Good night everyone - everywhere on earth - Way way way off topic

[Olham 164]

Reading your lines, OvS, and hearing about Brown in general, makes me REALLY wonder:

- who installs such people ?

- why are people installed and remain in charge for a period of time, who rather do damage to their job/company/ country ?

- are those leading positions already SO FAR away from what the company is all about ?

 

Our German railway "Die Bahn" appears more and more like a company, who's only major problem is: their customers!

The service gets worse every year.

Should we just transfer our money to them, with a thank-you-note attached, and stay at home?

Would that be to their convenience?

Does any of those big heads run the business for the reasons it was made for anymore?

Edited March 29, 2010 by Olham

[OvS 8]

Reading your lines, OvS, and hearing about Brown in general, makes me REALLY wonder:

- who installs such people ?

- why are people installed and remain in charge for a period of time, who rather do damage to their job/company/ country ?

- are those leading positions already SO FAR away from what the company is all about ?

 

Our German railway "Die Bahn" appears more and more like a company, who's only major problem is: their customers!

The service gets worse every year.

Should we just transfer our money to them, with a thank-you-note attached, and stay at home?

Would that be to their convenience?

Does any of those big heads run the business for the reasons it was made for anymore?

 

We don't know Olham... it's the core of what your question is all about.

 

We're only told what we're meant to hear. Next thing you know, the business is folding because it can't survive, and years later, you're watching a documentary on the History channel about how Big Businesses are toppled by poor management.

 

I hope that's not the case for BA, but by the looks of it... it might very well be.

 

As for PM Brown, he's not well liked by the Labor Party as of now. Unite forked up a lot of money to help fund his election campaign.

 

OvS

[rabu 9]

Reading your lines, OvS, and hearing about Brown in general, makes me REALLY wonder:

- who installs such people ?

- why are people installed and remain in charge for a period of time, who rather do damage to their job/company/ country ?

- are those leading positions already SO FAR away from what the company is all about ?

 

Our German railway "Die Bahn" appears more and more like a company, who's only major problem is: their customers!

The service gets worse every year.

Should we just transfer our money to them, with a thank-you-note attached, and stay at home?

Would that be to their convenience?

Does any of those big heads run the business for the reasons it was made for anymore?

 

It all revolves around the stock market, the worst thing that has happened to every country that got caught up in it.. Artificial production based on speculation. And when the specualtion doesn't seem to be making enough for the stock holders, who don't do a lick of work, they start finding ways to cut costs.. labor, quality of materials, etc. They lobby goverments for trade and tax benefits, that all the rest of us working stiffs end up paying for as well. It just goes on and on till the bubble bursts, then they take advantage of that and make even more money.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Well, with any amount of luck, the UK will come to it's senses, and vote Brown and his Junta out in the May Elections.

(although, there is no-one in opposition I trust to get the country sorted...so in the words of Widowmaker.... we're f*cked!

[Olham 164]

Reading about the costs of gouvernements, plus the costs of their often wrong decisions,

I wished there'd be a choice in the ballot paper after listing all party candidates, saying:

 

NONE OF THESE - CAN'T AFFORD THEM !

[zoomzoom 2]

Simple solution.....cut funding to the government.....you know....cause WE fund THEM. Then watch them try to tighten THIER belts like they just assume all of us will do when they DEMAND more money from our all too small paychecks. Of course its not that easy, they rather tend to frown on us not "forking it out" if you know what I mean. But its a simple reality check thats needed, and gone "unchecked" for far too long. Through irresponsibility however....you can milk that cash cow till its dead....then everyone crashes and burns.....or, you can do the right, yet often unpleasant thing, and be responsible, and then in the long run, everyone benefits. (Yeah...but thaaaaaaats haaaaaaaaaaard......done in my best whiny childish voice)

Well, if you have a clear focus of the alternatives.....no....not really.

 

ZZ.

 

 

PS. I have a feeling (and some personal experience in witnessing such) that if the average American was made aware of the staggering amount of wastefull and irresponsible spending by the govt, they would demand a considerable tax refund. And secondly, who is there doing that accounting to make them responsible?. From what I can tell...no-one....at least not in a way that brings it home to the average taxpayer.

Edited March 29, 2010 by zoomzoom

[OvS 8]

... Artificial production based on speculation ...

 

Hmmm.... what was the name of that Pet supply company that had the commercials with the puppet made of a sock? They had no value, no stock, very little inventory... yet the stock was jumping $100's by the week.

 

Then they collapsed... with the rest of them. That describes about 90% of the NASDAQ stocks, doesn't it.

 

OvS

[Flyby PC 23]

Simple solution.....cut funding to the government.....you know....cause WE fund THEM.

 

UK tried that, with the Fair Play on Fuel protests back in 2000, but caved in on the brink of victory when they felt they'd made their point. Govt proceeded to make 'contingencies', such as storing more fuel, (oh, and confiscating driving liscences from protestors), to ensure they wouldn't be caught on the hop again.

 

Fuel was then around 80p / litre. Fuel is now 118p / litre, and going up again.

[Fortiesboy 3]

The growing number of families in the USA are having a hard time making it, I'm sure it's the same in the UK. They may have a car or two, but usually both parents are forced to work, they are loosing their houses because of being laid off or because of health issues and they can't afford to send their kids to college, not to mention all the other problems going on. Play things, cars, TV's, etc., have gotten cheaper over the years while necessities like food and shelter health and education have sky rocketed. Meanwhile, those at the top just get richer, at the expense of the rest of the population and those in the other poor countries that they have exploited for their own greed.

 

So, yea, even poor families in the UK may be the envy of someone living in a poor country, but that doesn't mean they are greedy, IMHO. I also hope that though education we can make changes though, cut out a lot of the waste you mention, and help other countries develop and improve their conditions. I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about it though, I think those with power have too much to do much about them.. hope I'm wrong.

 

Yes- a lot of truth here, particularly the bit about essentials getting more expensive and "luxuries" cheaper. You find me a newly married couple where the husband's wage only will buy a house via a mortgage( And for Gawd's sake don't anyone get sexist with me re using the term husband!!)

It will not happen now - but it did in my father's time.

 

And as for the BA strike - it isn't greed to protect your terms and conditions when the management want to weaken them.

 

What really annoys me though, about any strike, is the way the media only report on it when a strike is looming, never even saying that negotiations had been attempted for weeks or months before getting to the possibility of a strike.

But, worse still, the media never report on the details of the dispute. E.g. BA strike.

Does anyone know what Willie Walsh wants to do with the T&C of the employees- what their terms are and what he now wants them to be? Does anyone know what the unions have offered in response? Or why Willie walsh says the response is unacceptable? etc etc ?

 

No- All we get from the media is Walsh saying the unions don't care about the campany and want to cripple it! ( sure, the employees want to destroy their jobs, do they ?? ) and the union saying that Walsh won't negotiate meaningfully. But most of all they report on how many of the public are disrupted!

 

Hurrah for the media!! - My A-se.!

 

But personally, on this issue, I'm laughing.! Some few years ago I decided never again to risk flying on commercial flights. I don't happen to think that that is as illogical a wariness to have, as many think it is. Just one of my foibles!

 

 

cheers

[trebby 0]

Zeitgeist-the movie.

 

Well might as well throw my favorite in as far as discussing the world situation goes.

 

A collegue of mine thought he was funny when he attended me to it with the words: "dont die stupid".

 

Its far worse on an macro level than we think, even if 50% would be true. Check this out if u have some time (2:00) on your hand. Either youll be fascinated after 15 min or just clic it away...

 

English: (start with right "the movie" in blue) http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

 

German subs : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8472935505159439178#

 

Be advised: strongly religious people might be offended due to atheist points of view.

 

Trebb.

[trebby 0]

The BA strike and the Lufthansa strike, both symptoms of the common man/woman versus the greedy suits?

 

I strongly support both strikes.

Not so much because I am an socialist. Rather the contrary. But I do think its the only way to retard the powers that are, maybe even stop the way were all moving to. (See above links)

Its too much for my taste. I think the balance of power is leaning way too much in the corporate side.

 

As one of the journalists in germany got told: we are not striking against Lufthansa, we are striking against the Lufthansa MANAGEMENT

because WE are Lufthansa....

 

The conflict is really about shifting proper jobs/production to low income/cost countries and breaking the union.

 

This conflict will spread as not only flying personnel but also ground personnel is affected just as much and are just starting to realize it.

Watch my words.

 

Trebb.

 

 

NB. the best zeigeist link with subs for most languages: start movie on: "subtitles here". on the right blue screen:

 

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

 

I promise to stop whining about seeing this movie now, and NO I am not an member.

Edited March 29, 2010 by trebby

[catch 81]

It all revolves around the stock market, the worst thing that has happened to every country that got caught up in it.. Artificial production based on speculation. And when the specualtion doesn't seem to be making enough for the stock holders, who don't do a lick of work, they start finding ways to cut costs.. labor, quality of materials, etc. They lobby goverments for trade and tax benefits, that all the rest of us working stiffs end up paying for as well. It just goes on and on till the bubble bursts, then they take advantage of that and make even more money.

 

Very true Rabu. It's sickeningly obscene. It is government sanctioned gambling without regulation and all western govt's jumped on the bandwagon floating public assets for short term gain. Gee that worked well didn't it. Let's increase profits by reducing services and not spending one cent on infrastructure and maintenance. Just look at Qantas today. It's lucky no-one has been killed yet but they've had some very close calls. No longer can Qantas be called the safest airline in the world.

 

I reckon it all started going pear-shaped around 1987 when the movie Wall Street came out with the tagline "greed is good" and how the public seemed to jump on that as a good thing Like it's fine to screw everybody, have no moral fortitude, worship the dollar and trample over anyone that gets in the way. I was appalled at that attitude and that to me was the beginning of a general slide downwards in common courtesy, respect and a sense of community.

 

This has turned out to be an interesting topic. Sometimes it's good to vent. Thanks Olham !

[Guest British_eh]

Hmmmm...it would appear that GREED is certainly at the root of the evils that are vanquishing the human race. Didn't this mess start with those greedy folks in the real estate/ banking/ loans arena?

 

I was looking at purchasing a small condo in Italy when I retire. The South, in around Piso, just above the "boot", looked great, with warm climate, beautiful scenery, etc. I did allot of research, but curiously I only just saw a list of the 50 best cities to live in Itlay. It lists only 1 city/town, South of Rome. Why? The Mafia!. They bleed their country dry, affecting lifestyle, cost of living, standard of living, education, medical, employment, etc. So, the retirement is off, at least purchasing in the South.

 

If you want to look at the situation in an even broader light, not just Right wing or Left wing, Liberal or Conservative, it would seem to the Christians that this is all written down, the world economic issue, and resolution, at a cost to be sure. Highlighted by greed? Or is there another sinister evil of a religious threat out there, which could be considered bad for the world?

 

I am lucky, living in Canada, which has reasonable governments, Health care, not too high a tax rate, and people who mostly are conservative, but friendly and decent. I get to watch hockey, have a great job, a nice house, wife and kids, ............. I had better stop, as there are to many that have too little. I do try to help out in my own way, and perhaps that too is what we are missing. Perhaps it's now its' "all about me" syndrome is far to prevalent?

 

Olham, I do not watch the news, mostly depressing. It's bad enough when Liverpool lose's.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

 

 

 

 

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

 

 

Olham, I do not watch the news, mostly depressing. It's bad enough when Liverpool lose's.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

 

On the contrary...that is always news worthy of celebration!!

[themightysrc 5]

"but no...they continued to spend, spend, spend...and use our Tax Money, to bail out the fat cat Bankers!"

 

Well, to be fair, it should be asked what the alternative was. I must confess, the idea of going to a hole in the wall and it not working (and it would have been that scenario) doesn't fill me with pleasure, nor would the prospect of the same seizure in the commercial world leading to supermarket with rapidly emptying shelves.

 

Basically, once any form of government is predicated upon a banking system (and, in the case of most of the planet, on a share trading system), then you simply cannot afford to let it go bust, otherwise you will end up with anarchy and the destruction of whole societies. This, though, means that banking and the trading system needs to be well regulated and basically watched like a hawk to ensure that the people within that system looking to 'maximise shareholder value' - ie, milk it without necessarily producing anything of worth - are not allowed to operate in a manner that ultimately harms society.

 

There's an interesting discussion to be had at all levels as to how this can be achieved. You could also extend the conversation to ask whether the existing financial model is, in fact, the correct prescription for the 21st Century, although I suspect that that conversation won't be had any time soon at a governmental and high commercial/financial level.

 

It's ironic that the late 20th Century saw what was described as the triumph of the free capitalist model, as the alternative systems mostly failed, for whatever reasons (they were many and varied). Once such a system was 'proven' to be correct, then it seems to me that any variation which encouraged its extremes became acceptable, and even desirable.

 

We now live in a world where people are beginning to realise that perhaps, just perhaps, such a model is not sustainable and has the capacity to wreck the lives of untold millions as thoroughly as a global war.

 

On a largely unrelated matter, I'd like to say that I'm beginning to luurve the SE5a/Viper: what a stonking machine.

[zoomzoom 2]

On a largely unrelated matter, I'd like to say that I'm beginning to luurve the SE5a/Viper: what a stonking machine.

 

 

Well put.

 

ZZ.

[rabu 9]

Now it's starting to get ugly.. Uncleal, you've already demostrated your biased outlook from your earlier posts stating that you only read what you want and then linking to extremely biased, negative websites.

Let's keep things clean here, OK?

[zoomzoom 2]

Now it's starting to get ugly.

No no. Dont take it too seriously rabu. You have to understand, uncleal is an edgey character.....and we love him for it.

 

Back to some socio-political logic though. This is an interesting example with a great deal of historicity of people affecting if you will, the existing governmental form, and a very early one at that that I'll wager most children will look at you dumbfounded if you try to reference it.

 

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-runnymede/w-runnymede-history/w-runnymede-history-magnacarta.htm

 

Now granted, these weren't the peasant-(average standard) class if you will affecting the change. They were Barons after all, with vested interests. Nonetheless, it is a great example of a people taking back, or demanding back some say from a form of govt. that didn't necessarily have to listen.

 

ZZ.

 

 

[Olham 164]

UncleAl, I knew already which side of the fence you sit.

The problem is not so much, that there are "Liberals", "Conservatives" or "Demokrats" -

the major problem is: there are so many liars in each of these parties.

(I don't regard you as one - you speak from your heart, maybe sometimes more than would be appropriate).

And another major problem is the fence.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Olham

[Fortiesboy 3]

This is the one I originally searching for when I stumbled across the FENCE, which was good also. Nothing wrong with a Joke when it's Well Done. My apologies to those who are not american citizens, as they may fail to see the Humor

 

I know politics are not allowed here . . BUT

 

 

.......I intend to give you my version of what the great USA should be like - i.e bugger you Jack, I'm all right!

 

Thank you Uncleal

 

George Bernard Shaw was wrong actually- We are not separated by a common language, we are separated by a sense of compassion.

The greatest attribute of the UK being a civilised society is the National Health Service. Where, if you are ill and are poor and cannot afford to pay a doctor, you do not have to suffer and die unaided, but you will be entitled to the necessary medical treatment, having made National insurance contributions.

Thus many older working people, paid too little to buy private ( the only sort the conservative USA seems to want ) medical insurance, began to experience medical care, after working all their life, when not fighting two world wars.

In the USA they would have been left on their own, as, those who have enough wealth to buy medical aid, would now want to continue that "wonderful conservative resilience" !!

 

Bah!

[Duce Lewis 3]

Why don't we all enjoy the fact that we live in free societies where we can express our opinions without fear of retribution?

So many in this world don't have this simple right

 

We've all seen governments beset by partisanship and constant bickering

Yet how can we cast judgement on them if we can't maintain a civil discourse ourselves?

Not that we shouldn't discuss pertinant issues

Active voter participation is at the heart of a successful democracy

 

The key is to debate rather than argue

Debate requires thoughtful participation and respect for your opponet

That they have as much right to their opinion as you do yours

A skilled debater politely answers his opponents questions without filibustering, accusations, or smears

He also can propose differing points with the expectation that they'll receive a similar response

The listeners (and the debaters) are thus afforded the clearest picture of both points of view

Only then can reasonable compromises be worked out

 

Arguing, on the other hand, is only an attempt to squash your opponents viewpoint

It invariably only inflames the participants and hardens their points of view

Rarely is anything gained by it

 

Take a break

Share a brew

[themightysrc 5]

"I'm curious . . do you find Drudge as an extremely biased, negative website. When all that's said is the Truth, from many different sources, prior to censorship. So stating the truth is being baised, and negative . . to your way of thinking"

 

Please bear in mind, Al, that Drudge is but one internet site based in the USA and catering towards a particular audience. That is both its strength and weakness.

 

"I particularly like the one about the "Hard Working' senior citizen, in the USA who's told by a Doctor, that pain in your side is Liver Cancer. In two months time, that Cancer will spread throughout your system. Your only hope is surgery tomorrow, if you can afford it of course"

 

That is the problem with the current American system in a nutshell. I hope it will change to enable Americans without immediate access to such surgery to be able to enjoy the undoubted benefits of the relevant procedure.

 

"The Brits have a great free healthcare system, of course our friend with the pain in his side, might have to wait four months to see the doctor ( but it's all free )"

 

That is, AFAIK, one of the issues that the NHS is trying to bear down on. I'm also aware that cancer survival rates are interpreted and gathered differently in the USA and the UK, and therefore, untill such time as comparable statistics are available for both countries, then we would do well to avoid direct comparisons if comparable data isn't available.

 

I am not here - posting - to inflame the feelings of any person. I am simply trying to add a POV that might otherwise be missed because of reference to sources of data that might well have an agenda attached. I know and trust that people posting here are decent, humane and reasonable. May this thread reflect that.

[Duce Lewis 3]

I am not here - posting - to inflame the feelings of any person. I am simply trying to add a POV that might otherwise be missed because of reference to sources of data that might well have an agenda attached. I know and trust that people posting here are decent, humane and reasonable. May this thread reflect that.

No inflammation there src!

If only we all could articulate our points so eloquently ...me included

[Fortiesboy 3]

 

PS . . Not to destroy your childhood dreams, but the Chap who worked hard all his life, when fighting two world wars. Just turned 103 last week. Ain't too many like him

 

Actually, I was thinking particularly about the generation which brought in the national health service, which was born in 1948, but, it's not too important, - you just keep on letting your sarcasm show us just how clever you are.

[rabu 9]

Have 'No' knowledge of the 'History' of the British 'Healthcare' System, I should think very few do, other than youself of course

 

Ahh.. sorry, Ucleal, now I understand. I just realized who you are.. you're Joe the Plumber's brother, right?