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Check Six

Project Aerodromes

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I saw a thread started by Dirk (dirk98?) about requiring more detailed maps so he could navigate by map and looking over the side, but he was a bit disappointed that the OFF maps weren't accurate enough or had aerodromes missing or some such thing. Rabu replied that he had supplied some good quality WW1 maps, but dirk was again disappointed in the fact there were no aerodromes on them.

 

OK. Here is the answer.

 

It's called "Project Aerodromes". (OK I knew I had it at home, but didn't want to mention anything until I had located it).

 

A 40 page document (about 30 maps, pretty accurate in identifying aerodromes only) that gives a master map, larger detailed maps, and confirmed and suspected aerodrome positions for the four years of WW1. (suspected because, for instance, an aerodrome might be located half way between two towns, and some may refer to it as "town x aerodrome" and others "town Y aerodrome"...it's all explained on the opening couple of pages his methodology).

 

Olham stated that Dej was looking at locating aerodromes as a long-term project but was unsure how far he had got.

 

Devs...Dej...drop me a private message if you think you'd like more detail.

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Great news, I hope we can have some really detailed maps soon, either ingame or even as download to print and laminate.

 

itifonhom

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I would suggest that, if possible, the initial maps with dromes be released to the OFF community at large as soon as the first draft is done so that all those who want to make use of them can go to a specific AO and make entries and notes of not only the drome placements but also various landmarks, woods, towns, roads, etc. If we have a bunch of us doing this we will end up much sooner with accurate maps that coordinate with the OFF landscape. Just a thought.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

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Hi, Check Six

 

Some time ago, I made a great find of trench- / field maps at the McMaster University.

Dej then started that project, to build maps for Google, with excerpts of the field maps

laying over it, half transparent, and the sign for the aerodrome, with a text bubble

saying what it was, and when it was used by whom.

 

I don't know, if he is still at it - one of the problems might be the copyrights for those maps.

 

But here I give you that adress. Click on 1:5.000 and 1:40.000 scale.

You get the whole front area there, and can now click at one of the squares for regions.

Then you will get a list of all the maps for that, in varying scales, for different times of war

etc. You can zoom into those maps, and you will find many blue or red aircraft signs for the

aerodromes on both sides.

It may help you to locate many of your known ones accurately. I'm sure you will love them.

 

http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/WW1_Maps.htm

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Hi, Check Six

 

Some time ago, I made a great find of trench- / field maps at the McMaster University.

Dej then started that project, to build maps for Google, with excerpts of the field maps

laying over it, half transparent, and the sign for the aerodrome, with a text bubble

saying what it was, and when it was used by whom.

 

I don't know, if he is still at it - one of the problems might be the copyrights for those maps.

 

But here I give you that adress. Click on 1:5.000 and 1:40.000 scale.

You get the whole front area there, and can now click at one of the squares for regions.

Then you will get a list of all the maps for that, in varying scales, for different times of war

etc. You can zoom into those maps, and you will find many blue or red aircraft signs for the

aerodromes on both sides.

It may help you to locate many of your known ones accurately. I'm sure you will love them.

 

http://library.mcmas...w1/WW1_Maps.htm

 

 

You are correct about the copywrite isses Olham, it has a lot to do with it.

 

Also, with OFF, Winder did his best to accurately place each known aerodrome at each location, or best possible. One of the items we discussed was to possibly have specific models of certain Aerodromes that were more prevailent, or for that matter, lasted longer than the usual fly-by-night dromes did. We hope someday we can do that, it's a huge task...

 

Also, with the dromes, there is more to it that it appears. Maybe Winder or Polovski can explain it better, but it has a lot to do with global layering, and other stuff like that. There are dromes active at certain times that should not be there, but again, this was a HUGE process for Winder to undertake and he certainly did a good job of it. Again, in the future, we hope to have dead, or destroyed dromes littering the landscape as the front shifts back and forth, then maybe those become active again.. etc. It's all something we hope to do sometime, but who knows when.

 

My point in saying this is that to use an accurate map, and to expect to see every single detail in OFF match that map, is really stretching the seperation betweem RL and a sim. Sure, I'd love to see my house as I fly over my town in FSX, but you have to realize limits in sims... they are afterall simulations of reality.

 

But, if we can do it, you know, we'll try. We love to push the boundry at OBD Software... good.gif

 

OvS

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.

 

I can appreciate the vast difficulties in attempting to get the sim landscape to match up with an historical map of the area, and I don't know that it could ever be done 100%. However, I still like to fly by map and compass, so my current procedure in OFF is as follows:

 

I start with rabu's historical Western Front maps that he has kindly made available in the download section. I then go to my Paint.NET program and paste together the sections I need to create the AO for my current campaign pilot. I size this to 3400 x 3400 pixels with the center of my AO roughly in the center of my new cockpit map. Next, I go into the sim and use my first flight as a new pilot to snap a picture of my in-sim map and consider it one of several "Cook's Tours" of my new AO. Afterwards, I open the photo of the in-sim map in Paint.NET, crop it and resize it to fit over my new cockpit map as closely as I can, then drop it into it's own layer and make it semi-transparent so I can look through it. Now for the "adjustment" part of this trick. Because the in-sim map will not precisely fit on top of the real map you have to start at the middle and line up a major town there, then mark in the aerodromes in that vicinity in their own layer, after which you adjust up and down and left and right to the next major towns and do the same thing over each time with the aerodromes in those vicinities. When you are done you will have a preliminary cockpit map that looks something like this, (Allied dromes are blue dots, German dromes are red dots, NML is the semi-transparent dark line):

 

 

Armentieres_Map_RFC29_Summer_1916.jpg

 

Once you have your map this far you can print a copy however you choose and then mark it up with drome placement corrections, noteworthy landmarks, and the like, and in about three to four flights in your AO you will end up with an accurate map of the in-sim landscape. Yes, I know this involves a certain amount of time and effort on your part, but if you are into the immersion factor you can appreciate that this is exactly what your WWI counterpart was doing for the first several weeks he was flying about in his newly assigned area of operation.

 

 

They call me MR. Anal Retentive. biggrin.gif

 

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

.

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Yes, I see - so for now, an aerodrome may be in a circa position to the real one; or two fields,

that had been near each other in RL, would have been made into one in OFF, and so on?

 

So, what you CAN do perhaps, Check Six, is to ask everyone for their airfield's latitude and longitude

values (which you can get by pressing "Z", I think - check the "controls").

Now, if you collect these data, and give your maps the Lat./Long. scale at the top and the side, the

dromes could now be put in there, where they are in OFF (no matter, where they had exactly been in RL).

What do you say to that?

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OvS,<BR><BR>This project does have "defunct" aerodromes in it, as you say, they sometimes get abandoned as the lines move etc, and may be too close to the actual fighting to be used after a "push", and so they fall into disuse. This project lists all the known aerodromes, and some that were "suspected" or where they were described as being.<BR><BR>There's also a fair few places indicated where the famous Aces fell. <BR><BR>I really hope this will be useful. To most of us who use the in game map as sufficient (because we CHEAT and use the TAC and other artificial aids)> If you wish to fly using a piece of paper on your lap and look over the sides, this project, in conjunction with either rabu's maps or google etc, and you mark in the postions of these aerodromes, will get you home. <BR><BR>Unfortunately, I left it at work, and just got home. I will scan the main map and post that tomorrow (err...later today. SHEESH, I gotta got a REAL job, working during the day). <BR><BR><BR>Olham,<BR><BR>I'll post the main map which will give you some idea of what I have. It's marked along the top, bottom and sides by letters and numbers. At the end of the project is a list of aerodromes.  You look up (for instance) Vert Galant, it will tell you which map it is in, and which quarter of the map it's in. Then you go and look at that more detailed map, and you look for square "A" quarter (for instance), which indicates the top right quarter of the detailed map, and you will see where that aerodrome is located. The KNOWN aerodromes are marked with a black box, and the possibles are marked with a clear box. If an Ace fell in that map, it might be marked "Albert Ball fell here"..."Albert Ball memorial here"..."MvR fell here"..."MvR buried here".

Edited by Check Six

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Check Six, please read my first post.

 

Lou, you are doing a great immersive amount of extra work, and I assume,

you are much more careful with your pilots then, than I usually am. Great.

 

And what people sometimes call you, is what they helplessly call everyone,

who is doing a much more precise job than they ever would. So don't worry.

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Check Six, please read my first post.

 

Lou, you are doing a great immersive amount of extra work, and I assume,

you are much more careful with your pilots then, than I usually am. Great.

 

And what people sometimes call you, is what they helplessly call everyone,

who is doing a much more precise job than they ever would. So don't worry.

 

 

Olham,

 

I DID read your first post. You seem to think I am doing this project, but it is not my work, it is completed research that I dug out of my batcave because I knew the total immersion guys would L.O.V.E this. So basically, I'm not changing it, not adding Lat and Long, not quizzing Pol and Winder and such about where THEY placed aerodromes (whether there was one there historically or not...we all know they can't get them all, and they are not all perfectly positioned).

 

I can't recall the name of the researcher that did this, I'll post it later on today.

 

5am...I just sat through 6 hours of my shift watching the Site Supervisor trying to get his monthly report together, and failing dismally. He finally left when I told him I would fix it. That gave me one and a half hours to complete all of my work (after posting this thread and the VC Citations one grin.gif ). I got my work done ('cos I'm good at my job), and stayed back 30 minutes fixing his mistakes. But the guy that relieved me was pi#$%#d off that I was doing the same thing to him, so I emailed it to myself at home, and left and worked on it here. Fixed it and emailed it to my boss...he'll see it first thing in the morning (at 8 o'clock) and of course, the idiot will call me, KNOWING I got three hours sleep. SIGH!

 

When I return to work, I'll scan some stuff and show you guys what this project (NOT MY WORK!) is about.

 

Steve

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Hey Steve,

 

Tough day by the sound of it... I've had a run of those too.

 

Now, your referenced Aerodrome Project, is it the one that Hugh Wynne did? Shredward sent me the maps associated with that, and AFAIK the OFF aerodrome locations are based on it, constrained by the limitations of the CFS3 engine.

 

What I'm doing is overlaying 1918 trench maps on the modern landscape in Google Earth (modern, but surprisingly many features still extant) and pinpointing aerodrome locations thereby.

 

What I can say, if you're referring to Hugh Wynne's work, is that some of the locations seem inaccurate. I've offered revised locations to the Dev Team if they wish to use them.

 

I don't feel constrained by copyright where Olham's McMasters link is concerned as I consider it in the public domain, so the work goes on, albeit slowly.

 

I think though, that better resolution, navigable maps incorporated into OFF is a worthwhile trade-off for accuracy and if the Dev Team's efforts are directed at that rather than the aerodromes being bang on the co-ordinates that would get my vote. As OvS implies... or rather, I infer. 'Course some die-hard immersionites wouldn't use 'em anyway and would follow Lou's method or similar.

 

All the same, the premise of the whole statement above is bollocks if you're not referring to Hugh Wynne's work so I'm very much looking forward to your scans.

 

And I post this to position what I'm doing rather than make any critical comment on what you've said... although my post does perforce have some viewpoints of mine own therein.

Edited by Dej

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.

 

This is all super stuff for folks like me who are interested in all historic aspects of the Great Air War, and anything that can be used as an aid in the OFF sim, well even better. I am curious how closely the drome locations on the maps you've mentioned will match up with those in the sim, as this is the issue I have been attempting to overcome with the method I described above. As time goes on I want to end up with a full set of accurate Western Front maps that show the important features accurately so that we can fly by map and compass if we choose to. So far I am about 50% done with the Armentieres/Lille AO map I pictured in my post and have not only been getting drome placements to correspond but also the large wooded areas as these are very helpful when navigating. Roads and rivers are already very close.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

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OK gentlemen...Here's how it works.

 

Here is the main map

 

 

 

 

You look for the area of operations you wish to position the aerodromes on rabu's great maps. Find a cross index map number (for instance B-4).

 

 

 

 

Select that map and away you go.

 

 

If you want to find where any aerodrome is on these maps, go to this index...

 

 

 

Select the aerodrome alphabetically, find the map reference, and there are four quarters to each map (detailed on the main map).

 

Like I said, I personally just cheat and fly by waypoints and using TAC, and I have no qualms at all using the in-game map (but that's only if I've flown off course, and that's usually because of a protracted combat. I pull up the ingame map to ascertain my orientation (I don't use a compass) and basically close the map thinking to myself "I need to fly in the direction of about 2 o'clock to get home", and then close the map and run. Once over friendly territory, I can cycle through my waypoints until I locate the one that leads me home.

 

Oh...BTW...this research is the work of H Hugh Wynne.

Edited by Check Six

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I got an email from a member inquiring about the maps..

 

The The original, large, paper maps which are the basis of the sets I first did were lent to me by Hugh Baldwin, "Bletchley," back in mid 2006. It was a project to bring some maps into the Over Flanders Fields W.W.I. flight simulation as well as supply maps for others interested in this period of W.W.I. history. The original maps were badly creased, ripped and worn and being very large I had to scan them in pieces, then paste it all together accurately in Photoshop and then restore it and enhance it. The completed maps were available for down load on Polovsky's Over Flanders Fields website for several years and on the Aerodrome Forum.

 

I had always planned on doing a series of smaller cut up versions for printing on standard letter size paper so that a OFF player could more easily use them in game, have room for notes, etc. I have finally did that after the several requests after the release of OFF phase 3, "Between Heaven & Hell" last January 2009. I cut them up and added coordonates and borders so that the feeling is one of more authentic maps of the period. You can dl them here:

 

Western Front 1915-16

Somme 1916

 

Dej and Olham got interested in mapping the dromes in March 2009 and started trying to locate them accurately.

 

Chrispdm1 then got involved and started locating the coordinates using Google to accurately locate them and overlay them on my maps. I worked with him on the graphics end of it creating icons for the airfields and altering my earlier maps. He has done a tremendous amount of work on this starting with the British fields, then moving on to the French fields and Ted Harrity added his historical input to locating them over time during the war. Dirk also got involved helping Chrispdm1 and OilPainto1 also got involved.

 

You can download Chrispdm1's annotations to my maps here:

 

Flanders with dromes

 

Somme with dromese

 

and Chrispdm1's other maps he added dromes to:

 

Verdun and Aisne/Marne

 

As you can all see, a lot of work has gone into this by several people. I hope you all enjoy them. Once you start using a real paper map with a WWI flight sim, especially OFF (grin.gif ), you will be hooked!

 

Thanks everyone for all your input and help on this project. Salute.gif

Edited by rabu

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Rabu, chrispdm1, Dej, Olham,

 

Thanks on behalf of all OFF pilots for the tireless work put in to enhance our enjoyment of this sim. Just when you thought you couldn't enjoy it more.

 

Salute.gif

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I have 99.9% accurate maps of all areas of the western front including the Vosges. I did have to note the aerodrome locations on them manually, I've been navigating strictly by map and compass (if the plane has one) since before Phase 2. I even have some balloon and army base locations marked as well as RR yards. These are paper maps and I never use the in-game map except for the briefing at the beginning. It's just not cricket for me.

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Rabu, chrispdm1, Dej, Olham,

 

Thanks on behalf of all OFF pilots for the tireless work put in to enhance our enjoyment of this sim. Just when you thought you couldn't enjoy it more.

 

Salute.gif

 

That's very kind, Steve, thank you.

 

However, I have to say that what I'm working on will (hopefully) enrich a little the knowledge gained from Hugh Wynne's epic work rather than enhance OFF per se. Although I may be able to pinpoint an aerodrome from a 1918 trench map and nudge Hugh's co-ordinates along a bit, it'll only benefit OFF if Winder can put an aerodrome smack where the trench map indictates... the limitations of CFS3 world modelling may not allow that.

 

The difference is, therefore, that when I release the Google Earth file it'll be historically more accurate but not necessarily of use to this sim. What Rabu, chrispdm1 and Mr. Lucky have done is position the current OFF aerodrome locations on paper maps... hence usable in-game. OTOH, I'm hoping to pin down some of Hugh Wynne's 'assumed' locations as well as 'missing' aerodromes whose location is forgotten... that'll potentially be of benefit in both areas.

 

Cross-correlating all the various sources is a bloody long job though.

Edited by Dej

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.

 

This is fantastic! I have them all downloaded and will be making use of them immediately. I can truly appreciate the amount of time that has gone into this project as I have done something similar to three small sections of rabu's map on my own while flying DID missions. It is quite tedious to note and place all those OFF dromes where they actually are on a "paper" map. Many, many thnaks to rabu, chrispdm1, OlPaint01, Dej, and Olham for all your efforts on this project, it is very much appreciated.

 

Salute.gif

 

Lou

 

.

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Thanks Dej!

 

I should have mentioned that OilPaint01 was working on some very comprehensive spread sheets, “Aircraft, Aerodrome and Aces” several months ago. The first one covers all the British Fighter Squadrons from the Pilots Dossiers section of OFF and he had started on the French and Germans back in June. He copied the major values of information from the Pilots Dossiers section of OFF and arranged these items in date-order by squadrons showing the Aerodromes and Aces .Don't know how this panned out or how it could be used in OFF, but I think it would be really useful as other info could be easily added once in XL format.

 

And if you are plan to post things for DL be sure to check with Winding Man or Polovsky first to see if what you are working on is something they are working on or possibly even something that might be incorporated into OFF in the future. Shredward can also be helpful for historic questions.

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Hey, FYI, I just completed my map for the Meuse-Argonne region. It is in the download section.http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=10634

 

Yeah, I have just been using google and some good old cartographing to get these maps in shape. I got away from it for a while, but finished this one up on the weekend. I'd still like to come up with a good Alsace map showing roads, railroads, rivers and towns.

 

There is a pile of data to use on these sorts of projects!! Olpaint's spreadsheets attests to that!

 

I attempted to make a map for use in place of the in game flight map, but I'm afraid it is a lost cause. Due to projection limits and possible inaccuracies, you could never find something that would match up with the actual environment of CFS3. The simple green map is 3 mb in size and if you started getting detail into there, it would rocket in size and slow the game down exponentially especially when using the map.

 

I would like to over the next couple months come up with a complete maps package with an index and of course maps of other areas as well, but we'll see what happens.

 

Thanks for the kind words!

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Hey, am I lacking vitamins? Check Six, were is that phantastic map you showed further up?

Just went through the download section - nothing.

Is it still a work in progress?

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For those who might be interested in the history of World War 1 aviation maps and mapping, I contributed an article to the Great War Historical Archive section of this forum (under Knowledge Base): see "Aviation Maps and The Small-Scale Mapping of the Western Front". There are also links from that to the Macmaster maps, and to others (e.g. French and German) of interest.

 

Bletchley

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Just added a map to the download section.

It is made from Rabu's OFF map sections; I have stuck them together and placed the

names of all aerodromes next to them.

I know, this makes a search harder (use Rabu's originla for that), but it gives you

a very good overview over the area from Lens (N) to Laon and the Aisne (S).

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