Improvements on the AI dive abitlity

[Olham 164]

In my recent fights against Nieuports in an Albatros D II, I found I had no real advantage.

 

When one of the most powerful actions to perform would be to dive away and gain energy,

to return in a better position, it doesn't get me anywhere here, since the enemy AI in their

Nupes just follow me with the same speed, without their wings breaking.

 

But exactly that would happen - they would loose their wings.

 

Now it may be impossible to simulate that to happen on an AI craft. So I wonder, if it might

be possible to write into their "behaviour code", that they just don't dive in an angle any

steeper than XX degrees (don't know, what they could do - 30 ° ?).

 

If that could be written into their "program", I had something to balance their better turn,

some of the Albatros D II's real advantages. Would be a real great improvement.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Olham

[Bullethead 12]

Couple of questions...

 

1. How fast were you going while the Nupes were still able to keep up with you?

 

2. How far did you try to extend away before reversing back at them?

 

Just a brief dive (a few hundred feet of altitude, a few hundred yards of horizontal distance), when starting from the lower end of what you consider your fighting speed range (say 60-70 knots), is only going to put you in the upper end of your fighting speed range (say 100-110 knots). It will do the same for any Nupes following you, and they can handle that much speed no problem.

 

The whole "dive away and come back" thing isn't a dogfighting move, it's hitting the reset button. You end the fight your're in now and start a rematch at a later time (as in 5-10 minutes later) once you've got your E back. You have to dive away enough to disengage from the fight. You have to reach a speed considerably higher than the enemy can reach, or go rather lower than he wants to go, before you can open up enough distance to zoom back up or turn around safely.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Nupe is the plane in OFF that I have the most experience with in addition to the Albs, and I know from my test flights and actual combat missions that you can dive with the Nupe if you are careful and don't make any sudden moves that will make the g-forces go wild. Pull the stick up too quickly and, voilà, there go your wings. But I swear I've seen the AI sometimes do manoeuvres with the sesquiplane fighters (Nupes, Albs) that are not possible for human players to repeat. Occasionally, when flying the SPADs, I've been unable to shake off some pesky Alb D.III/D.V/D.Va that's followed me in a very harsh dive which certainly would have ripped the Alb's wings off if had I been the pilot.

 

I suspect that part of this can be explained by the fact that the AI knows *exactly* the limits of all the planes it's piloting, which takes considerable time and skill to achieve for the human player. The AI Nupe or Alb won't break its wings, because the computer is able calculate how much stress the crate can tolerate and will never cross that fatal line. But as I really know nothing about the sim's code, I'm just wildly guessing here.

[Siggi 10]

I'm sure I've read about players seeing the AI lose wings in dives and turns.

[Olham 164]

Bullethead, you can try to dive away from Nupes as you want, they'll follow you all the way down

from 12.000 feet to the mud. Watch it, when they attack your (German) airfield: they fall out of the

sky vertically. Impossible for Nieuport 11, 16 and 17 - but they do it. This ability of theirs distorts

fighting unpleasantly, as you can't play out your "stronger cards", when they turn out not to be

stronger at all.

 

Sorry, Hasse Wind, but it ain't so, that the AI knows exactly what the plane can take and do.

On airfield attacks, they fall down on you vertically, as I just said. A Nieuport or Albatros D III would

definitely loose it's wing, when flown by a human player the exactly same way.

No, I'm pretty sure, the wing break isn't simulated for AI craft - maybe because it would make the

whole program too tricky, or it is just not possible to do.

 

That's why I hope, it might perhaps be possible to write into their "program", that they shall not

dive in a steeper angle than XX degrees, whixh would avoid such unlogical behaviour.

[Siggi 10]

I can't understand how the AI planes would be modelled differently to the human ones.

 

Or maybe it's so because the devs know the AI is too stupid to know it's planes limitations. In which case the players would escape certain AI planes by diving, knowing the attacker would be sure to shed it's wings. Kind of an immersion-killer. But so is the opposite I guess, as Olham is finding.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Siggi

[Hasse Wind 46]

The only way we'll ever know for sure is if some of OBD's AI gurus provide us with an answer.

 

And just to make sure for anybody who may be wondering what this discussion is all about, let me assure you the AI in OFF is probably the best in any flight sim.

[Olham 164]

Yes, sure is. This isn't any ranting or negativity - just a point to look at.

If it could be improved, that would be great.

If it should be impossible, I will live with it.

I would still fly OFF - I can't imagine there's anything better than this.

[Siggi 10]

The only issue I see with the AI is some of the planes like to yo-yo when they get close to the deck, but as that's usually when I'm running for my life I ain't gonna bitch too loud about that

[Bullethead 12]

Bullethead, you can try to dive away from Nupes as you want, they'll follow you all the way down

from 12.000 feet to the mud. Watch it, when they attack your (German) airfield: they fall out of the

sky vertically. Impossible for Nieuport 11, 16 and 17 - but they do it. This ability of theirs distorts

fighting unpleasantly, as you can't play out your "stronger cards", when they turn out not to be

stronger at all.

 

Sorry, Hasse Wind, but it ain't so, that the AI knows exactly what the plane can take and do.

On airfield attacks, they fall down on you vertically, as I just said. A Nieuport or Albatros D III would

definitely loose it's wing, when flown by a human player the exactly same way.

No, I'm pretty sure, the wing break isn't simulated for AI craft - maybe because it would make the

whole program too tricky, or it is just not possible to do.

 

That's why I hope, it might perhaps be possible to write into their "program", that they shall not

dive in a steeper angle than XX degrees, whixh would avoid such unlogical behaviour.

 

As things are in the game, I have to agree with Hasse Wind. What breaks wings in OFF is excessive Gs, not excessive speed.

 

Now, I grant you that in real life, excessive speed could twist off single-spar sesquiplane lower wings, or so the word as come down to us. As I hear it, very high speeds would cause sesquiplane lower wings to rotate about their single spar until the leading edge twisted up enough to tear off. Hence the Alb D.Va's little strut from the main V-struts down toward the leading edge.

 

However, in OFF, most planes can't go fast enough, even in a full-power 0-G dive, to reach this point. Too much "built-in headwind". It's been a while since I've flown Nupes, but IIRC they can't go more than about 130-140 knots no matter how hard you try. Considering that their max level speed is about 100-110 knots, this shouldn't break them even if their wings twisted. HOWEVER, if you yank the stick while going this fast in a Nupe, you will break it.

 

So, how fast can you go in an Alb D.II? If you can't reach 200 knots, you're not going to dive away from a Nupe very easily.

[Mr. Lucky 0]

This behaviour has been noted previously. Like me in my Spad being followed by a DRI from 10000 down to the deck. There was some speculation that the AI , while not necessarily knowing their aircraft's performance better, so much as being able to do thousands of calculations per second and therefore knowing the absolute limits and setting themselves there without going over. That doesn't however explain AI aircraft overcoming drag, weight and power. It currently is a limitation of CFS3 that the devs may overcome eventually.So far, I have NEVER been able to outrun an AI aircraft no matter what I was flying. Either in a dive or climb. My only salvation in running away has only ever been getting down to where the AI won't pursue steadily and start climbing and diving. Olham's right, the reported techniques of using one's aircraft's performance advantages in speed or power are nullified. For now.

[Duce Lewis 3]

...you can try to dive away from Nupes as you want, they'll follow you all the way down

from 12.000 feet to the mud. Watch it, when they attack your (German) airfield: they fall out of the

sky vertically. Impossible for Nieuport 11, 16 and 17 - but they do it. This ability of theirs distorts

fighting unpleasantly

I remember a while back one of the old RB guys gave a tip on how to dive a Nupe

Kick Rudder then oppose this using elevator and ailerons

The effect results in a skid that allows the Nupe to dive steeply whilst still keeping her wings on

Naturally there is a speed reuction but it's effective

But I don't think the AI are anywhere near intelligent enought to do this

...but Alb pilots could expect Nupes to follow them down in RL I suppose

 

Diving Spad's can be caught by slower DVII's by following them down

...then pulling lead when the ground forces them to pull level

Now a shallower dive can quickly overtake him as his speed deteriorates

 

I know this not a perfect response as the Nupe AI are simply unaffected by G Forces ...or Wind!

It's probably deep in the cfs3 code and won't be completely solved til we get our own engine

[Guest British_eh]

AI have no fuel weight so they seem to defy what is correct. I have seen AI go straight down in a dive, with no ill effect. Oh well, it evens it out a bit, as the only time I'm killed by AI, is when it is 2/3 or greater, to one, or something stupid happens. Being outnumbered seemed to happen in February 1918 at Marke quite a bit, when facing Bristol fighters.

 

The fix would be to have all the planes do their historical dive speed. Not sure if OBD can manage that or not, being that it is all WWII background. The Dr.1 could dive at 140 mph. That's it. No faster. It was limited by weight, wings, and friction. The Sopwith Camel could only dive at 130 mph, mostly as the bracing was not conducive to wind flow. This made for a good fight with a Dr.1.

 

Perhaps it would be a consideration to look at dive speed for all the aircraft, and AI too, for P4?

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh