General AI combat routine observations.

[SirMike1983 3]

The AI yo-yo, so far as I can tell, is the result of it coming within a certain distance of the ground. I saw the exact same results on an old PC and a brand new one-- the AI comes within a couple hundred feet of the ground and then begins to do stunts and yo-yo. It strikes me that the AI is attempting to perform some kind evasive move because the impact zone comes within a certain distance.

 

I will also say I find the campaign AI to be in a different league from the QC AI-- in QC they always seem so slow and dumb, but in campaign they're much more dangerous.

Edited December 3, 2009 by SirMike1983

[Bullethead 12]

The AI at altitude is both squadmates and enemies. Flying Albatros Fighters, SPADs, and even the lighter planes like the Pups, and Neuiports, my own plane seems like I'm dragging an anchor compared to again my own squadmates. If I fly againts them, the AI seems to be able to perform kickbutt manouevers, if I fly against them, but if I switch sides and try the lighter plane, I still can't get the same performance out of the plane. It's like, how should I put it, ummmmmmmmmm, I can't whip the plane around like they do, and have to keep to shallow turns and light light elevator inputs, or the plane stalls off and down I go, which leaves me easy meat for the opposition. It's almost like they have superchargers even though I know they don't. One thing I have been toying with, is reducing the petrol loadout before each mission. So for instance if the entire flight calls for say a total of 40 miles round trip, I will load out enough petrol for twice the distance, which seems to help, so I am going to try and lighten the load a little more by loading enough petrol for 1.5 times the distance, but I don't want to run out of fuel before I return to base. That wouldn't be a good thing.

 

Yup, reducing weight is a HUGE help at all altitudes, not just up high. I've gotten to where I only take the round trip distance plus about 20 miles, even when I have to do some sort of patrol. I figure all I have to do is get back across the trenches, not all the way home . Also, when I fly planes with only 1 Vickers, I've started taking only 75% ammo. I only rarely expend even 1/2 my ammo in those planes because I've found the only way to kill efficiently in them is with point-blank snapshots of 6-8 rounds each. If those hit, they go into the cockpit and down he goes.

 

But there are also some stick-and-rudder things you can do to vastly increase your high-altitude performance. Initially, I had the same problems as you at high altitude, but this is how I solved them. Hope this works for you.

 

The obvious reason you can't maneuver is that you're not going fast enough. Sure, you're plane is a bit slower at high altitude than down low, but it can go a lot faster up high than you might think. The object, therefore, is to trim it so it will go as fast as it can.

 

The underlying problem is that these WW1 planes climb best at about 80% of their max level speed for a given altitude. It's like if they get any significant angle of attack, the increased drag from the belly being exposed more to the airstream overpowers them. If you came to OFF as I did from WW2, this takes some getting used to because there the planes climb best at like 40-50% of their max level speeds. In OFF, if you try to climb at a lower speed, you get left by your AI wingmen both horizontally and vertically, at least at low altitudes. At high altitudes, the planes won't climb AT ALL unless they're about 80% of their max level speed, and otherwise just mush along with a big AOA, slower than they're capable of and not gaining any altitude. Then they don't have enough speed for ACM. I bet this is your problem.

 

Most OFF planes spawn on the ground with lots of up elevator trim. If you don't get rid of that by the time you reach high altitude, you'll soon be mushing and unable to keep up or maneuver. So here's what you do. Use the HUD ASI, VSI, and AH, and make a bunch of test flights in QC Freeflight, noting the speeds that climb the best all the way up, and noting how much elevator trim you need to do them. Most OFF planes seem to maintain their max speed almost entirely up to about 10,000', but the ROC starts dropping off at about 5,000'. Above 10,000', the effect of too much up elevator trim becomes pronounced, so you'll have to make more frequent down adjustments from there on up. However, while the ROC begins to approach zero, the max level speed doens't decrease that much. Most OFF planes can still do about 75-85% of their low-altitude max speed at their ceilings. So keep that in mind on your way up and try to trim so your speed is what you think about 80% of your current max speed is. Eventually you won't be able to get any higher, but look how fast you're going!

 

Take a good look around and try to develop a mental picture of what this angle of attack (only slightly positive) looks like. You'll mostly have to compare against clouds and the sun because even without clouds it's hard to see the horizon from up there. The idea, though, is to learn what this looks like from your built-in instruments and what you see outside, so you can do it without the HUD. Now try some maneuvers. You'll lose altitude with ever turn, but note that you're no longer anemic and the AI doens't seem supercharged.

 

While performing combat manouevers, what I'm seeing is things like planes that I should be able to turn inside of, ain't doin' so swell. If I back off the throttle from 100%, the controls get mushy, and the plane wants to drop out of the sky, where there should be some throttle control for you to be able to operate between 75 and 100 % power settings to pull off some turns or slips, instead of immediately wanting to stall and spin.

 

If the other guy is turning inside you and you don't think he'd be able to, or you're not able to turn inside planes you think you should, the answer is probably that the other guy is making better use of the vertical.

 

WW1 planes are VERY sensitive to drag. And in ACM, one of the huge sources of drag is moving both elevator and aileron at the same time. Always try to move your control stick in +, using one or the other, but not both. Avoid moving the stick like an X. You'd be amazed at how much difference this makes. Now in OFF, this isn't always possible. The Fee, for instance, is SO damn stable that the ONLY way to maintain a banked turn is to hold in aileron all the way around. But OTOH, the Fee's too arthritic for much real ACM anyway. And sometimes you WANT to do both at once as an evasive maneuver. But otherwise, avoid X motions like the plague and you'll see a dramatic improvement in your ability to maneuver, because you'll have more speed and won't be inducing accelerated stalls nearly as often.

 

The other thing that feels odd is the rudder input.

 

Yeah, rudder is quite different in OFF than elsewhere, AND it differs greatly in how it works from plane to plane within OFF. Thus, there's no easy explanation here. Some planes actually have to do most of their turning with their rudder, while in a few you only use it to improve your aim. Some planes can crab along with full rudder at like 45^ to their direction of travel, some planes immediately stall and spin if you try this. You just have to get used to what your current ride does.

 

I have never tried to do a flat turn in a Dr.I. There was a big thread here some months ago on that subject, apparently mostly folks complaining that they couldn't do it. I don't know if anybody ever posted the method or not. I didn't read it all because it was becoming a flamewar and I don't fly the Dr.I much at all anyway. But I'll give it a go one of these days.

 

Anyway, this has strayed rather off topic. My initial point was merely to say that before we accuse the AI of cheating, we must be damn sure of our own flying abilities. I'm only close to mastery in 4 or 5 of all the planes in OFF, and when I fly them, the AI doens't seem to cheat a bit. When I fly something else, the AI often flies rings around me, but still never appears to cheat. If it does, it's not enough to notice. It just looks like a very good human getting the most out of his ride.

 

I've got like 15 years of fairly intensive MP simming under my belt, where I've been instructed by and flown against real-life fighter jocks and even Top Gun instructors. So I think I have a pretty good understanding of what's humanly possible. I know very well what it looks like to fight a human who is very good at flying his plane, and how that compares to how a real cheating AI looks (remember those?). They don't look at all alike--you can tell right off from the defiance of gravity that cheating AIs get away with. I submit that the OFF AI flies like an expert human.

[Olham 164]

Bandy, to make the AI go home is not difficult, I assume.

What makes it unfair, is when the player KNOWS, they'll go home after a while, saves lots of rounds,

and follows them, shooting them down.

My "umbrella tactic" would keep him from trying that, cause he would get into a big danger.

That's why I would use it for an AI change.

[ConradB 0]

Thanks for the reply Bullet!

 

Yes lowering weight factors is the best thing to do. Although when flying for the GAS, I don't dare go up without a full ammo load. The last flight was a patrol of the lines along San Quentin, and we encountered a total of 15 E/A, and although I I didn't get any claims, I damaged every plane that went after my wingmen, and kept them alive. 20 to 30 rounds into each of them in the vitals, either wounding the pilot or damaging the engine. Either way, they would turn for the lines and leave the area heading west. By the time I was done, I think i had about 20% of my ammo loadout left.

 

Yeah, I'm just gonna have to get used to the planes in this one. I have them down pretty proficiantly actually from the P2 flying. Any changes don't seem to be that drastic in how the planes handle, but any changes mean we have to change our "habits".

 

Thanks again for the input! I think I'm gonna go play tag with Rene Fonk.

[SirMike1983 3]

To make the AI truly great would require tailoring its flying to the airplane it is using. Since the early days in RB1, AI has been pretty good at turning fights, but pretty poor at more advanced hit-and-run, and pure energy fighting (much as it may try to zoom away sometimes). This is why, I think, the AI can be so deadly in a Fokker Dr.I, Camel, or D.VII (they're all good turn fighters), but gets beaten up in an Alb D.II or a Pfalz D.III or a Spad VII (they try to turn with you and unless you're damaged, you'll get them). I think ideally you would develop a couple of AI "models" in which the AI chooses to use an energy tactic strategy or a turn tactic based on the dynamics of the plane it is flying. And you know you've reached the Holy Grail when it chooses based on BOTH the plane it is flying AND the plane the PLAYER is flying. So far as I'm concerned AI has been plagued with automatically trying to turn fight since the rise of "modern" flight sim in the early 1990s. It would be a real coup to break that trend by actually having several AI attack/defense models based on the aircraft at hand. This feature has been supposedly built into several of the more modern simulations, but you can't prove it by me-- the AI always seems to default into a turn mode eventually in the fight.

Edited December 3, 2009 by SirMike1983

[ConradB 0]

To make the AI truly great would require tailoring its flying to the airplane it is using. Since the early days in RB1, AI has been pretty good at turning fights, but pretty poor at more advanced hit-and-run, and pure energy fighting (much as it may try to zoom away sometimes). This is why, I think, the AI can be so deadly in a Fokker Dr.I, Camel, or D.VII (they're all good turn fighters), but gets beaten up in an Alb D.II or a Pfalz D.III or a Spad VII (they try to turn with you and unless you're damaged, you'll get them). I think ideally you would develop a couple of AI "models" in which the AI chooses to use an energy tactic strategy or a turn tactic based on the dynamics of the plane it is flying. And you know you've reached the Holy Grail when it chooses based on BOTH the plane it is flying AND the plane the PLAYER is flying. So far as I'm concerned AI has been plagued with automatically trying to turn fight since the rise of "modern" flight sim in the early 1990s. It would be a real coup to break that trend by actually having several AI attack/defense models based on the aircraft at hand. This feature has been supposedly built into several of the more modern simulations, but you can't prove it by me-- the AI always seems to default into a turn mode eventually in the fight.

 

 

You should try BoBII. The AI has been tuned to operate the specific planes they fly to use the best tactics, but it also depends on the skill level of the AI pilot, which goes from

 

Novice: They will be easy targets, and will sometimes freeze up when you shoot at them as they panic.

 

Average: Not the best flyer, but has seen some action, and will get you if you aren't careful.

 

Veteran: Can handle the plane with skill, but can sometimes make a mistake.

 

Hero: These guys are downright dangerous to encounter. They can use their mounts to the fullest of their capabilities in the vertical, and the horizontal. Depending on which plane they fly.

 

But Buddye over at A2A Simulations has had some years to tweak the AI, and he's done a pretty bang up job of getting them to use the planes the way they were designed to be used. But it's taken him a good 5 to 6 years to get it where it is today. And he still fiddles with it trying to squeeze even more out of it. Which makes those big furballs over Kent with 200 to 300 aircraft quite an experience.

 

It's the only other simulator I like for air combat. So for me, I have the best of both worlds, with WWI and WWII covered.

[Creaghorn 10]

AI starts this yo yo behaviour at about 200 feet height or maybe apropriate higher when over trees. then he fells into this death spirale where he tries to gain height, evade, attack and all that stuff ant once till he dies. earlier craft more than later ones.

above this height he acts really well. how about tricking the AI FM and lowering his parameter for ground sensing for about 100-150 feet? so his "ground" wouldn't be at 0 as it is now but at maybe -150 feet. then he would be at 100 feet height, but thinks he's still at about 300 feet and keeps acting well. the borderline where he starts to fly stupid should be decreased to just some feet above the ground, not 200 as it is now. so he would still avoid hitting the ground, but still act dangerous though beeing low, because he "thinks" he's at about 200+ feet. dunno how hard it would be to change but it also might be a simple change of figures.

[Bullethead 12]

It would be a real coup to break that trend by actually having several AI attack/defense models based on the aircraft at hand. This feature has been supposedly built into several of the more modern simulations, but you can't prove it by me-- the AI always seems to default into a turn mode eventually in the fight.

 

I dunno what sim you're flying, but to me the OFF AI does exactly this. It does E-fighting and turn-fighting both, and switches between them, flying the same plane in the same fight, depending on the situation. I'm not saying the OFF AI is perfect, but it's way better than any other I've seen before.

 

If you're not seeing this, you have to understand 1 thing. This is that E-fighting is ONLY possible if you have a SIGNIFCANT energy advantage over the enemy. E-fighting relies ENTIRELY on being able to zoom up above the enemy's reach, repositioning inside his turn, and then attacking again before the enemy can catch is breath from his previous maneuver. If this condition isn't met, then the would-be E-fighter has only 1 realistic choice: run away! But if you're faster than the would-be E-fighter even in dive, then he has only no choice: he must turnfight even though it's not his strong suit, and hope you make a mistake.

 

The OFF AI is smart enough to realize this. If it's flying an E-fighter (compared to what you're flying), and it has sufficient E-advantage at the get-go, it does very effective E-fighting. Otherwise, it tries to run away. If it can't, it knows that up front and doesn't bother, instead fighting you as best it can even though it's disadvantaged. But what else can it do?

[SirMike1983 3]

I dunno what sim you're flying, but to me the OFF AI does exactly this. It does E-fighting and turn-fighting both, and switches between them, flying the same plane in the same fight, depending on the situation. I'm not saying the OFF AI is perfect, but it's way better than any other I've seen before.

 

If you're not seeing this, you have to understand 1 thing. This is that E-fighting is ONLY possible if you have a SIGNIFCANT energy advantage over the enemy. E-fighting relies ENTIRELY on being able to zoom up above the enemy's reach, repositioning inside his turn, and then attacking again before the enemy can catch is breath from his previous maneuver. If this condition isn't met, then the would-be E-fighter has only 1 realistic choice: run away! But if you're faster than the would-be E-fighter even in dive, then he has only no choice: he must turnfight even though it's not his strong suit, and hope you make a mistake.

 

The OFF AI is smart enough to realize this. If it's flying an E-fighter (compared to what you're flying), and it has sufficient E-advantage at the get-go, it does very effective E-fighting. Otherwise, it tries to run away. If it can't, it knows that up front and doesn't bother, instead fighting you as best it can even though it's disadvantaged. But what else can it do?

 

Disagree- I think that's a bit generous to the AI. It's certainly better than stock CFS 3, but it stills wants to turn against me, even in the wrong plane.

Edited December 4, 2009 by SirMike1983

[Mr. Lucky 0]

In campaign, the AI is very good. I've been shot down when I couldn't understand why...like Pike's experience. I saw the DH2 behind me starting to get on my six, I immediately banked and turned, saw the tracers, turned tighter and the tracers stuck with me, chewing me up til I crashed. I can assume it was an ace because his shots were very effective.This happened in about 3 seconds. Another time, I made a mistake. I was out of ammo, leaving a fight and heading for home. I saw a plane in the distance behind me and I doubled back to see if it was my wingman. I wasn't concerned if it was enemy as the only ones left were those I'd dispatched and if still flying were in no condition to do me harm. Turns out it was an ace that came in from somewhere else, had already shot down my wingmen and proceeded to chew me up as I tried to dive away from him. Frustrating? yes. Unfair? Yes. Realistic? I must admit, sure seems like it. It's hard not to take risks to ensure the health of your mates, but quite often, you place yourself in death's grip doing so. It's difficult to just cut and run to save your own skin. But sometimes, if you want to live...

[Bullethead 12]

Disagree- I think that's a bit generous to the AI. It's certainly better than stock CFS 3, but it stills wants to turn against me, even in the wrong plane.

 

Well, I guess I can count you in the "AI doesn't cheat" crowd at least .

 

But what's the "wrong plane"? The choice between E-fighting and turnfighting is more dependent on initial E states than on plane match-ups. If you bounce an E-fighter, it will either run away or be forced into a disadvantageous turn-fight. If it can't run away, it has no choice but to turnfight.

 

Consider an AI Albartros D.III and you in a Pup. At least in my experience, most fights start with you getting swooped by Albatri from thousands of feet above you. Initially, they use E-tactics. But as they bleed down, they they either run away or switch to turnfighting if they don't think they can outrun you. At high altitudes, the D.III can out-dive a Pup without ripping its wings off, but not so at low levels. So depending on how far down the Pups have gone before the Albatri lose their E-advantage, they either disengage, regain E, and try again, or they're stuck in a turnfight where they're only chance is for you to make a mistake.

 

Sometimes, I've seen ace Albatros pilots get stuck in the low, slow turnfight, but not often. I don't fault them, however, because combat is a gamble and things can change. The point to disengage is hard to spot. Considering the HUGE number of human woould-be E-fighters I've killed in similar circumstances, I can't fault the AI for not always breaking off soon enough. There has to be some spectrum between novice and ace AI pilots, after all. Greed kills WAY more human pilots than I ever have even in 15 years. If it kills the AI sometimes, that's just more realistic IMHO.

 

Now consider the SPAD XIII vs. the Fokker D.VII. The SPAD, at high speeds, is a pure E-fighter, but at low speeds it's a very good turnfighter by late-1918 standards--only Camels and Dr.Is are better. It can easily out-turn a Fokker D.VII at low speeds, just as it can easily out-zoom and out-run it at high speeds. The D.VII, OTOH, is just the opposite compared to the SPAD. Thus, regardless of who is flying which, and assuming pilots on both sides live long enough, as the fight continues both sides have to switch tactics completely.

 

I don't know about you, but this is exactly what I see happen regardless of which plane I'm flying. Most fights start at high altitude with the SPADs higher and doing E-tactics. But neither side can maintain that altitude while doing ACM, so the fight gets lower and lower, and the planes in it get slower and slower. As this happens, hte SPADs switch from E-fighting to turnfighting and the D.VIIs from turnfighting to E-fighting. Why shouldn't they? They have the advantage turning at that point, and they want to kill you, after all.

 

Now, if you're flying the D.VII, you can chalk this SPAD turnfighting up to the AI being too stupid to disengage sooner. But OTOH, as you see the SPADs outturning you, you might not consider this stupid. You'll be forced into using low-speed vertical moves and the famous D.VII prop-hang just to stay alive, let alone gain an advantage. Now turn the tables and put yourself in the SPAD low and slow against D.VIIs. No matter how non-vertical the AI D.VIIs fly while you have the E-advantage, once you're co-E or slower you'll see them doing this same low-speed yoyo and prop-hanging game down in the weeds. In both cases, no matter who is flying which plane, the AI switches from one set of tactics to another, just as you have to do, regardless of which you're flying.

 

In campaign, the AI is very good. I've been shot down when I couldn't understand why...like Pike's experience. I saw the DH2 behind me starting to get on my six, I immediately banked and turned, saw the tracers, turned tighter and the tracers stuck with me, chewing me up til I crashed.

 

During the time in which the DH2 was in service, the Germans had nothing that could out-turn it. They didn't call the DH2 the "Spinning Incinerator" for nothing. Planes that spin easily always turn very well, after all. Now me, being a complete dweeb in the DH2, usually end up in an unrecoverable spin when I try to turn hard in it. But that's just because I don't know what I'm doing. There are a number of folks here who are quite good in it, and I can assure you that they LOVE it when a German plane tries to turn in front of them because that just let's them cut the corner and hose them at shorter range.

 

Bottom line, a German with a DH2 in range on his butt is in trouble, unless he has the altitude to dive away quickly. If he doesn't, then he should try to run straight away, hedge-hopping if necessary, but NEVER making a seroius turn. All the turn does is give the DH2 a closer shot.

[SirMike1983 3]

The one place I did notice the AI became very difficult is when you have a plane that is entirely outclassed by the AI's plane. Back when the D.VII vs. Spad was a truly lopsided match, it was VERY difficult to shoot down D.VIIs. The same could be said if you're stuck in the Eindecker against a Nieuport or even a DH2.

 

I'm just searching for a more dynamic AI. It behaves a bit predictably and seems to always fall back on turn-turn-turn. An AI that can accurately simulate a human opponent is really the grail of offline flying. I flew regularly online for a number of years in both RB and OFF, and it's really a different world, fighting human opponents. I think P4 has a ton of potential, and I am happy to hear of new AI work to push it ahead. I'm also glad to hear that the project continues- RB3d left us in a lurch and it really became up to the community to keep it going.

Edited December 4, 2009 by SirMike1983

[Hasse Wind 46]

I would like to see more variation in the AI behaviour - currently it feels like almost every enemy fighter I meet is flown by an expert ace who knows his crate like his own pockets and is always able to make the maximum use of the plane's performance. In reality, most pilots of the war were nowhere near that level of expertise. Maybe I've just had bad luck meeting elite squadrons all the time, but it really seems to me there are no unskilled, green pilots flying over the fields of Flanders - except as my wingmen. And I know I'm no great pilot myself, but it would be comforting to my ego to sometimes meet some AI pilots in OFF who are as lost as I am in the air.

 

But I think it's also true that veteran flight sim players usually know a lot more about air combat and its theory than the average pilot back in those days, so of course it wouldn't be fun to meet only mediocre AI pilots and shoot them all down with no effort.

 

Combat is also too bloody in OFF currently, as has been mentioned. The casualty figures should usually be much lower than they are now. The AI should learn to flee. I guess there's nothing you can do to force human players be more careful - nothing is as effective in that as flying full DiD!

 

And I wonder what the limitations of the CFS3 engine are. Is it even possible to make dramatic changes to the AI behaviour? Or would a new engine be needed?

 

But generally speaking, I'm quite satisfied with the level of AI in OFF as it is now. But if it can be improved, please do so and you'll have my money!