Is it just me.....

[godzilla1985 0]

Was watching the latest RoF videos at SimHq and something really struck me as weird. I have seen lots of people are touting RoF's damage model as the most realistic ever seen in a PC sim (their words). But every shot down plane I watched in those videos that impacted the ground like a lawn dart seemed to just crinkle up somewhat on impact. I mean obviously parts were missing (shot off or fell off in the uncontrolled high G descent) but after they hit the ground not much happened. I would think augering in at speed from anything but a hundred feet or less would cause considerable damage. I don't know at what height or speed Max Immelmanns Eindecker impacted the ground at, but from the well known photos of the wreckage it does not even resemble an airplane anymore, it sure don't look a little crinkled up... know what I mean? Didn't the same thing happen with Voss's Triplane, that it blew apart like matchsticks when it impacted (thought I read that somewhere). I just wondered if thats something that will be addressed later in RoF or if the devs just don't feel it's that important to gameplay.

[Rickitycrate 10]

I agree with your observation about crashes thus far. And I am not too impressed by the AI in single player that I've seen. Non evasive flying and evidently only 1 E/A in the air as the pursuing pilot was not checking his 6 or looking around. Fixated on the turkey shoot. I don't want to judge ROF by the vids but then again people make the vids available and they are glowing about how wonderful it is. So I look and see a beautiful looking sim but then I see other things too. I can't help what I see or think I see. The proof is in the actual flying/playing the sim. For me I don't think that will be soon as I don't think my best computer is up to the task of running the game. To anyone that gets ROF I hope it runs well for you and is what you've been hoping for.

[Cameljockey 3]

I just pre-ordered RoF. When it comes in I'll fly it and give you guys a review, unbiased of course. If it's not as good as OFF, there's always Ebay!

 

CJ

[+peter01 2]

Don't know about Vids you have seen about AI, but my experience is that the AI are as good or even lots better then other games in dogfighting, eg, even FE which has excellent AI. Heaps better then all ww1 games I play in terms of formation, general flying and doing what they are asked/should be doing. Neat stuff like crashing on landing if damaged etc. Seems like lots of work went into developing the AI.

 

Maybe vids by people of AI are in training mode or using lower skill level AI in 1:1 QC - shooting down planes (and just flying) takes a lot of practise in this game.

Edited June 22, 2009 by peter01

[godzilla1985 0]

Don't know about Vids you have seen about AI, but my experience is that the AI are as good or even lots better then other games in dogfighting, eg, even FE which has excellent AI. Heaps better then all ww1 games I play in terms of formation, general flying and doing what they are asked/should be doing. Neat stuff like crashing on landing if damaged etc. Seems like lots of work went into developing the AI.

 

Maybe vids by people of AI are in training mode or using lower skill level AI in 1:1 QC - shooting down planes (and just flying) takes a lot of practise in this game.

The vids were just posted a few days ago by some at SimHq, these supposedly are recent game videos and I don't recall exactly what the poster said he was using for the AI, but I do recall someone did ask and he said it wasn't novice AI. I also think he said that he had most of his FM set to realistic. It is possible he is not being totally honest. But if your saying that the AI is much better then what is being talked about (in referance to these videos) then please would you be able to post some videos to show this? It would be doing a great service to RoF and potential buyers if you could please find time to show what some of us are not seeing in these videos. A lot of people here respect you (myself included) and any videos coming from you would put this issue to rest. FE's AI is very good I agree, but anyone use to TK's previous sim knew the AI would be good before buying FE, OFF BHaH went to great lengths in their pre release videos to show how good the AI is, RoF on the other hand has not had a video posted yet that says "here's how good the AI is guys". If a video (or video's) has been posted somewhere I must have missed it and a link to that video would be greatly appreciated. I also have another question since you mentioned the crash landings. Can you tell me please what happens to the shot down AC when the impact the ground after falling (uncontrolled) from a few thousand feet? These were also shown in the videos in question and it was the most unrealistic thing I have ever seen. So is there a different setting or something or do all the planes actually just crinkle up like a halfway crush beer cans on impact?

[+peter01 2]

Hi Godzilla1985,

 

Can't post vids, it was beta.

 

If you know me, then you'll believe me when I say that the first thing I checked was the FM and then the AI! The AI are good, not like FE, supercharged, but very effective and ww1 like. It took me a lotta time to shoot one down - combination of stalls, stress (losing wings), physics (they are very light and get thrown around), as well as effective AI. I started off against Aces, and gave up.

 

Couple of qualifications. It was beta, maybe things have changed, developers always tweak AI. And 2-seaters did not take much evasive action, maybe that is how the missions are programmed in those particular missions (as they are in some FE missions) and I didn't have a chance to fly campaigns. And two seater gunners were too effective.

 

I love the damage modelling on crashes, but I'd agree an improvement would be to have some disintegrate or explode. They may have, and its probably easily done in the future.

 

Edit: had a real quick look at some vids on SimHQ, it seems like the guy is flying a german aircraft in some shooting down german 2-seaters. They wouldn't shoot back I suspect :).

Edited June 23, 2009 by peter01

[godzilla1985 0]

Hi Godzilla1985,

 

Can't post vids, it was beta.

 

If you know me, then you'll believe me when I say that the first thing I checked was the FM and then the AI! The AI are good, not like FE, supercharged, but very effective and ww1 like. It took me a lotta time to shoot one down - combination of stalls, stress (losing wings), physics (they are very light and get thrown around), as well as effective AI. I started off against Aces, and gave up.

 

Couple of qualifications. It was beta, maybe things have changed, developers always tweak AI. And 2-seaters did not take much evasive action, maybe that is how the missions are programmed in those particular missions (as they are in some FE missions) and I didn't have a chance to fly campaigns. And two seater gunners were too effective.

 

I love the damage modelling on crashes, but I'd agree an improvement would be to have some disintegrate or explode. They may have, and its probably easily done in the future.

 

Edit: had a real quick look at some vids on SimHQ, it seems like the guy is flying a german aircraft in some shooting down german 2-seaters. They wouldn't shoot back I suspect :).

 

Ahhhh I see, there were several video's from that poster so I might have jumbled some of them up in my mind, so I will take your word for the FM/AI based on the excellent work you have done with FE. I am also glad to see you do agree somewhat with me about the aircraft impacting the ground from height. While the crash renderings I have seen would look very good for a low altitude slow speed crash the same I cannot agree with on a 3000 ft death plunge or a low altitude high speed crash. Some of these planes came in hot, clipped the ground and did a half cartwheel and came to a rest. I really expected to see lots more tumble and roll over some distance, even with the aircrafts appendages slowing it down somewhat.

[Rickitycrate 10]

It's unfotunate when vids are posted to show-off some aspect or another of a game but then have some funky settings going on that do not show the game at it's best. Something like this "hey, check out the lighting effects in this awesome vid". You look at it and see a german plane shooting at a german plane with no evasion. Firing 2000 rounds of steady ammo..... you get my point I'm sure. And so many vids, it does get a little mixed up. Playing the game is the best thing and I look forward to regular Joes flying and reporting.

[godzilla1985 0]

I just pre-ordered RoF. When it comes in I'll fly it and give you guys a review, unbiased of course. If it's not as good as OFF, there's always Ebay!

 

CJ

Will be looking for that review CJ, thanks in advance

[+ordway 23]

I'm with you Peter.

 

The AI can be pretty good. When I fly the Neiuport 28 against Alb. D5s, they get altitude and boom and zoom me and won't get into a horizontal fight with me (theorectically, I should be able to out turn them.

[godzilla1985 0]

Well my boys got me RoF as a belated Fathers Day gift, while I personally wasn't going to buy RoF for awhile (just because of the DRM/Internet connection issue, I wanted to wait to see if RoF survived it first six months). So now I am able to answer my own questions .

 

Yes the DM is very good but the high speed impacts are not very realistic, well okay I can live with that.

The AI is good, perhapse too good. Seems like I get waxed very quickly in the 1 vs 1 dogfights no matter what I fly. I suspect there is something not quite right as the AI AC seems to always get off some pretty amazing (if not impossible) shots. It seems it doesn't matter where they are at in the attack as most rounds either wound/kill my pilot or disable my AC. On my end I cannot seem to keep my AC flying straight or stable enough to even lay a glove on the AI, it's really weird as I am not a hamfisted virtual pilot. While I don't expect nor would I want a sim AC to fly like it's on rails, this one seems very exaggerated to the point of frustration. I did read this "twitchyness" can be helped by adjusting your external trim pots, but for guys like me using the Saitek X45 or X52 were outta luck as these sticks don't have those external calibrations .

 

It is a very, very good looking sim no doubt but it just seems devoid of life on the ground, it really needs to get more happening on that aspect. I do hope that more content gets added soon to bring the RoF world alive and some fixes can be found for the joysticks but for now I don't fly RoF very much and with the twitchyness dogfights are out. I don't mind being shot down especially if it enlightens me to a new tactic but with RoF's lazer guided rounds I'm not learning anything but frustration right now.

[Schnitzel von Krumm 0]

I have to agree that RoF has a lot of good points and lots of potential, but it's just not there yet. It's still full of oddities.

 

One day, if they iron out all the problems and get a few more planes, it could be a really great sim, possibly one of the best ever. Right now, though, it feels like an early alpha, and they've already spent more time working on it than it took to fight the actual war.

 

Well, good luck to them. I don't regret my purchase too much, because I was curious. Curiosity now satisfied, though, I've uninstalled it and moved on.

[Ivan Putski 0]

Likewise, I`ve already moved away from ROF.

[godzilla1985 0]

Have to agree guy's RoF is definatley on the "remove from HD" fast track. Real shame as RoF has the potential and had a very supportive fan base which appears to grow smaller by the day. Have seen they (neoqb) are making a pich for modders. Even though this was talked about in the begining it's taken this long for neoqb to follow through with the original offer. Honestly I would have prefer to see them seeking help from the community in getting some bug's fixed and adding a dedicated SP campaign instead of looking for help just in making the game "prettier. I don't need 80 aces skins for the Albatros DV right now, but fixing that twitchyness in the FM or a SP campaign would have been much more appreciated by me right now.

 

 

[themightysrc 5]

Hi Godz,

 

I'm reminded a little of FE and its fate as the WWI sim of choice - or not, as the case may be.

 

Released with only a few flyables, with a UI that was frankly rather naff - my first British pilot had stick time in the DVII! - nice graphics (although not when on the ground), a paucity of life below and no SP campaign to speak of.

 

FE remains on my HD as I managed to download some excellent 3rd party goodies - some of them Peter01's (a very helpful bloke) - such as the Bloody April campaign, modified scenery that looked miles better than stock and some lovely fan produced planes such as the Martynsides, SSDIV, Hanriot, etc.

 

But I can't remember the last time I fired it up. Why? Because the immersion - whilst immediate - didn't really last due to the UI and lack of a plausible dynamic SP campaign.

 

Why do I mention this? Because I was on SimHQ yesterday discussing with an ROF fan about campaigns, and the only campaign available is apparently the canned SP one. That, allied to the lack of flyables (particularly if you wish to do RFC, or anything prior to 1918 - another similarity to FE), and the absence of a dynamic campaign with depth and immersion, means that ROF is unlikely to make an appearance on my PC any time soon. And that's not even taking into account the pay-to-buy planes, permanent internet connectivity, inability to resell, and concerns about development of the sim and continuity of play if NeoQB were to pull the plug (or go down it).

 

TK's vision for FE was clearly that modders would get behind it and enhance - and they certainly did, as the list of downloads above attests. That NeoQB are now throwing their arms open to modders is probably a good thing for ROF, but at the back of my mind I can't help feeling that NeoQB have overstretched themselves, and this is tacit admission of that fact. Given that a dynamic campaign for ROF seems to be a distant prospect, according to the guy I corresponded with at SimHQ, I suspect I've now seen enough to guess the eventual fate of the game.

[JediMaster 451]

Of course, TK spent far less time and money developing FE and it also promised less. It's the difference between buying a Ford Focus and finding it reliable and comfortable and buying a Lexus and finding broken functions, poor reliability, bad mileage, etc. You expect more from a higher-end product, not the same as the lower-end with just a shinier coat of paint (or graphics and FM/DM in this case?)

TK knew from the start modders would fill in the blanks by making his engine amenable to easy modding and based on the history of his previous sims, especially the heavily-modded EAW (even though that sim came out of the box with a ton of features, planes, and a nice big map of Western Europe). However, while modding does create longevity for your original product, it serves as a disincentive to buying expansions thanks to the "why should I pay $XX for those planes and terrain if I have this free 3rd party mod for it?" attitude. If you release a full-blown sequel you risk fracturing the modding community and it needs to be done after enough time has passed.

If neoqb has decided now to start allowing it, after setting themselves up as basically a sim structure that they would micro-charge for extras like planes, it's almost a tacit admission that their business model was badly flawed.

[themightysrc 5]

"It's the difference between buying a Ford Focus and finding it reliableand comfortable and buying a Lexus and finding broken functions, poorreliability, bad mileage, etc. You expect more from a higher-endproduct, not the same as the lower-end with just a shinier coat ofpaint (or graphics and FM/DM in this case?)"

 

I suspect there's a lot of truth in that.

 

One major difference between OFF and ROF was the underlying hype, or lack thereof. OFF has long laboured under the mistaken idea that it's going to be shackled by the CFS3 engine, which as I think most people would acknowledge was hardly a standout example of how a combat sim should be done. Consequently, even though I'd never heard of CFS3 (seriously!) prior to looking at OFF, the impressions conveyed were negative. There was no hype, because the CFS3 thing was a warning to stear clear, whilst the reports of P1 and P2, whilst mostly favourable still dewlt on the failings of CFS3. As I think we all know, OFF:BH&H (phase 3) transcends its CFS3 origins and limitations to a degree that most gamers become massively enthusiastic having experiencd the game - there's little relation to the original M$ abomination, and one is both surprised and delighted by OFF.

 

ROF, by contrast, came in from another angle. It appears to have been massively hyped prior to release - and let's face it, it was a long gestation - and the beta test reports and screen shots simply encouraged sky high expectations within the community. Here it was, at last: the long awaited true successor to RB3D.

 

With expectations that high, it was probably no great surprise that ROF generated as much adverse reaction as it did praise. I've followed the progress of the game since its release, and my impression is that many owners (or renters) of the game have concluded that (a) it's massively incomplete, (b) the developers aren't responsive enough to demands for fixes/changes and © basically it's porked as a WWI combat sim, regardless of how beautiful the aircraft/FM/DM are.

 

It seems to me that iff you can't satisfy the SP people, or MP people (of either co-op or DF varieties), then you're reliant on the reviews drawing in new players who haven't played other WWI flight sims, or perhaps those who are satisfied to simply fly around in a fairly limited universe. I personally had high (but not, I hope, unrealistic) hopes for the sim - a dynamic campaign system a la OFF, with a reasonable choice of planes that I could fly without an intrusive DRM model - but my overriding impression from feedback I've read elsewhere is that my money is best remaining in my wallet until we see how things pan out, and how the bugs and omissions are handled.

 

If it all works out as the ardent advocates at SimHQ say it will, then I might well buy a copy. If it doesn't (which is my suspicion), then I will probably be glad I haven't bought a forty quid drinks coaster.

[Wodin 0]

I've played OFF phase 3 for awhile now and two days downloaded the demo of RoF. In all honesty I prefer the feel of RoF. A great sense of flying and beautiful planes. Yes the terrian is lacking in life(though I've seen a fair few explosions in no mans land cannon against cannon) but when it comes to the airwar it comes into its own. I found the AI very handy indeed thanks very much. I do agree that when the planes crash into the ground they seem a little light and I have had one bounce of buildings....I'm sure this will be addressed in the future.

 

The developers are right behind the game and as each patch arrives I'm sure it will go from strength to strength.

 

I will be buying the full game and extra planes without a any doubts at all and I can see the day when OFF may leave my hard drive.