OT: How Do You Feel About Collecting Old War Medals?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Greetings All,

 

Here’s a topic I am curious to get your thoughts on. I began building a very small collection of original military medals some time ago, and in so doing have had to contend with a few questions and concerns from people as to why. Now for me personally, the primary reason I have these objects is the direct connection it provides to the gallant men who gave above and beyond and were recognized for their selfless actions in the presentation of such honors. Many emotions well over as I hold one of these awards and make that immediate physical link to the past: gratitude, awe, exhilaration, humbleness, and sadness. The reason for the last, sadness, is twofold. First is the obvious fact that the individual who earned such an honour no doubt suffered in doing so, perhaps even to the point of giving his own life in the process. Second is the idea that there is no one of this brave hero’s family or friends to keep his honor, and I prefer to think that’s because they are simply all gone, and not that they still exist and simply don’t care anymore, (though I know the latter can also be the case).

 

Being former active military myself, I take the meaning of the honors and citations of all countries very seriously. I believe it is a crime when someone claims military service and/or awards that are false. That being said, I do not have an issue with those who collect such medals and awards as a way to preserve and cherish the acts and individuals they represent, and while I would never wear one of the medals I’ve collected, (not even as part of a costume on Halloween as suggested by my granddaughter the other day), I don’t see having them as disrespectful to the world’s heroes. Better these medals are owned, cared for, and displayed by people who feel they still have the worth originally invested them than they should sit forgotten in a shoebox, or locked away in a safe as an “investment”.

 

So how do you folks feel on the subject? And because this can be an animated discussion in some circles I ask that we all please remain respectful and thoughtful. Also, I would ask that this not turn into a discussion on the whole validity argument of an awards system in the first place. That's an entirely separate topic for another time.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

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[Rickitycrate 10]

I have thought about this topic myself. I hold your position Lou. I find your position to be very well stated and I have little to add. To me it's about intent and respect. Let them not be forgotten, let their medals not end up in the bin.

[Gromit 0]

I have thought about this topic myself. I hold your position Lou. I find your position to be very well stated and I have little to add. To me it's about intent and respect. Let them not be forgotten, let their medals not end up in the bin.

 

As you mentioned: As long as you're not wearing a decoration you did not earn, I fully support you collecting and/or displaying them. It provides a tangible link to the past, and is a respectable way to honor the memory of those that served and sacrificed.

 

I've actually thought about starting a collection myself...

[Olham 164]

The picture I made of me in my best white shirt with the Pour Le Merite round my neck:

I knew it was a replica. I would find it very difficult to hang a real medal round my neck.

 

There is nothing much to add from my side - I do fully understand your ways with that.

A medal should stand for deeds of bravery, and that is something, especially men can honour.

In our human development, women rarely ever had to fight battles or wars (although some of

them did, through our whole history, and often very brave, too. There is still a statue of the

early English queen and "amazone" Boadicea at the Westminster Bridge). So they may not

really understand this.

For me, the film "High Noon" is an example for a man's conflict between his fears, and his honour

or self respect. When we see, someone overcame all his fears to do a deed of bravery,

to bring an important mission to an end under impossible circumstances, or to save another

comrade under great danger, then we become quiet in awe, in reverence for this person.

And secretly, deep inside, we ask ourselves, if we would have also been so strong, so brave.

I think, you honour those men by preserving these medals from being forgotten.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Olham

[ONETINSOLDIER 2]

I agree 100 %

[itifonhom 6]

      Well, wearing such a medal would be sick indeed. But I agree, preserve them and their stories where possible is a nice and good task for sure.

 

 

 

 

                                              itifonhom.

 

 

[Hasse Wind 46]

I have no problem with somebody collecting such things, but it would be really strange if he or she were to actually wear those real medals (not replicas) they haven't actually earned themselves.

 

Before this whole western system of medals and awards was invented, the rewards for distinguished service in the military used to be much more practical, ie. land or money or something like that, and not just a small piece of metal hanging from a ribbon. But the medal system is a lot cheaper for the state, and as Emperor Napoleon I himself said, "'soldiers will do crazy things for a piece of coloured ribbon".

[FastCargo 412]

I think personally it's a great thing you are doing. If you can preserve them, even to the point of doing them in a display (Name, medal, date, reason for award) that's even better.

 

FC

[Rickitycrate 10]

One further point, sharing. Sharing the medal/medals/collection of memorabilia in any way helps to validate the keeping of such items. Sharing the items to the interested world these days on the WWW like MK2 and others have done is a special calling of sorts and a service IMHO. Thank you!

Edited October 21, 2009 by Rickitycrate

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

My Views are known already

 

But, As stated before..I have respect for other people's wishes, and I admire your keeping for posterity

Edited October 21, 2009 by UK_Widowmaker

[Baldric 42]

Good question. The answer, for me anyway, is complex as its based on visceral and practical. To me, private collections mean that a family somewhere has lost a connection to a family members sacrifice, as they no longer are the caretakers, and its most likely they'll never ever see those in their possession again. How they came disposessed of that part of their family history doesn't really matter, the fact that its gone does (at least to me).

 

Having said that, I'd rather see the medals in the hands of someone who does care about them, and will take the time to at least somewhat understand what went in to earning each. I dislike seeing them sold as cheap trinkets, without provenience, etc in pawnshops, garage sales, web based sales. I also dislike the sales of them for 'costumes'--- If you didn't earn it, don't bloody wear it (and for me that goes as far as regimental cap badges, and other militaria).

 

Best case scenario is that the collection is held by a museum, however, as a friend of mine who is a curator at a military museum once told me, what you see on display is usually only a tiny percentage of what is available to them, the rest is in special storage. I'd rather see, for example, MvR's silver cups sitting well displayed in some accessible museum, than in some private collection where no one gets to see them.

 

Just my two pence worth of blather

[RAF_Louvert 101]

The mention of provenience requires that I elaborate on the medals I am collecting. I’ve been stopping by estate sales and second-hand stores, and watching various online listings and auctions for the last year or so for the medals and citations I would like to showcase in the display I am working at. In this search I have specifically chosen original, genuine, issued awards that are not named and have no provenience what so ever, and here is why. First, they are less expensive, and while this is a factor, it is not the primary motivation. The main reason is that due to their very lack of documentation these items are much more likely to end up in exactly the situations that should be avoided, (i.e. used as costume jewelry, melted down for gold or silver value, or just plain forgotten). I hope that original medals which are named and/or carry the papers to prove who the recipients were would either stay with the families, or eventually end up in a public museum display somewhere, (but I am not so naive to believe such will be the case with most). It's just that, for me, there seems more poignancy in holding let’s say an original WWI Croix de Guerre that was obviously sewn to a brave soldier’s tunic at some point in the dim past, and to NOT know exactly who the man was, but rather to understand he was one of many such heroes, now all but forgotten.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[The_Black_Knight 0]

I have been collecting original and reproduction WWI medals for years.

It represents a part of military history, as you said with gallantry and valor.

Totally understandable, if you are an early aviation and flight enthusiast.

 

WWI was a period of inspired medal creation, such as the Distinguished Service Medal for the US Army on 2 JAN 1918.

GEN Pershing was one of the first recipients.

Of course, you don't see me walking around were a Prussian officers uniform on with awards either, but that is another story.

[Dej 17]

When my father died, following a long illness, he left very little money. My mother was faced with the prospect of bringing me up (I was eleven) and sending me to college and further if I wanted, in straitened circumstances. One of the things she did was to sell his medals. I have always understood why she did so, but I'd give anything to have them back. For that reason, were I to start a collection of my own, I'd personally choose replicas only.

 

But, as has been said above, Lou obviously has great respect for the story each medal carries with it, albeit unknown. That, and the fact that I judge him to be an honourable man anyway means I in no way criticise his approach. I just wouldn't do it that way myself, is all - a little too poignant.

[Flyby PC 23]

For me, the only controversy stems from the circumstance of how the medal became available to collectors.

 

I've have heard that veterans who have fallen on hard times and been forced to sell their medals (even a VC) just to keep their heads above water. The controversy I might add, is the hardship of the veteran, not the willing buyer for his medal.

 

I'm sure also that some veterans had little regard for their medals. There were more important things in life. I've recently quoted Major Cain VC, who's daughter never knew he'd earned the VC until after his death.

 

To quote Harry Patch, he looked upon 11th Nov Remembrance Day as 'just show business'. His remembrance day was much more personal, 22nd September, when his three best mates were killed, and his own war ended with himself injured by shrapnel.

 

It takes all sorts, and who are we to judge? I know Harry didn't mean any disrespect, - but at the same time, I totally get what he meant.

 

I would assemble your collection with a clear conscience Lou. I have my fathers WW2 medals, nothing uncommon, Burma Star & stuff, but even though he was my father, they are his medals, not mine. They were his momentos of his war, but I have better momentos of a father.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Thank you everyone for your insights and personal responses. As I've searched about for old medals I've come across a variety of viewpoints on the subject, some of which weren't nearly as thoughtfully put forth as those here. Even though I handle harsh opinions in stride, I much prefer the tactful replies and may tend to consider them more carefully than the former, though to be fair I imagine both are equally honest and heartfelt in their own way.

 

Now then, there is one aspect as concerns collecting military medals that I do find particularly distressing. Value. It is an unchangeable fact of the marketplace that price is dictated by supply and demand, and more importantly, what buyers perceive as worth. While that's all well and good when looking for the best deal on new socks, it is quite another thing in terms of what a medal's real value should be. Truth be told any citation for bravery, heroism, and service above and beyond should be considered priceless, IMHO. But of course such is not the case, and unfortunately as soon as an old military medal hits the trading floor it all boils down to "what the market will bear". For instance: recently an original Victoria Cross sold at auction for $340,000, and not but a few months before that an original Orden Pour l'Merite went for $180,000. Yes, these are Britain's and Germany's highest Great War honors respectively, and very scarce items to come available, (and both were well-documented). But why should their "value" be so much higher than the foremost citations of other countries, or more to the point why should the others be worth so much less? I was just fortunate enough to purchase an original, early style, military class example of Belgium's premier award, the Order of Leopold I. This is the same order of knighthood as that presented to the famed Belgian ace Willy Coppens, and was in fact the highest honor his country could bestow on him. Here is that highly revered and beautiful medal:

 

 

 

 

So what is the market value of such an item? About $150 to $450 on average. I purchased the one shown for $115. And how many of these were presented to WWI flyers you might wonder? Five, and that is for all Allied flying services combined. Compare that to the 162 presentations of the Blue Max to the flyers of the Central Powers and it seems even more skewed when you look at what each sells for in the marketplace. How can this kind of discrepancy exist for such similarly paramount awards? Seems outrageous to me...and sad.

 

 

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[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I think for me, you have hit the nail smack on the head!

Whilst I am of the camp that says, medals should be available for Military (and lets not forget Civilian acts of Courage)..The 'Market Forces' surrounding them I find rather distasteful...and not all medal collectors have the respect and admiration for the person who won it, as you clearly do.

 

The fact that money changes hands (as one would expect in a market driven world) we have no control over, but I ask the question (as you do) why should the medals of one country be worth more than those of another?

 

The holder of a Polish medal for instance, who perhaps fought the Nazis during their invasion of his homeland, may well have fought and died as bravely, if not more so..than the holder of a VC or Pour Le Merit...but this bravery is cheapened by the fact that his medal is not worth that of the other two!...often because of where he came from, as much as anything!!!

 

I find this upsetting.

 

What I also find upsetting, (for instance) is the 'Level' of bravery, typified in the 'honour' of a medal.

 

Imagine the scenario.........

 

Two Marines standing side by side in a Landing craft, about to hit the beaches at Omaha.

The ramp goes down...Marine one charges onto the beach, and dies in a hail of bullets.

 

Marine 2 evades this stoccata...makes it up the beach, lobs a grenade into a bunker...get's the Medal of Honor.

 

One is hailed a hero..... one lies in the dirt!........ My problem is...why is one a hero...and one a white cross among thousands?...who is to say he wasn't worthy of a medal too?...surely, anyone who ran off a landing craft that day, should have had a medal of Honor?.....but of course..THAT cheapens the medal of Honor completely...because EVERYONE has one of those!!

 

Please don't get me wrong here...I am not knocking the amazing feats of bravery which accompany these medals, and am full of awe of those who won them....But I am also in Awe..of the people who are dead, buried and forgotten on some field or Beach or at the bottom of the Ocean, be they Japanese or Belgians...who have no medal to honour them.

 

I have to say...if there was a market for the shrunken heads of many of the Generals involved..I would pay TOP dollar for those!!!

 

But, I guess this is the way of things.... I am just glad that on 11th November, at 11am each year..I get the opportunity to close my eyes, stand in silence..and remember the brave men and women..ordinary..and yet extraordinary... who gave up their lives, so I may sit and write this.

 

I think of the Japanese people...I think of the German's and the Italian's too...because they were the victim's as well.

I also think of the Chinese...the Russians, The French the Poles...and all the other dead heroes who gave their lives.

It is very easy to fall into the trap of merely remembering the 'War Heroes' at times..I do it too!....and letting slip, that they were ALL heroes

 

I hope that kinda makes sense?...(it is quite early in the morning here!)

Edited October 22, 2009 by UK_Widowmaker

[Check Six 2]

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments posted here on this forum. I see it as an honorable act to "save" a medal that will probably be thrown out by uncaring or unkowing relatives or executors of a person's estate after their passing from this veil of tears. To wear such a medal I find a despicable act, especially by someone who purports to be a recipient of said medal.

 

Recently in Australia, the President (I think) of the POW Society (who claimed to be the youngest Australian POW, captured by the Japanese on the Malayan peninsula as a 15 yo boy, and witnessing the horrors of Prison Camps, and having those horrors inflicted upon him) was "outed" as a fraud by some investigators. The animal should be horsewhipped.

 

We have a tradition here in Australia where we honour the fallen and returned servicemen and women on ANZAC Day. Some of the elderly veterans were transported at the beginning of the march in Army Jeeps, until they could not even make it out to the jeeps. The numbers are dwindling every year, but you always see a young boy, marching along with very old men, and wearing his father's (or grandfather's) medals with pride. If not awarded to you, in these circumstances (I believe) the medals should be worn on the right breast, not on the left. Some old "diggers" don't like the children marching to honour their fathers or grandfathers, and prefer to march alone. I personally see it as touching for the youth to march in the place of their fathers etc, but I don't like to see them wearing their medals. Whilst it is obvious they are not purporting to claim they were awarded these medals, I still see it as blasphemy.

 

I do own a WW1 British Empire medal awarded to an Australian from the RNAS (Bell IIRC...not Bertam Charles Bell [not an Aussie], but another). Mike Westrop bought this for me on ebay (as I didn't have an account), but in reality, I was more interested in his Service Record which accompanied the sale of the medal. I have tried to locate living relatives to return the medal to them, and am so far unsuccessful.

 

I see anyone collecting medals such as yourself Lou, to be doing a good thing. You respect those that were awarded the medal originally, and do not wear them and say they are yours, and are not doing it as a money-making exercise. It saddens me that these medals are for sale, but it heartens me to know that someone such as yourself would purchase them.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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WM, I understand what you are saying about the award of bravery medals. It is not, nor has it ever been, equitable. It's a manmade institution and therefore flawed from the start. I agree that any man or woman, military or civilian, who has had to struggle, fight through, and endure the battlefields of war, and in so doing attempted to maitain a sense of humanity in an inhumane situation, is a true hero. They should all be honoured and respected for their actions. But then we all love our heroes, most especially the "high profile" ones. We want to, we NEED to, be able to point to the daring exploits of men like Richthofen, Fonck, Mannock, Bishop, Little, Brumowski, Rickenbacker, Coppens, Kozakov, and countless others across the eons, and hold them up as examples of the spirit of bravery and honour in battle. For good or bad, we have and will always laud our heroes of choosing.

 

Check Six, we in the U.S. set days aside to honor our fallen and returned veterans as well. WM mentioned Armistice Day, (which was changed to Veterans Day many years ago here), and that is a big one. But the larger one for us is Memorial Day. This is the one which sees special services held in cemeteries across the country, parades in honor of our past and present service men and women, the reading of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address at assemblies everywhere, and living veterans wearing their honors one more time as they weep for their fallen brothers. I attend the service in our local cemetery, sometimes in my old USAF flight jacket, and I like to arrive a bit early so I can stand and privately salute the rows of tiny white crosses the VFW puts up for each of the veterans from our community who are now gone. Every year there seems to be another cross or two added to the line. I cannot help by cry when I look at that and think of the sacrifices and the lives changed by war...any war. Man's bravey and heroic spirit should never be forgotten nor cheapened, the cost was far too high in the first place to allow such.

 

 

Lou

 

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[RAF_Louvert 101]

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BTW, Dej, I wanted to mention how sorry I was to read that your mother had to sell your father's medals in order to get by. In a way she performed a very heroic deed herself when she sacrificed something so precious for something else even more so, but then that's what heroes do. I do sincerely wish though that you could somehow have those very personal items returned to you and yours Sir. After reading your response I can completely understand your reasons for wanting only replicas in your collections.

 

Lou

 

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[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Do you know something Lou? (I'm sure you do!)

 

One of the great things about this forum, is that I get an opportunity to talk, and learn..a huge amount, from Intelligent and articulate people such as yourself!!

Perhaps it's an 'age' thing!... a lot of forums are populated by 'younger people' who (due to their age and lack of life experience) tend to behave...well...you know...like we all did when we too lacked such burdens!!!...and I like their freshness and zest for life!....but, it's a special place here, where a large proportion of us are 30+ (many of us, substantially more!!)

and we have contributions to make (and often in my case...spout!!)hahahaha

 

Sometimes, in fact very often...people don't always see things from another person's perspective...which is rather nice, as it aleviates the hell of 'Yes' men!!!....and it's fantastic that we have the maturity to understand that.

 

I pride myself (if thats the right term) in trying, and sometimes achieving to maintain an open mind...and reading your words...I am thankful of that gift!...as you have made some excellent points, for which I thank you.

 

My Father (a large and frightening figure when I was six years old) once said to me..and I have tried to cherish this thought...not always sucessfully I may add!

 

" Son....There is a very good reason why god made you with two Ears...and only One Mouth!!"

 

How right he was!!!

 

S!!

Edited October 22, 2009 by UK_Widowmaker

[RAF_Louvert 101]

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Thanks right back at you WM. With age comes wisdom...if we're lucky. Otherwise it's all just hairy ears, pot bellies, wrinkly skin, rheumatism, and wind.

 

 

 

 

Lou

 

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[UK_Widowmaker 571]

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Thanks right back at you WM. With age comes wisdom...if we're lucky. Otherwise it's all just hairy ears, pot bellies, wrinkly skin, rheumatism, and wind.

 

 

 

 

Lou

 

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Who are you again?...oh yeah..sorry, the memory is going too!!

[Flyby PC 23]

Thing is, there are medals earned for valour above and beyond, and campaign medals earned just for being there.

 

I'm sure what matters to a veteran having earned a medal for valour, is that his citation was witnessed and considered appropriate by his peers, and his mates. It also reflects well on his regiment. Whether the medal is no longer in his possession, these other values remain forever. The medal itself is just a trinket. The Victoria Cross is a prime example of this, being made from a base metal of merely token intrinsic value. (I know where the brass comes from, but I digress...). It's merely a trinket as I say, but it's what it represents which is so powerful.

 

We shouldn't underestimate the worth of campaign medals either. You just need to see how unhappy the Merchant Navy sailing convoys in the North Atlantic were at having no campaign medal. It wasn't the value of the trinket, but the hurtful absence of recognition it represented.

 

 

In my personal opinion, the market value of a particular medal is just that, what someone will pay to possess it. I don't equate that market value with it's 'bravery' value. The bravery or merit is determined by the award of the medal, not what it's worth.

 

It's like your driving licence. Once you've passed your test, you can lose your licence, but get a duplicate. It's just a piece of paper. The value is having passed your test. In years to come, the document may be of interest to a collector and have a monetary value, but it's a commodity value, no longer a licence to drive.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Flyby PC

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Thing is, there are medals earned for valour above and beyond, and campaign medals earned just for being there.

 

I'm sure what matters to a veteran having earned a medal for valour, is that his citation was witnessed and considered appropriate by his peers, and his mates. It also reflects well on his regiment. Whether the medal is no longer in his possession, these other values remain forever. The medal itself is just a trinket. The Victoria Cross is a prime example of this, being made from a base metal of merely token intrinsic value. (I know where the brass comes from, but I digress...). It's merely a trinket as I say, but it's what it represents which is so powerful.

 

We shouldn't underestimate the worth of campaign medals either. You just need to see how unhappy the Merchant Navy sailing convoys in the North Atlantic were at having no campaign medal. It wasn't the value of the trinket, but the hurtful absence of recognition it represented.

 

 

In my personal opinion, the market value of a particular medal is just that, what someone will pay to possess it. I don't equate that market value with it's 'bravery' value. The bravery or merit is determined by the award of the medal, not what it's worth.

 

It's like your driving licence. Once you've passed your test, you can lose your licence, but get a duplicate. It's just a piece of paper. The value is having passed your test. In years to come, the document may be of interest to a collector and have a monetary value, but it's a commodity value, no longer a licence to drive.

 

Nicely put!