Early May, 1917: von Richthofen captured , now POW

[Olham 164]

Imagine, that German pilots would have had to cross the lines as much as the Entente fighters.

Early May (9th?), 1917, von Richthofen was shot down. His Albatros was hit, a lot of petrol spilled out,

and so he had to cut the engine and descend steep, to avoid fire.

 

Had that happenend some miles into French terrain, he would have been captured and become a POW.

 

Months ago, I had posted the famous photograph of Udet in his cockpit. Bullet holes very close to the

pilot. Had he been hit, he would not be the famous ace he became.

MvR had bullet holes in his pilot suit very often. He even found rounds in the cloth sometimes.

 

Surviving WW1 air combat for a long time needed an expert pilot - plus a good amount of luck

or good guardian angels.

[NS13Jarhead 6]

Olham,

A very interesting point. It might make for a good story - one of those "alternate history" type science fiction ones where, because of one changed event, the whole world of today is different. Imagine if MvR survived the war and took over as head of the Luftwaffe instead of Goering? How would things have turned out differently.

 

I know we've got some creative writing types here who could really flesh out the rest. All I ask is that if you sell the story to a book publisher, split the profits with Olham and me.

[Olham 164]

Yeah, and that they make a lot of profit!

 

Jarhead, as you use a Dietz painting - do you know a good website with his works?

[Siggi 10]

Yeah, and that they make a lot of profit!

 

Jarhead, as you use a Dietz painting - do you know a good website with his works?

 

Here's one that looks promising.

 

http://www.aviationprints.com/products.asp?cat=53

 

http://www.militaryprints.com/products.asp?cat=13

[Olham 164]

Thanks, Siggi - but only three WW1 pics. I know he did many more.

I'll try "The Aerodrome" again.

[JimAttrill 24]

MvR instead of Göring? An interesting thought. The NSDAP did spend a lot of time trying to get the the aristocracy on their side, with disappointing results in the early days. After all, the S stands for 'Socialiste' and the A stands for 'Arbeiters', and MvR was neither. OTOH neither was Göring.

 

I don't think the end result would have been much different. The real mistakes of the Luftwaffe were that although it was a superb army tactical support force, they had no strategic thinkers. Their cargo (ie JU52) force was too small and they never developed a working 4-engine bomber whereas the Brits produced three (of varying value) and the Americans two in the European theatre.

 

If the Me109e had had greater range the BoB might have had a different outcome altogether. What the Luftwaffe needed was a Mustang and they never had one.

[Siggi 10]

Some nice stuff here, inc other artists. Shame they're all pokey little thumbnails though.

 

http://www.johnjohn.co.uk/shop/art/art_print_trainers.html

[Siggi 10]

http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/geravi.htm

 

http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/avi.htm

[Creaghorn 10]

another reason ist, that germany had lost the war before it actually began. when germany invaded poland, some polish agents were able to copy the ENIGMA chiffre machine (i think even two or 3 versions) and hand it to the brits and other allies.

during the battle of britain the brits always knew when and how many germans will operate in which sector (ULTRA messages and orders, which were intercepted). nonetheless the recources still slowly decreased and germany almost had beaten the RAF, only several more bombing raids were necessary at important facilities. but the germans didn't know how close they have been to the win. instead of making the deathstrike, hitler suddenly ordered to bomb london (as vengeance for the allies bombimg german towns). that gave the very exhausted and almost beaten airfields and productions of the RAF the needed break to regain strength.

if hitler would have known how close they have been, or at least göring, who didn't have a clou about tactics in sich manner, history might have been different.

although i think end would be the same. it would have only take longer. but no country can fight against the whole world and win.

[Dej 17]

Try this one Olham. Again, not very big pics but lots of them. http://www.military-art.com/mall/artists/ww1aces.htm

Edited November 24, 2009 by Dej

[carrick58 23]

Another theory: There exists countless alternate universes in each of these something is a little bit different, In one airplanes didnt exist during WWI, In another MvR didnt paint his plane.In another MvR lived thur the war In yet another childern keep their rooms clean and inlaws pay back loans

[Creaghorn 10]

Another theory: There exists countless alternate universes in each of these something is a little bit different, In one airplanes didnt exist during WWI, In another MvR didnt paint his plane.In another MvR lived thur the war In yet another childern keep their rooms clean and inlaws pay back loans

 

 

in one universe the redsox have a dynasty with worldseries rings in the 20ies figures,

in one ty cobb was a good man and the babe wasn't traded to the yankees,

in one universe pepsi is better than coca cola

and in one universe i would finally be a decent dancer

[Olham 164]

JimAttrill, it was not so much the aristocrats disliking the worker parties generally.

What they did not like was the "style" of the Nazi politicians - big mouthed and pretty

megalomaniac, with not the right education behind it.

And the military elite did not like them, because people had come to power, who did

not proceed the military promotional and educational way of carreers, but where implanted

into their positions, like Goering.

And the Wehrmacht, which consisted of many aristocratic officers, did not like the fact,

that with the (non-aristocratic) Schutzstaffel (SS) an army was imposed besides the Wehrmacht,

and out of their control, following only Hitler.

 

By the time Hitler started the war, the German forces where yet underequipped and had too little qualified men.

Against England stood not the whole of the Luftwaffe, but rather half of it - the other half was fighting in the east.

 

The war could not be won by Germany due to several facts:

- a second front had to be made up, to keep England off the continent after it's declaration of war to Germany.

- the Enigma fell into British hands and made the U-Boot fleet of limited use and take the hardest losses

- Hitler had underestimated the Russian capacity of tank building

- and the terrible conditions of a winter war in Russia (Napoleon could have told him)

- America did not only supply Britain with material, but entered the war

 

I am very glad they failed, as I wouldn't have wanted a Nazi regime.

But I have a good deal of admiration for the achievements, the developments and the work done

by a small nation as Germany is.

Also, I am full of admiration for the Royal Air Force pilots, who fought to total exhaustion to keep

the enemy out the gates. For the Russian common soldiers, who fought back a technically much more advanced army.

For all those men - Americans, British, Australians, Canadians - who stormed the Fortress Europe at the beaches

of the Normandy. For everyone, who fought back the dictatorship of the GröFaZ*.

 

* (grösster Feldherr aller Zeiten - greatest commander of all times)

[Olham 164]

Thanks, Siggi and Dej.

[Dej 17]

IIRC, exhaustion featured heavily in the Luftwaffe's performance in the Battle of Britain. The second front in Russia didn't open 'til '41, but in July 1940 the Luftwaffe had already fought across Poland, the Low Countries and Norway then found themselves fighting a technologically equivalent and brilliantly resource-managed opponent over it's own turf where a downed but uninjured pilot could return to fight the same day... and often did... notwithstanding the 109's limited combat time over the South of England.

 

In truth, though, the RAF didn't so much win the Battle of Britain, as not lose it, forcing Operation Sealion to be cancelled. It was in Hitler's plans, I believe, to recommence operations against Britain in '41 but Barbarossa had kicked off and the fight against the Soviets was going very well indeed so he 'took his eye off the ball'.

 

By the time USAAF heavy bombers made their first raid on 17 August 1942 the Luftwaffe, particularly in the West, was a shadow of its potential self, having already lost many Experten in the BoB or to the Russian Front. Not that it probably seemed like it to the B17 and B24 crews braving the carnage of daylight bombing.

 

The above, of course, simplifies things somewhat, but I am of the opinion that had the Luftwaffe not already begun bleeding itself to death in the BoB and the prior storming of continental Europe, Allied losses in the bombing of the Reich would have been far greater. Assuming the incompetent interfering of Luftwaffe High Command had allowed. Nevertheless, the Luftwaffe still gave a bloody good account of itself.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Dej

[Olham 164]

Yep. When I see the number of sorties of Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall, Galland, Osterkamp and many others -

unbelieveable!

[NS13Jarhead 6]

Olham,

 

You can reach Mr. Dietz at http://www.jamesdietz.com/. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Dietz when he was preparing for a painting of U.S. Marines from the second half of the 20th century. It's called "You Will Not Fail Us". I actually had the honor of posing for one of the figures. I'm the one in the blue uniform left of center. The sergeant in the blue uniform right of center is Sgt Jeremiah Workman who received the Navy Cross (our second highest award for valor) during the 2nd Battle for Fallujah.

[Olham 164]

Jarhead, I would have recognised you even without telling me - you had once shown

a picture of you in this Marines uniform - something with "Blue" in the name of it - and

he hit you very well! What an honour!

 

Thanks for the link - I'll check, if I can find more German Jasta paintings.

[Red-Dog 3]

Olham this site as some good paintings.http://www.first-world-war.com/ww1_british_aviation_print_list.htm

[Hasse Wind 46]

 

And the military elite did not like them, because people had come to power, who did

not proceed the military promotional and educational way of carreers, but where implanted

into their positions, like Goering.

 

And the Wehrmacht, which consisted of many aristocratic officers, did not like the fact,

that with the (non-aristocratic) Schutzstaffel (SS) an army was imposed besides the Wehrmacht,

and out of their control, following only Hitler.

 

 

I think historical studies made over the last 10 or 20 years have shown more and more that the claims of the leaders of Wehrmacht after the war about their dislike of Nazis were mostly politically correct crap they propagated in order to look better in the eyes of the world and the disappointed post-war German nation. It is true that there were some resistance cells among Wehrmacht officers, but they were few and far between. Many also grumbled about the radical style of the Nazis, but deep within their souls they seem to have been quite content that Germany had finally risen out of the disaster of Versailles and that somebody had devastated the Communists, which the conservative officer class regarded as their worst enemies. And what finally won Wehrmacht's support to the Nazis was Hitler's continuous successes in the 30's - he seemed to be invincible and achieve his every goal.

 

The loyalty of the Wehrmacht was most clearly proven on the Eastern Front, where they quite happily participated in war crimes or conveniently looked the other way when the SS was doing their worst (who honestly believes top generals like v. Manstein when they said they had no idea what was going on behind the lines?).

 

If there hadn't been brave men such as Count von Stauffenberg and many others, there would be absolutely nothing positive to say about the morale of Wehrmacht's highest leaders (I'm not talking about the ordinary guys) during the war. The absolute majority of Wehrmacht's generals seem to have been morally weak, almost spineless, men, who didn't dare to try anything against Hitler even when it was clear to everybody but the most fanatical Nazis that he was leading Germany into complete annihilation. It was a really terrible and disappointing period in German and European history.

 

Who knows what kind of a general MvR would have been if had lived. He might have been great, or not. Not all officers make great generals, which was clearly seen in the Luftwaffe - they had an abundance of tactically brilliant commanders, but not many seemed to have an excellent grasp of strategy (least of all Göring!), unlike the best commanders of the Allied strategic air forces.

[Tanyrhiew 0]

I've read (cannot remember where) that Goering's joining of the NAZI party helped entice more middle class voters due to his 'celebrity' from being the sucessor to von Richtofen, an important thing to note given the rock star treatment heaped on MvR during the war. Considering the NAZI's got something like 34% of the total vote in the 1933 election if I recall correctly, its easy to see how people attracted to the party due its famous war hero could tip the balance in the NAZI's favour.

 

If Richtofen had survived the war would he have been attracted to the NAZI's ideas of a resurgent Fatherland? Quite possibly given his Junker background, how he would have felt about the persecution of the Jews in light of his friendship with Voss who I believe was Jewish is another matter. Who knows, maybe if he had survived, the NAZI's would never have gained power in the first place.