Tactics for Reco mission

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

I quiet think the same.

 

But I don't think going roundabout isn't a option, could be usefull. As delayed take off, sometimes it's an advantage.

They're flying, I don't, they're going this way, I don't, as long as I got fuel.

 

"As a matter of fact I was detected and tracked almost from wheels up"

I had the same thought. So I don't exceed 200 ft altitude between take off and approach, when I fly the Foxbat or the Finback.

It makes the flight really intense from the beginning.

 

In my opinion, the flight must be carefully planned, but there's still options that will be decided in time, depending on what's going on.

The fact is no mistake is allowed.

 

I realised too that in RL, a pass should be done before a strike and also after, when they're really mad at you, not knowing if every threats has been neutralized.

The aim is also to gain safety when back in a Phantom , not just flying MiG.

[Derk 265]

Amazing!

 

I did a mission with a F-104G w/orpheus pod (RNLAF) over Germany 1986, and it was real piece of cake!

MiG-25 on CAP were late and Shilkas didn't shoot (?). Why?

 

No ECM, no flare, no decoy, no radar altimeter, 38' long, the difficult part of the mission was the landing...

 

I think that the short mission radius of the F-104 data.ini does limit the exposure to threats.

Short missions are safer than long mission, but it might be wrong during a campaign, during a declared conflict.

 

I wish I could do the same with another plane. But tonight F-104 rules!

 

 

ECM may have made the difference.

As from July 1975 a total of 66 ®F-104G's of the RNlAF were equiped with the Sanders ALQ-126 multi band track breaker ECM set, mounted internally. Sure makes a difference, in a post in the KB about making the F104 a "national" (in this case Dutch) aircraft, Wrench describes how it can be modified.

The Orpheus / Starfighter combination was a good one, very low and very fast.

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

Edited October 25, 2009 by Derk

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Thanks Derk, I'll do some recce missions over KB to find that post :)

I have a dutch F-104G folder on my WOE because there's quiet good RNLAF skins for the Starfighter.

I just miss the ALQ-126 improvement, I hope I'll find it.

 

I got to tell you what I just did.

Just one flight with the Finback, no crash, no intercepts, just decisions to make and to realize, over my "nightmare terrain" Wrench's Lybia/Italy.

Yes, a bit of luck, there were no F-15.

Just a pair of pakistani F-7G, it was a sort of chinese night...

 

So, take off and no altitude 'till the shore (~450 ft), 120ft over the sea and 23% throttle to save fuel (MiG-29 engines).

Then, at waypoint 3 I turned on the radar to detect where was the CAP.

I kept it on between point 3 and 4 and changed my course to get their six, not to shoot them but to avoid detection.

And I slowed down to 350 knots because I was catching them. Took the waypoint 4 course after they turned and followed them 'till waypoint 5 (17% throttle).

Turned off the radar, reached 120 ft above the ground but still strolling at 350 knots.

The pass at 1200 ft and still 350 knots over waypoint 5, what a target for the AAA!

Then military power and turned 180° to CAP course, I get down to 300 ft at 650 knots over the mountains (that was the waypoint 6 course).

I got 120 ft over the sea and kept 650 knots, because there were much fuel left, for I didn't punch the tanks :)

Then mission was over and I applied myself to make a decent landing.

 

A successfull mission on the first attempt, by night and over a difficult terrain.

I took great advantage for there were no "Big" fighters but I did three things that no-one could advise to :

- radar turned on while flying an hostile zone

- no speed while entering the hostile zone, because of the CAP ahead of me

- didn't punch the drop tanks

The fact is that it worked well.

 

So let's define recce tactics but don't let's them kill us :)

[Caesar 305]

I usually use the F-14 with TARPS when I do recce missions on the blue side. I'll either pack 2/2 (AIM-54/AIM-9 or AIM-7/AIM-9) or 1/1/2 (AIM-54/AIM-7/AIM-9) and full GUNS. Because the number of a/c on CAP usually outnumber the number of missiles I have, I try to prioritize which targets I want to smack in the teeth at range. In the event that I wind up with bandits closing for a dogfight, I've still got my heaters and vulcan cannon.

 

Just last night, I ran into four Su-35 Super Flankers, had an F-15 on the wing, the escort were flying Mirage 2000's and I was flying low to avoid air radars. The Flankers fired at range, and I returned fire, poping up, then flying back down to make them waste their missiles. Bagged one with a Buffalo at around 40 miles, fired my Sparrow at around 20 but it missed. Fortunately the Mirages and my Eagle splashed two more. One remained and I was closing to dogfight range, and realized he still probably had at least 4 heaters. If I exhanged fire with him, I'd likely be killed and MIGHT hit him with one of my two AIM-9M's, so I began flying tangent in hopes of making a wide circle. Fortunately, the Flanker was flying at the speed of heat and my Mirage escort got closer, leaving the Flanker to expose his exhaust to me to deal with the Mirages. I turned into him, heard a few "FOX 2" calls on the radio, no hits. Continued to close in burner (still have his burner cans to my 12) got tone, fired the first heater and it went for his flares (at this point he seems to have noticed me), fired the second and wouldn't you know it, it went for the flares too! Select GUNS when over the radio "FOX 2" and BOOSH! Flanker goes down.

 

Headed back towards the objective point, and thank God for the gun, we get in it with four Floggers (second CAP) I gunned two, wingy got one, the last killed by the Mirage escort. Head back towards the objective, speed of heat, TARPS on, One Pass and Haul Ass, Baby! Mission successful. A third CAP was flying around somewhere, but we never ran into it.

 

I admit, its not as thrilling as flying in unarmed, but it does keep the kill ratio up!

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

ASRAAM, I back. To me, your 2 cents worth 2 bucks.

 

And yes you're right, decisions I made during this flight were only to deal with current situation. Other way they're more dangerous than anything.

 

And I tried another time, to check if I can do it again.

And it worked once again, Recce Finback by night over Italy and, this time, there was F-15A/C, F-22 and mighty mighty Hawk T1/127 (w IRIS-T).

So I delayed the take off (no more than 10', longer and I feel I'm cheating), and set a course to Greece while the target was Sicilia (Gela).

I did take a wingman with me so I fly ~1200 ft to let him follow me. Throttle set to 20% we were heading to nowhere, in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea.

As I saw that all CAP were RTB, we went to target and there were no problem achieving this mission (almost 2 hours long).

 

I'd say that this success is due to the external fuel carried (5 droptanks, it's a "what-if") and the no-threat zone provided by the terrain.

Lt., roundabout route is an option, in this case I was flying 1200 ft low from the begining.

That was said earlier in this topic, roundabout routes and no-threat zone, it's getting good.

 

Now I have to deal with AAA and SAM, cause they didn't fire at me don't mean there's no problem.

 

Caesar, I was thinking to the F-14 TARPS, I have to try it.

[Derk 265]

Thanks Derk, I'll do some recce missions over KB to find that post :)

I have a dutch F-104G folder on my WOE because there's quiet good RNLAF skins for the Starfighter.

I just miss the ALQ-126 improvement, I hope I'll find it.

 

Well, this really got me into flying recce missions again: very low level,

 

 

my own 306 Sq. KLu RF-104G, adapted decal.ini (great skin !!) with Baffmeisters FM, Orpheus pod, gun removed, empty weight lowered, 357 kg extra fuel , 4 external fuel tanks, ECM added, great fun.

Just one thing: can't get the tanks right. Wrench did a fix a long time ago in which he said there were still issues to be solved ( the tanks are still showing up the wrong way with the camo to the side instead of on top). Was anything done since to correct it ?

The pic with the download of the KLu Orpheus pod shows everything in the correct position... Very much interested in how it was done or did I miss it in the KB......

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

Edited October 30, 2009 by Derk

[Lt. James Cater 62]

In the ODS mod i've found out it's virtually impossible for the MIG25 to carry out a Recce mission.

 

On the last try i attempted to climb to 70,000ft but only was able to get the plane up just over 68,000. At that height and cruising at mach 1.1 i thought i was pretty safe if a F-15 didn't take a correct intercept vector.

 

As it turns out, an even bigger problem came about. A pair of F-14s took of from a base near my flight path and i knew it was all over. The first two AIM54s missed but number three couldn't possibly fail to get me.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hi guys!

 

Derk, my Dutch F-104 is now fitted with ECM, thanks to you and Wrench.

I tried to fix that droptanks issue, it didn't work for now but there's still things to try.

I added specific fuel tank/IRM weapons stations, and I think it's the key. I've got to find proper locations and angles...

 

Lt. I do agree with you about MiG-25 recce over Desert Storm.

I'm trying to fly as low as I can and I often put the MiG in the sand because I didn't really take the time to do that seriously, I'll try again later.

Each time I climbed to avoid real stressing flying I got shot. Or it's my wingie that just doesn't follow, staying +1000 ft, I'll fly by myself by now.

I didn't try very low flying and roundabout route yet.

 

Take good shots!

Edited October 31, 2009 by Cliff11

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

About MiG-25 Recce over Desert Storm I tried roundabout routes, low flying (300->1200 ft) and the big PTB-5500 tank and I get a success ratio like 1/7.

I did achieve one mission and I failed another because of a landing crash (!!!*#£%§!!!).

So it's quiet hard to do and I run out of idea to improve that...

 

About the F-104, I added specific wingtip drop tank weapon stations :

 

for the left :

 

AttachmentPosition=-3.5415,-0.176,-0.2755

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,-11.0

 

for the right :

 

AttachmentPosition=3.5415,-0.176,-0.2755

AttachmentAngles=0.0,-1.0,11.0

 

Don't forget to change the StationID in the loadout.ini

_

Edited November 1, 2009 by Cliff11

[Guest Eject]

Hi, may I pls join in. I did a couple of Armed_Recon myself, tho I prefer Intercept, Anti_Ship, CAS, and mostly Strike MSNs. Someone up there said he flew low. That's real wise, since I did it too, having read some's post previously, chiefly when our radar picked up some latest or even oldie F-4 series. Hey, I flew mostly the MiGs, oldie like the 17, 19 and 21s as well as the latest Sukhois 27, 33. I did not wish to ess around (I mean, to antagonize the Phanters tho I was in MiG-29 or Su-27).

 

So, either I sped up flyig very high, and got back swooping down in low speed BEHIND them, sneakly and released my long-rage S-10 of China or the deadly R-77 of Russ/Sov; or simply flying low, and get the opp to get near the interceptors. With the Super Grach (correct spelling?), I could not do that for it flew not too high and not too fast especially when I used up all my AAs, and all of a sudden there show up some more enemy jets! So, with the Grach I simply used my long-range Sd-10 or R-77 first, and when they are all busted, I ooked for ground targets mostly the air def units, the Stinger SAMS.

 

To my surprise, flying oldie Cold War jets like the MiG-17 series and the 19s, were easier even v those deadly F-18 Interceptors -- provided u still have potent IR or SAHMs with you.

 

In one Armed_Recon MSN, flying the Su-27 with a total of 11 R-77 aaand just two IRMs on the wingtips, I busted in 40 minutes flying time (according to the Award Screen) all eleven enemy, advanced jet fighters, that my Wingman and rest of the squadron (total with me only four jets) RTB with their respective same weaps intact. No SAHM/IRM was spent......

 

Forgive me for any typo.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hi Eject,

 

if I get you right, the point is to take out all CAP and then go for the pass?

It looks like what Caesar did with the Tomcat, and sure the Su-27 is more than able to do that (but where's the recon pod?).

It should be tried but what a risk of being shot as the aim is to take back to the base the photographs and films.

But it seems to be clear, there's four options : not detected, damn lucky, berserk or dead... :)

[Derk 265]

Thanks Derk, I'll do some recce missions over KB to find that post :)

I have a dutch F-104G folder on my WOE because there's quiet good RNLAF skins for the Starfighter.

I just miss the ALQ-126 improvement, I hope I'll find it.

 

Well, this really got me into flying recce missions again: very low level,

 

 

my own 306 Sq. KLu RF-104G, adapted decal.ini (great skin !!) with Baffmeisters FM, Orpheus pod, gun removed, empty weight lowered, 357 kg extra fuel , 4 external fuel tanks, ECM added, great fun.

Just one thing: can't get the tanks right. Wrench did a fix a long time ago in which he said there were still issues to be solved ( the tanks are still showing up the wrong way with the camo to the side instead of on top). Was anything done since to correct it ?

The pic with the download of the KLu Orpheus pod shows everything in the correct position... Very much interested in how it was done or did I miss it in the KB......

 

Hou doe,

 

Derk

 

Hey Cliff,

 

Good job with the tanks, pics say it all: RF-104G KLu in action.....

And for good order, this is how it was done after the RF-104G's were retired.....

 

Thanks a lot,

Hou doe,

 

Derk

Edited November 3, 2009 by Derk

[Slartibartfast 153]

Me I prefer doing Sead missions but as to the setup for doing Recce flights I prefer to do them using the old RAF Jaguars as we would use them...

 

Not so much straight line speed as an RF-4C or other recce birds and so far the only thing I know that works is as follows :-

 

Plan you sortie plan your sortie

 

Fly Vlow below 100ft once into the Bad guys Airspace and sometimes this does defeat even the dreaded SA-10/11 combo.

Use Terrain to hide from Radar.

Use ECM only when needed.

Never fly straight for long.

Always keep one eye on the RWR and 2 eyes outside of the cockpit looking for Interceptors.

When your drop tanks are empty if you've not dropped them already drop them.

If it looks too hot to enter the area from the way you thought you had planned to enter the photo area fly past it and enter the area from behind that way you get the shot and you are already running for home.

Stay Low Level on your egress there's nothing worse than stooging out at 5000ft and having a SAM chop your tail off.

Use Chaff Flares and lots of Jinking never fly straight.

Know your enemy know his strong/weak points and your own strong/weak points.

Practice your low flying skills and keep practising.

When all else fails turn for home and accept that sometimes its too tough to get through. e.g. 4 Su-27's 4 Mig-29's and 2 SA-10 Sites with 2S6 batteries protecting the target.

Never drop your guard until you have landed and the sortie is over.

Use your friends other flights etc to help you out.

 

Oh and last comment never get into a dogfight even if you hold all 5 of the ace cards and think you can win you are there to take photo's not put stars on the jet.

 

Oh and have a chat with lady luck to see if she can look over you every now and again...

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hi PACMAN!

 

Tell me, do you carry a recon pod with your RAF Jaguar?

If yes, please, which one? (can you post a picture?)

 

As usual, I tried to complete a recce by your way (it's pretty clear explained and it's quiet always the same) but I didn't make it!

You know... Parani what-if, nightflight, bad weather, enemies...

 

I like : "When all else fails turn for home and accept that sometimes it's too tough to get through", wise man!

 

I find it hard to act wisely when playing a sim. It could be a good training for RL yet :)

[Slartibartfast 153]

Hi PACMAN!

 

Tell me, do you carry a recon pod with your RAF Jaguar?

If yes, please, which one? (can you post a picture?)

 

As usual, I tried to complete a recce by your way (it's pretty clear explained and it's quiet always the same) but I didn't make it!

You know... Parani what-if, nightflight, bad weather, enemies...

 

I like : "When all else fails turn for home and accept that sometimes it's too tough to get through", wise man!

 

I find it hard to act wisely when playing a sim. It could be a good training for RL yet :)

 

Hi,

 

I generally simulate the pod by having the station empty or I place an orpheus (I know the Jag doesnt carry it but I am not a modder), on there after modding the ini, primarily depends on which mods I have running. I will get you a pic and post it here for you. I will be doing a couple of flights over the weekend so no issues... If you want I can prep you a full list of how and what I was up against.

 

Also dont worry about what your flying just know the plane you are driving it doesnt matter if your up against F-15's Su-27's or even lowly Mig-17's they can all ruin your day.

 

When doing a sortie as well I do fly without wingmen as they get spotted too easily.

Edited November 6, 2009 by PACMAN

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hi guys,

 

Here's the new trick to make Recce mission impossible to survive, even in this Wonder that is the Phantom :

Landing on a carrier to complete the mission.

 

...more practise to do!

_

Edited November 13, 2009 by Cliff11

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

PACMAN, did you take pictures of your RAF Jaguar?

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Hooray!

 

Finally completed a Foxbat mission in ODS! I got lucky as only a single F-4 fired a missle at me while i was still climbing to altitude and i seemed to have gotten a real break with enemy fighters at the end of their patrol times and heading back to their bases.

 

Oh well, gotta take it anyway you can!

Edited November 15, 2009 by Lt. James Cater

[Slartibartfast 153]

PACMAN, did you take pictures of your RAF Jaguar?

 

Yes I did but the only issue I had was uploading the picture to the site... I will attempt it again... but still not getting any joy. I will post them tomorrow...

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hey Lt. you did it!

 

Can you give more details? I'd really like to know...

 

How high did you fly?

Did you take roundabout routes?

Military power or afterburner? When?

What about fuel consumption?

Did you take a screenshot? :)

 

PACMAN, I'll wait :)

 

I think that screenshots are quiet relevant in a recce thread...

[Slartibartfast 153]

Okay here's the Jag photo's... Using a Pave Spike pod on the Centreline as I can punch of tanks etc without losing the centreline store...

 

Okay the Sortie started nice and gentle... single ship take off and then cruise up to 20000ft until I picked up my first spike then descend gently to 1500ft and then ramp up to 500kts... Once this was done I then paid more attention to the systems after another 30 miles dropped down to 500ft. Picked up at low level by an SA-6 around 10 miles from it and it fired 3 missiles but chaff and a lot of dodging down to 50 ft dealt with that issue and then ramp up the speed to max thrust without afterburn... Popped up to 2500ft to make the camera shots and then turn for home when I got bounced my a pair of Mig-25's took the lead out with a pair of sidewinders and then back to the deck and run like hell from the wingie at 100ft 600knots punched of the tanks even though they still had juice in them. Returned to base with about 2500 showing on the fuel guage... Manual apart from the screenies as I didn't want to lose the pilot...

 

Missed all the good shots as I was inside for the SAM's and the mig kill...

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

:) Hey PACMAN, you're not supposed to take out opponent fighters!

...unless it's a matter of survival

 

Thank you for your post, it's good to see the Jaguar into action.

Except for the MiG-25 kill, your mission is quiet a good basis for a recce routine and you've completed it.

Well done!

 

Screenies from the inside should be fun too.

[Slartibartfast 153]

The Mig Kill was simply a case of him or me... so he had to go...

 

I will post another set of pics from my next sortie if you want me to and will try to get the internal shots this time... and do a full write up for you.

[Lt. James Cater 62]

Hey Lt. you did it!

 

Can you give more details? I'd really like to know...

 

How high did you fly?

Did you take roundabout routes?

Military power or afterburner? When?

What about fuel consumption?

Did you take a screenshot? :)

 

PACMAN, I'll wait :)

 

I think that screenshots are quiet relevant in a recce thread...

 

Well...on this mission i didn't bother to take screenshots of the plane since i was testing a new climbing profile and to be honest, expected to be shot down yet again.

 

This shot is from an earlier mission.

 

You can see my altitude and speed. The key is to get up there as smooth and quickly as possible while keeping speed and fuel consumption to acceptable degrees.

 

After wheels up altitude is to be kept as low as possible until building up enough speed to prepare for the first part of the climb. Pull the nose up about 40 degrees and away we go. Since i already know that enemy fighters will be vectored towards me the direction of the climb is AWAY from the enemy. At about 10,000ft, hit full burners and hold until 25,000, then back to full throttle. Now comes the crucial point. By now the closest enemy fighters should be tracking and so it becomes very important to keep climbing at a decent angle, yet fast enough to make for a difficult missle shot.

 

At 35,000-40,000ft, external tank is jettisoned. From 50,000ft things become more deliberate. From then until the desired altutude a stairway approach is done.

 

Once at about 68,000ft. Things are green and the mission is officially on.

 

Note that it takes a lot of time and distance to get to the desired altitude. Waypoints should be place appropriatly.

 

 

As for the route? I decided to stay as far away from potential threats as possible. I've been downed multiple times by F-15s,F-14s,F-18s, and once by a Tornado. The best thing to do is to act like an SR-71 and use height/speed to make for a difficult interception. speaking of speed, it's about Mach 1.8 from what i've seen. don't know what the fuel consumption is because i haven;t been able to positively figure out the correct gauge (i have a suspicion) but i know that it's very economical up there.

 

One really important thing. The F-18s got me when i was either flying routes at lower altitudes or was taking a direct route and was not to a sufficient height yet. F-15s and F-14s seem to be the main danger. The Eagles with the speed and ceiling ability and the F-14s with the unique AIM-54.

 

At the moment of posting this i have my flight comp ready and so i will do another flight and see how it turns out using a similar route.

[+Cliff7600 1,148]

Hi Lt.!

 

Man, are you training to become an astronaut?

When somebody will release the Space Shuttle, you'll be ready...

 

Very impressive!

When I was practising to low down my flight level, you were raising up your.

I really want to try it, I think I'll be back soon in the MiG cockpit :)

 

PACMAN, if you have new screenies and more action reports, don't hesitate.

 

It's a real pleasure to read your posts guys, thanks!

 

Cliff