fighting rolands

[Creaghorn 10]

so far i have done several hours of artillery spotting and other recon jobs. first i have to say, it's very thrilling to do recon jobs with the roland. even when nothing happens it's a hell of a job to come back intact. mostly the landings are very tough. first 2 or 3 sorties i broke the landing gear or groundlooped or something, but now i figured it out and my gunner does not have to worry anymore. i love it.

usually when seeing enemy two seaters i let them go because i have to do my recon, not hunting. but if enemy scouts attack i hit also attack and my men defend theirselves quite good.

the behaviour of the fighting rolands is quite good. but nonetheless there is a downside. mostly we are outnumbered because there are so far only 3-4 four in my flight, and there is never a flight 1 because there are no listed aces in my squad. but most important is that so far i've seen all roland squads are rated "average", so they try to fight, but are too bad pilots to survive. it would be good to see at least my own squad rated "elite", so they would know better how to handle their aircraft. i would like to try it but don't know how to change it.

so my conclusion is so far, fighting rolands would be good and there is potential, they do well at the beginning, but the fact they are only rated average makes them still quite harmless. would be good to have it rated as elite, but only in my squad, so they would do a good/average job because that would make up their lack of flying skill.

[Hasse Wind 46]

So it seems they don't behave extremely stupidly or don't try to do anything impossible for bombers, but they lack the skills to be really effective as fighters. Interesting, and thanks for experimenting Creaghorn.

[Creaghorn 10]

So it seems they don't behave extremely stupidly or don't try to do anything impossible for bombers, but they lack the skills to be really effective as fighters. Interesting, and thanks for experimenting Creaghorn.

 

 

exactly. they don't do any fancy or uber moves like imho the bristol sometimes. all their fighting looks very realistic and they are dangerous. but they can't handle it for too long due beeing too bad pilots. so it would be definitely worth a try to make the own squad and maybe some others "good" or "elite" to make them little better pilots.

 

in my squad i only get recon or artillery spotting flights, as it was in real. only thing i didn't get so far is a bombing mission. now i'm end of april 1916 and now are more eindeckers available to protect our flight. that's so much fun, honestly. i really care to get to the spot to recon. if it's covered in clouds, i go down to have some good pics. all that between the miserable weather and AA everywhere around you, wind is shaking. hairraising landings... feels so immersive.

if any enemy scouts appear, the eindeckers attack them and my flight continues doing our work. if the scouts try to attack us and are not distracted by our escort, then we also attack and then you can see sometimes dogfights between eindeckers, rolands, bristol fighters and nieuport 16s all in one furball, as it just happened to me. i really care to get healthy to my drome so my photos of my gunner can be used and the possibly fallen protectors didn't fell in vain.

 

the good thing is, at least that's my attitude, whith the roland squad set to fighter, i get the right missions and do my recon and spotting jobs, but if i get attacked, than i can at least fight and protect myself with my wingmen. i don't hunt in this squads. the other thing is, flying and landing two seaters makes you really appreciate the "agility" of fokker eindeckers

[Duce Lewis 3]

I took 4 Rolands to attack an enemy airfield yesterday

We met 6 N.11 or 16's and 4 DH2's

Rolands are the speed burners of March 16 so we worked our way around them

DH2's flew off and we had the 6 Nieups at 8 O'Clock heading straight for the target

 

Pushed over into the dive, figuring we could make 1 pass then outrun them

Tactical situations can change quiclky in OFF, and 4 more Nieups popped up at 1 O'Clock high

10 swift and agile Scouts vs our 4 Rotunds didn't seem sporting so we aborted the mission

Speed seemd our only hope se we banked to port and tried to thread the needle between them

 

Knowing we had a long way to go, we kept a shallow dive for speed and watched as the pincers closed

Ca-lose it was but we slipped through and ran to the lines, over, and well behind our lines

6 Nieups at our 7 O'Clock and 4 more at our 5 O'Clock

Knew we could ourun them but I wanted to scrap so I plotted a little sceme

 

Turned about 10^o to starboard allowing the 4 to close and distancing us from the 6

Held steady til we opened the gap from the 4 and did it again ...and again

Eventually the flight of 6 Nieups fell back enough then turned for home

Waited til they were outta sight then called the attack

 

Can't really call it a dogfight as both crates are a study in opposites

Rolands can't roll fast enought get on those reversing Nieups tails

And TG's scare off any attempts of the Nieups to latch onto us

Wingnuts couldn't get into the action much but hitting "H" brought them around for flybys

 

TGer & I traded turns getting short bursts out but many times he just missed good opportunities

Finally caught 1 good and laid some long bursts into the little Nieup

He dove and milled around low before eventully crashing

Wingnuts had dissappeared and remaining 3 Nieups were a little shot up so we just flew off home

 

Epilogue

-------------------------

Rolands can be fun if you're a patient flyer

Action tends to develop slowly

 

Slow roll rate inhibihits manueverability but once in the turn she'll come round quick enough

She doesn't stall easily but lay her too far over on her side & she'll slide earthward

 

She's a speedster (early on ) but still underpowered

Managed a fairly quick reversal by pulling up quick out of a dive and ruddering over

But vertical tactics don't seem to be her forte

 

Coordinating your shot opportunities with the TGer's seems to be her strongest suit

I'll get back to you when I figure that out though ...He he!

[Creaghorn 10]

report:

i found out what the rolands are lacking. it's the same problem the nieuport 11's had some patches ago. the rolands do really good in height. they are not too good but no easy prey either. that's how it should be. but the reason they still crash is only when they get to treetop level. then they try to climb and crash tailfirst. so would be possible to fix the FM to behave better when low, like it was done for the bebes?

[Bullethead 12]

Curiosity finally got the better of me and I made the suggested tweak to the Fee file, turning them into "fighter_bombers". Given what Pol's said several times, I was expecting things to go horribly wrong, but I was pleasantly surprised.

 

For my experiment, I tried 21 Squadron on 1 Jan 1917, which is the only "good" Fee fighter squadron AFAIK. Most of the rest are "average" and 1 or 2 or "poor". I have no idea what the Fee bomber squadrons are like--I've never looked.

 

At least with "good" AI pilots, Fee "fighter_bomber" wingmen neither maneuver like Brisfits nor fail trying to and stall. Instead, they just make wide, horizontal turns. This seems realistic to me.

 

When I gave them free rein with the "attack" order, nothing much happened. While they seemed somewhat interested in their designated target, they made no attempt to cut inside his turns to close the range. Instead, they wandered around in big flat curves while the Albatros danced around. OTOH, this at least was an improvement from having "tactical_bomber" mentality. They stayed together instead of scattering to the 4 winds, and they didn't just fly off in a straight line presenting their undefended tails to their attackers. They took pot shots and any Albatros that came along and it was pretty much a stand-off, which is how I understand most Fee fights were. The main problem with this order for them was that they wandered off and left me alone.

 

What I found worked best was me giving them the "Help Me" command instead. While I flopped around madly dueling some of the enemy, my wingmen circled around nearby practically doing a Lufbery Circle with me and my opponents in the middle. This was GREAT! No matter which way I was pointed, one of my wingmen always had my back and meanwhile they were defending each other from the rest of the enemy, too.

 

I really like this change. I can stop doing my makeshift "Rally to Me, Lads" Lufbery Circle, which required way more attention than I really wanted to spare and didn't work that well anyway. Just giving a "Help Me" command now and again produces a better and IMHO more realistic result. I can either circle myself with them, or have them circle around me as I act more aggressively.

 

But that's the extent of the good news. Fees not in my flight don't seem to act any different than before. When flying as a German, it's still the usual mass suicide-by-Albatros. You know, "shoot my engine as I fly along slowly in a straight line".

 

 

[zoomzoom 2]

Interesting reports regarding the Roland behaviour. I haven't tried it yet myself, simply because I can't figure out which squads you have altered once you have changed the "SQ-1" etc. Files. So I changed two files "SQ-1", and" SQ-3". So do you guys know what actual units these adjust. Then I'll giver her a go.

 

 

 

ZZ.

 

 

[Bullethead 12]

Interesting reports regarding the Roland behaviour. I haven't tried it yet myself, simply because I can't figure out which squads you have altered once you have changed the "SQ-1" etc. Files. So I changed two files "SQ-1", and" SQ-3". So do you guys know what actual units these adjust. Then I'll giver her a go.

 

It's the one that ends in "Sqd" without any numbers. If you sort by name, it'll usually be the last folder for that type of plane.

[zoomzoom 2]

Cool, so what you are saying is that if you change this last one, it will change them all?

 

ZZ.

[+Polovski 460]

As I say try it with many others and they will behave ridiculously elsewhere. Tried a bombing run yet? I think the Fees looked daft with flying as fighters to be honest.

 

If we change the FM to make the edited rolands play better low down, then it will change the whole feel of the FM. Landing etc I spent some time getting that feel of landing as reported in pilots comments. Changing it is not likely to happen at this stage. We need the AI to behave differently low down really not faff with the FM. This is difficult to do unfortunately. We are already working on AI for a future version which may help with those things.

 

This topic is starting to wander all over the shop ;)

[Creaghorn 10]

As I say try it with many others and they will behave ridiculously elsewhere. Tried a bombing run yet? I think the Fees looked daft with flying as fighters to be honest.

 

If we change the FM to make the edited rolands play better low down, then it will change the whole feel of the FM. Landing etc I spent some time getting that feel of landing as reported in pilots comments. Changing it is not likely to happen at this stage. We need the AI to behave differently low down really not faff with the FM. This is difficult to do unfortunately. We are already working on AI for a future version which may help with those things.

 

This topic is starting to wander all over the shop ;)

 

 

that's a good point. i would never like the fantastic FM to get traded for having a bit better fighterskill.

as long as i understand the roland_sqd whatever folder is only responsible for the own squadron. is it right? so how about just changing it in that folder and the own squadron is rated good or elite and the behaviour of the other units stay as it always was. when i do a roland campaign, then i can work with them and really defend. when meeting others in fighter campaign, then the AI behaves as usual. or maybe only change one or two roland squadrons to good or elite and if i want to do a campaign, then i can choose them. just an idea

[zoomzoom 2]

I agree POL. If it messes up other stuff...screw the tweak.

 

ZZ.

 

PS....dont think Fe's were designed or supposed to act this way anyway.

[+Polovski 460]

Yeah maybe possible Creaghorn we'll look into it maybe for the Roland only. I prefer 2 seaters that fight back, but unfortunately it affects other areas.

[Bullethead 12]

Yeah maybe possible Creaghorn we'll look into it maybe for the Roland only. I prefer 2 seaters that fight back, but unfortunately it affects other areas.

 

Howdy Pol-

 

I don't fly bombers, I fly fighters, so can't comment on how the Fee performs on bomb runs when made into a "fighter_bomber". However, my squadron gets the occasional ground attack mission, so I'll see someday.

 

The important thing, IMHO, is that the "tactical_bomber" AI for the Fee is just not cutting it. When stuck this, the Fee's sole tactical move, even in fighter squadrons, is to fly directly away from the enemy. For conventional 2-seaters, this lets the tail gunners have a shot, but in the Fee, it's pure suicide. Which is why the Fees and other 2-seat pushers did NOT do this in real life--they circled so that each could cover the tail of the one in front. This was regardless of the type of mission they were on.

 

The Fee was a fighter 1st and a bomber 2nd, and in its day it equips a large number of Brit fighter squadrons. And, of course, also a fair number of buff squadrons. Having the Fee use the "tactical_bomber" AI therefore really detracts from the game IMHO. It makes things WAY too easy for the Germans, and it makes things WAY too hard for the Brits. There's a reason the Fee remained on the front line until the end of the war (even if by then only at night), and that reason was that it could take care of itself fairly well. But you'd never know it from the way the AI flies it in OFF.

 

I have found that making fighter Fees into "fighter_bombers" in now way screws up the game, and in fact greatly improves it. It makes flying the Fee much more survivable and makes the Fees behave much more realistically. However, it only improves it from the perspective of my own flight--all the other Fees continue to act like clay pidgeons.

 

As I said, I don't know yet what this change will do for bomber Fees. And bear in mind that you changed the Fee's flight model fairly early on--have you looked at this change since then? But at least for fighter Fee squadrons, IMHO this would be a very worthwhile change.

[Duce Lewis 3]

I spent some time getting that feel of landing as reported in pilots comments.

Landing the Roland will never be a stroll in the park with that wing placement

But pushing Zoom all the way back allows more usage of the wing cutouts to see the ground/horizon

Thanks for looking at the FM Pol

[Olham 164]

Here's my trick, how to "sit up" as a pilot of such crates:

 

You duck deep down and press "re-center" for TrackIR;

then you sit up straight and tall, and can possibly look over the nose.

It's not false play, as the pilot might have been able to stretch up a bit, I think.

[Creaghorn 10]

Yeah maybe possible Creaghorn we'll look into it maybe for the Roland only. I prefer 2 seaters that fight back, but unfortunately it affects other areas.

 

 

thank you for considering it, sir