strange is that he was still peppered with bullets (the last time), when he must have been already wounded, if not already dead, propellor standing and gliding in a more or less straight line towards the west - because one of the RFC pilots said " ... if i could only have brought him down alive".

 

I don't find it strange. You just stand on the other side of the line, that devides the "chivalrous knights of the air" from the warfighting soldiers.

This pilot had just demonstrated to them, that he was an extremely dangerous killer of their comrades. Now they could let him go, and feel bad

for their comrades in future - or they get him once and for all, now they have the chance. And feel bad about a victory afterwards, that was anything

but glorious.

[JFM 18]

Great stuff, von Baur! I appreciate your time.

 

Yes, I assure you I know what I'm saying. And we are in agreement on many points. However, based on ca. 14 years of observation I have found over and over that many do not consider MvR the best. Fair enough. However, many of these people who say Voss was better than MvR then go on to compare various aspects of Voss's career with Richthofen's in an obvious attempt to lend further credence to Voss. I say, why? I thought Manfred was an "overrated coward"(as I've read claimed)? In my eyes, crystal ball suppositions regarding what MvR would have done if he were Voss or what Voss would have done had he lived beyond 23 September do nothing but detract from Voss's accomplishments that ought to and can stand on their own. I guess it's fun to debate the "what ifs" from time to time but too often these debates have been used as psuedo-evidence. This is a historical disservice.

 

I can't debate supposition; anyone can spin anything with it. "Voss would have outscored MvR had he lived" assumes a whole host of things and excludes a whole host of other things to support that supposition. To counter that-which-never-happened assumes still more things. To me, it becomes as silly as debating politics that might happen "if." Again, I suggest Voss would have died had he fought during Bloody April. That supposition holds just as much water as claiming he would have bested MvR's record had he lived beyond 23 September. Actually, come to think of it, it holds more water--Voss did die, and he did not best MvR's record. LOL You can see the foolishness of it all...

 

I respectfully disagree Hawker outflew Manfred. For all his aerobatics, etc., they didn't elude MvR at all. Manfred just waited for that to end and then went after him and shot him down. You must remember that for most of the MvR/Hawker encounter, Hawker was on the defensive. At no time was he able to even get a shot off (and don't be fooled by the poor translations that claim he did--he did not). So, for all that stunting, what did it get him? 1) Unable to attain firing position and 2) unable to evade Richthofen. Richthofen did both: he evaded Hawker during their circling, and then gained firing position and shot him down. To me, these facts demonstrate unquestionably that Richthofen outflew Hawker.

 

As a general aside, IMO too much is made of Manfred's comment he shot down his first twenty while still having difficulties flying. He'd been a pilot for 9 months before he shot down his first plane with Jasta 2, having flown numerous combat sorties without operational accident, including while flying the tricky LFG Roland C.II Walfisch. He even flew through ("under" is more accurate) a thunderstorm and survived; despite his astoundingly poor judgment to takeoff as that storm approached, it takes more than luck to get through one of those. His first twenty were shot down as he simultaneously transitioned from two seaters to the Albatros D.I--all his "training flights" on that machine were flown in combat--and it's clear to me this initial transition is the "difficulty" to which he referred in his air combat operations manual. I concede I cannot prove this. Regardless, I do know that by the time MvR wrote this manual (ca. March 1918) any "difficulties" were over, as the manual says "when I still had the greatest difficulties;" had, i.e., past tense. Nobody ever considers this.

 

Post-war, from Ernst Udet:

 

‘The two of us had been fighting it out with a group of English single-seaters above the Somme crater field. Richthofen was pursuing one of the enemy. He was flying close behind and apparently had his guns lined up. At any moment I expected to see the Englishman begin to smoke. Instead, Richthofen suddenly abandoned the chase and turning sharply, flew back toward our lines, going rapidly lower as he went.

 

‘It was immediately clear to me that something had gone radically wrong with his motor or else his guns were jammed. I looked down and saw that the ground below us was nothing but a mass of jagged craters. It seemed an impossible area in which to hope to make a safe landing. Yet Richthofen was still going down.

 

‘All at once he turned sharply into the wind, banked, dropped, straightened out and disappeared from view behind a low ridge. When I got over him, I found that he had made a perfect landing on a 20 meter long bit of level ground. It was the only landing possibility within an area of more than a square mile and so small at that, that only a miracle-man could have successfully negotiated it.

 

‘Richthofen immediately jumped out of his machine and tied a white handkerchief around his propeller. At the same time, waving to me, he pointed at it. I gathered from this that he had been forced to land on account of a damaged prop and furthermore, that he wanted to have repairs made without delay. I flew back to our base and ordered two mechanics to move up quickly with a new prop. In exactly two hours, Richthofen flew back scowling with his triplane.

‘We learned then that one of the Englishmen had got in a hit which put the turning [synchronization] gear of the baron's machine gun out of commission in such a way that when Richthofen had attempted to use it, he had shot away a piece of his own propeller. The increased oscillation of his motor had indicated to his alert mind what had happened. He didn't know at what moment his propeller might crack up entirely, spelling an inevitable crash. In a flash, his eye had swept over the crater strewn field. He had landed on the one spot where a landing might be possible. With uncanny cool-headedness he had decided to risk the landing rather than take a chance on the propeller.

 

‘As soon as the new prop had been installed, he ordered a detachment of soldiers who had come up, to haul his machine back to the extreme edge of the area he had landed on. After that he ordered a group [of] men to hold on to each wing until given the signal to let go. Then he started his motor and gave it every drop of gas it would take. With a nod from Richthofen, the soldiers released their hold. The triplane let out a roar and literally leaped perpendicularly into the air after a run of not more than five meters. I doubt if any aviator from that day to this had ever made a more brilliant landing or a more extraordinary take-off.’

 

This proves nothing, of course, but it is awfully high praise from an excellent pilot about such a "poor" one.

[OvS 8]

Erich Hartmann: 352

 

Just kidding

 

 

Go away Bubi!! Wrong war!

 

What is life without a little fun speculation. Must we be so factual all the time. If we didn't say 'IF' then we never would have landed on the moon.

 

I say Voss was the better pilot. MvR would never have lasted in a 6-v-1 encounter like Voss did. MvR had a hunting style, or stalking if you will. Always seeking advantages. Voss on the other hand flew his planes to the limits, forcing you to make mistakes based on what he knew about your planes. They both were superb pilots, but head to head, I'd bet the house on Voss.

 

OvS

[godzilla1985 0]

I really have no preferance over MvR or Voss, so anything I have said isn't a slam or praise of one pilot over the other. Yes they both were very good at thier trade. But IMHO there is more to a fighter pilot then the total number of planes he/she shoots down, that to me is secondary to the type and quality of aircraft destroyed and the quality of the opponent. Both MvR and Voss's tallies included a lot of two seaters and most were really little more then obsolete flying coffins. I'm not saying these were like a nice stroll in the park mind you but in both these pilots cases only around 1/3rd of thier kills were scouts the rest were two seaters. Where as pilots like Mannock (61 kills) and Collishaw (60 kills) 2/3rds of thier kills were scouts. I like to think that says something.

[OvS 8]

I really have no preferance over MvR or Voss, so anything I have said isn't a slam or praise of one pilot over the other. Yes they both were very good at thier trade. But IMHO there is more to a fighter pilot then the total number of planes he/she shoots down, that to me is secondary to the type and quality of aircraft destroyed and the quality of the opponent. Both MvR and Voss's tallies included a lot of two seaters and most were really little more then obsolete flying coffins. I'm not saying these were like a nice stroll in the park mind you but in both these pilots cases only around 1/3rd of thier kills were scouts the rest were two seaters. Where as pilots like Mannock (61 kills) and Collishaw (60 kills) 2/3rds of thier kills were scouts. I like to think that says something.

 

Yes you are right. No doubt the quality of the kill list is important, and should not be overlooked. Same can be said for Udet, and Fonck. Many scouts for each of them. This is a topic that has been debated over many times, and for some, it's really the final factor in deciding who is a better 'fighter' pilot, rather than just a pilot. As Udet put it, he shot the plane, not the pilot. Take out the plane and the pilot is left to his own demise, to use his skill to try and possibly survive the contact. I agree with that, although it does contradict the idea behind war, and a dogfight. I estimate his thinking was that if the pilot was a good pilot, he'd survive and come back to try it another day.

 

While MvR was a pure hunter, as well as Fonck. They shot the pilot, Fonck being the expert marksman tallied a few of his kills without expending many of his rounds.

 

OvS

[von Baur 54]

I readily concede, JFM, that ultimately von Richtofen 'outflew' Hawker because he survived the battle and Hawker didn't. What I meant was that Hawker, in a lesser machine, denied von Richtofen the killing shot until he finally stopped maneuvering and flew more or less straight in an attempt to get home, thus presenting the Baron with a clean shot. So the story goes, this encounter showed von Richtofen that the pilot was the more significant part of the equation than was the machine.

 

All of the supposition about who was better between Voss and MvR? I agree with you completely. It's like the old joke in which an admiral pointed to a lake and asked a seaman what he would do if the admiral were to sail a battleship up to him in it. The seaman said he'd torpedo the battleship from his submarine. The admiral asked, "And where would you get the submarine?" "The same place you got the battleship, sir!" If you're going to assume that Voss survived and fought to the end of the war, you must, in fairness, assume the same about von Richtofen, as I said before. And anyone who would use camparisons between any of the souls who flew these machines we pretend to fly to belittle one or the other doesn't deserve the time it takes to listen to his arguments, IMO. Every one of them, from top-scoring aces who enjoyed long careers to the unlucky majority who never lived to see 5 hours, let alone 17, deserves an equal share of respect. Because shooting down an airplane doesn't take nerve. But getting into one knowing that today it might be you does.

 

Of course, then you can also debate the term "better". That he flew unstable machines that were as likely to kill their occupants as their enemies for so long without falling victim to their shortcomings as so many others on both sides (even aces...let's not forget that McCudden and Immlemann both died as a result of their own machines failing and not enemy action) did is testament to the indisputable fact that he was more than simply competent as a pilot. And yet he himself seemed not only to accept but almost take pride in saying that he couldn't perform more than rudimentary aerial maneuvers. He wasn't a stunt pilot, he was a combat pilot, as was Voss. And as such all that mattered was putting rounds on target. In that both excelled.

 

BTW, I'll take the story you quoted as support for my contention that von Richtofen's SA was second to none. To immediately recognize a problem, diagnose its probable cause, realize exactly how serious it is and identify "the only landing possibility" takes a level of awareness most don't have. An interesting story, too. I hadn't heard it before. But then Udet is one of the few pilots whose stories I haven't read. When I was in high school (40-some years ago) I devoured all I could find. It wasn't until many years later that I found out many had been ghost-written and most likely sensationalized by the writer.

 

As for MvR being an "overrated coward", I hope you're either quoting an opinion you don't share or kidding. While wartime propaganda may have been able to make him into some kind of superhuman killing machine in an attempt to instill fear into enemy pilots and make them worry each time they saw a German aircraft, "Is that him?", I doubt so much good would have been said after the war and by such distinguished aviators as Udet. The dime novels of the American Old West played up their subjects and made them larger-than-life heroes. But time has revealed the truth, or at least stripped away the romanticized veneer (those who really know the truth are no longer in a position to pass along that knowledge). Time, on the other hand, has done nothing but intensify the legend of the Red Baron, with little to no substantiated negative press. And the fact is that Jasta 11 was going nowhere when von Richtofen took it over and under his leadership it produced several aces. That could not have happened if he was taking credit for others' kills or hiding behind his squadmates' skirts, letting them soften up the targets for Manfred to finish off. Along with the fact that actions like that by the leader wouldn't have garnered the loyalty that von Richtofen's pilots showed him.

 

Obsolete flying coffins, godzilla? It was an FE2 that almost killed von Richtofen in July of 1917. And they didn't get more obsolete than that, at that time. Personally, I'd rather take on three single-seaters in OFF than one two-seater (except of course the BE2c, which must stand for "Bloody Easy 2 chase", since I've yet to have one even take evasive maneuvers, let alone fire back). While a fighter is more maneuverable than a two-seater it can only shoot at you when you're directly in front of it. You're exposed to greater danger from most two-seaters in all but a few positions. And there were several 'ace' two-seater crews, including at least one that won the Pour le Merite (when I find my book on it, I'll edit in the names). As for type and 'quality' of the opponent, these weren't sportsmen playing a game. They were soldiers fighting a war. And observation planes were the most valuable asset in the sky in WWI (the bomber became more important in WWII), while scouts/fighters were the most expendable. From a war effort standpoint, one RE8 was worth a dozen or more scouts.