Nine Years Ago Today

[Olham 164]

Islam itself is not an aggressive religion, but there are always people, who misuse religion for their purposes. Everywhere.

The priest, who wanted to burn a Koran, is a good example.

[Ras 0]

Though I dont agree with everything BH says, I agree with some of it and won't define that as of now. How come Americans, or Brits or the French or whoever,don't stand up and scream to bloody hell when then flag of your country is burned? When the bible is burned?. When an effigy of a world leader is burned.? Is it because we are so very afraid of upsetting them even more? Is it because we are so damn politically correct that we are willing to allow the people as individuals or groups that good common sense a decade or two ago would have called us insane?!!!

[Olham 164]

I think it is, because we people of the occident are overall much better informed;

because we don't take such stupid things like burning flags or bibles as serious insults, but regard them as what they are: helpless stupid acts;

and because we have a generally better democratic, and a little wealthier system to live in.

 

I understand you both better than you may think, Bullet and Ras.

But when religion leaders go political, it's politics - not religion.

And when a priest or a mullah ask people to burn the religious books or items, or the flags of other people,

then that is pure hatred. And both religions - the Christian as well as the Islam - say you shall not act out of hate.

 

But - perhaps - as we shouldn't talk about either politcs, nor religion here, maybe we better stop here.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Olham

[themightysrc 5]

"we don't take such stupid things like burning flags or bibles as serious insults, but regard them as what they are: helpless stupid acts"

 

It takes a man whose first language isn't English to spell out in plain English what is obvious and clear.

 

Bravo, Herr Mahlo. You see further than most.

 

If you consider the burning of a holy book or your country's flag to be an attack on you personally, then it is well due time to consider your priorities in life.

[gordohk 1]

I remember 9/11. Listening to the radio in the taxi report several unconfirmed explosions at DOJ and the State Dept as well as the planes into Pentagon and WTC. The cab ride was about 90 minutes cost $150, and all the while I was trying to figure out how many college buddies worked in the WTC. I lost one good friend that.

[Ras 0]

"we don't take such stupid things like burning flags or bibles as serious insults, but regard them as what they are: helpless stupid acts"

 

It takes a man whose first language isn't English to spell out in plain English what is obvious and clear.

 

Bravo, Herr Mahlo. You see further than most.

 

If you consider the burning of a holy book or your country's flag to be an attack on you personally, then it is well due time to consider your priorities in life.

 

 

I have my priorities in order, thank you. It is God, family and country. I will say no more but I needed to say that.

[Bullethead 12]

You cannot justify demonising an entire race/culture If you do, you are no better than Adolf Hitler..or the Bombers of 9/11

I beg to differ. We demolished the culture of Nazism, and what sane and decent human being misses them in the least bit? Do we not celebrate our achievement there every year, to the point where historical wargames can't even have swastikas on Nazi units? I'm an easy-going guy, really. I'm courteous to all until they step on my toes, then I retaliate but only in kind. I don't escalate, because the inevitable conclusion of escalation is blood. I'm all about deterrence, but I if it's war you want, then you've got it. I follow the Golden Rule; I do unto others as I would have them do unto me, and also its flip-side. I do unto others as they do unto me. Islam doens't play by my gentlemanly rules. Islam says that its followers must either kill or convert (but still enslave) everybody else in the world. Period. And they're not much for the conversion thing, at least as regards today's population groups. Islam denies the legitimacy of ALL other religions, creeds, cultures, etc., etc., etc. other than its own, and uses that as justification for genocide. It's a totally barbaric. As I said before, the only Muslims fit to co-exist in civilization are the apostates who are willing to live and let live with us "infidels". But they are the distinct minority over the whole Muslim world, and are ruthlessly persecuted by their own co-religionists. So, Islam having declared a fight to the death on me and mine, with no negotiation, I have no problem at all with exterminating every one of its followers. That's what they want to do to the rest of the world, and I do unto others as they do to me. They started it, not me, but I'll damn sure finish it. If you can't deal with this, then prepare yourself for life as a eunich in some sheik's harem. It's attitudes like that which let Hitler get going. Edited September 14, 2010 by Bullethead

[SirMike1983 3]

The comments below aren't aimed at anyone in particular, just my view of the situation.

 

I am of the view that Muslims, like other people, are a mixed group. You have sensible, decent people among them and you also get radicals too. That's true of all religions. I do agree there is a certain "violence" in the history and culture of Islam-- that the concept of Jihad in the history of the religion is a violent history. I do think it's whitewashing history to contend otherwise-- to claim that "jihad" as a violent act never happened. But on the other hand, that doesn't mean all Muslims are radicals or jihadists (the same as not every Christian is an abortion clinic bomber). There are Muslims who contribute to the United States in a positive way, but there are also Muslims to bring terror in the name of Al Qaeda and their own radicalism. I don't agree with demonizing Muslims or Islam, but at the same time I sense there is a certain tendency among certain groups or views to try to whitewash the situation too.

 

For example, there are people claiming that the Ground Zero Mosque/Islamic Center is purely just "religious freedom". That, to me, is whitewashing the issue. We have to recognize that many good people died in 9/11 and the ensuing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. More may yet be wounded or killed. I think some of the proponents play this down too much and ignore the hurt that the building may bring. These are also many of the same people who impose the yoke of "political correctness" on others. Under that mentality we live in constant fear we might offense somone somwhere. On the other hand we have opponents who have gone too far-- made death threats or encourage violence and vandalism, while we also have opponents who have been peaceful and made their case in a fair way.

 

What may prove most dangerous is if we indeed begin to treat all Muslims as enemies. Al Qaeda wants this war to become a clash of Muslim vs. non-muslim ("Muslim vs infidel"). In that way we would cultivate an enemy population in our own country. I think we should deny them that propaganda coup. I think we should recognize some Muslims make a positive contribution and therefore marginalize Al Qaeda further. But in so doing we should not do so in a way disrespectful to those who have given their lives against Al Qaeda either.

 

As for the book burning plan in Florida-- I am concerned by any "book burning ceremony". We fought an entire World War against book burning thugs. I do think the pastor has the right to protest and voice his dislike of Islam, as it's his view. But the actual act of book burning rubs me wrong. If the radical element of the Muslim faith are our enemies, in the form of Al Qaeda, then let us learn about the Koran and use it against them rather than just burning it.

Edited September 14, 2010 by SirMike1983

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

The comments below aren't aimed at anyone in particular, just my view of the situation.

 

I am of the view that Muslims, like other people, are a mixed group. You have sensible, decent people among them and you also get radicals too. That's true of all religions. I do agree there is a certain "violence" in the history and culture of Islam-- that the concept of Jihad in the history of the religion is a violent history. I do think it's whitewashing history to contend otherwise-- to claim that "jihad" as a violent act never happened. But on the other hand, that doesn't mean all Muslims are radicals or jihadists (the same as not every Christian is an abortion clinic bomber). There are Muslims who contribute to the United States in a positive way, but there are also Muslims to bring terror in the name of Al Qaeda and their own radicalism. I don't agree with demonizing Muslims or Islam, but at the same time I sense there is a certain tendency among certain groups or views to try to whitewash the situation too.

 

For example, there are people claiming that the Ground Zero Mosque/Islamic Center is purely just "religious freedom". That, to me, is whitewashing the issue. We have to recognize that many good people died in 9/11 and the ensuing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. More may yet be wounded or killed. I think some of the proponents play this down too much and ignore the hurt that the building may bring. These are also many of the same people who impose the yoke of "political correctness" on others. Under that mentality we live in constant fear we might offense somone somwhere. On the other hand we have opponents who have gone too far-- made death threats or encourage violence and vandalism, while we also have opponents who have been peaceful and made their case in a fair way.

 

What may prove most dangerous is if we indeed begin to treat all Muslims as enemies. Al Qaeda wants this war to become a clash of Muslim vs. non-muslim ("Muslim vs infidel"). In that way we would cultivate an enemy population in our own country. I think we should deny them that propaganda coup. I think we should recognize some Muslims make a positive contribution and therefore marginalize Al Qaeda further. But in so doing we should not do so in a way disrespectful to those who have given their lives against Al Qaeda either.

 

As for the book burning plan in Florida-- I am concerned by any "book burning ceremony". We fought an entire World War against book burning thugs. I do think the pastor has the right to protest and voice his dislike of Islam, as it's his view. But the actual act of book burning rubs me wrong. If the radical element of the Muslim faith are our enemies, in the form of Al Qaeda, then let us learn about the Koran and use it against them rather than just burning it.

 

I don't think I could add a full stop or Comma, that would improve anything in this statement!!!

 

Thank you

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

I also agree with almost everything SirMike just said.

 

I just finished reading a book about Al Qaeda and the 9/11 plot called, "The Looming Tower." This book was written by a man who interviewed hundreds of individuals, both Muslim and non-muslim, including several past and present Al Qaeda members. He traces the history of the extremist movement, from the establishment of the Muslim Brotherhood and the writings of Mohammad Qutb, the so-called intellectual inspiration for Islamic extremism, to Osama Bin laden.

 

Al Qaeda and other Islamic extremism groups are almost exclusively headed by Arabs, many of them Egyptian and Saudi Arabian. Originally, they were founded as an attempt to overthrow the "corrupt" governments of Egypt and other middle-eastern countries (the near enemy). They later became focused on America and Europe (the far enemy) partially because of the free and open societies we enjoy here that make organizing and carrying out acts of terror easier here (at least before 9/11) than in their own countires. Ironically, many of the top leadership of Al Qaeda have never even visited the United States or spent only a very little amount of time here. Most have a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of western societies, believing that our concepts of freedom and free-speech are just convenient phrases that are not truly adhered to by the vast majority of citizens. Osama bin Laden even believes that one consequence of the war on terror will be the ultimate breaking up of the united states into the individual 50 states, much like the dissolution of the former Soviet Union!

 

These extremists also believe that Islam is incompatible with all forms of democracy, as democracy puts the law of men over the law of God. In turn, this justifies them in killing not only non-Muslims, but also Muslims who vote or otherwise take part in the democratic process! In my opinion, a majority of Muslims strongly disagree with the views of bin Laden and his fellow extremists. Howevver, many are afraid to speak up, especially in their home countries, because of fear of being labeled an apostate and getting killed as a result. I think that is why we in the west seem to see so little support for our side in Arab countries and are instead much more likely to see the screaming crowds burning effigies and the American flag. Unfortunately, extremism always tends to drown out the voices of those who are more moderate. That was true in Nazi Germany, as it is now in many middle-eastern countries.

 

 

[Hasse Wind 46]

Sounds like an interesting book, HPW. I'll have to read it some day (though I already own literally stacks of books I haven't read yet!)

 

Extremism, no matter where it comes from, left or right, religious or political, is always the problem. And like I mentioned in my first post, it seems to be in our genes to act stupidly and aggressively. Religion and politics are two things that quite easily reveal the worst in the best of people, no matter how civilized they are otherwise. But the beast within us all is always lurking there, just beneath the thin layer of civilization, waiting for the right moment to unleash its animalistic rage. And when it is unleashed, terrible things will always happen.

[Flyby PC 23]

"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Winston Churchill (-not George Orwell).

 

Irrespective of religion or politics, it does us no harm to have our enemies reminded of that from time to time.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

I hope you all are remembering there is a difference between extremism and terrorism, as the lines are getting a bit blurred in this discussion. You can be an extremist without being a terrorist. You can have extreme views, (be they religious, political, societal, or whatever), and never commit a violent act against another in the course of your beliefs. Terrorism on the other hand relies on violence and killing as a justified extreme means to an end. There are thousands of extremist groups worldwide, but only a few dozen recognized terrorist groups that have been active in the last decade around the globe. If you are interested, here is a relatively up-to-date list of them by country.

 

AFGHANISTAN

1. al Qaeda

 

ALGERIA

2. Armed Islamic Group (GIA)

3. The Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

 

CAMBODIA

4. Khmer Rouge/The Party of Democratic Kampuchea

 

CHILE

5. Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (FPMR)

 

COLOMBIA

6. National Liberation Army (ELN)—Colombia

7. Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)

8. United Self-Defense Forces/Group of Colombia (AUC-Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia)

 

EGYPT

9. Al-Jihad a.k.a. Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Jihad Group, Islamic Jihad

10. Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG)

 

GEORGIA

11. Zviadists

 

GREECE

12. Revolutionary Nuclei (RN) a.k.a. Revolutionary Cells

13. Revolutionary Organization 17 November (17 November)

14. Revolutionary People's Struggle (ELA)

 

HONDURAS

15. Morzanist Patriotic Front (FPM)

 

INDIA

16. Al-Ummah

 

IRAQ

17. Abu Nidal organization (ANO) a.k.a. Fatah Revolutionary Council, Arab Revolutionary Brigades, Black September, and Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims

18. Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK or MKO) a.k.a. The National Liberation Army of Iran (NLA, the militant wing of the MEK), the People's Mujahidin of Iran (PMOI), National Council of Resistance (NCR), Muslim Iranian Student's Society (front organization used to garner financial support)

19. Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)

 

ISRAEL

20. Kach and Kahane Chai

 

JAPAN

21. Aum Supreme Truth (Aum) a.k.a. Aum Shinrikyo, Aleph

22. Chukaku-Ha (Nucleus or Middle Core Faction)

23. Japanese Red Army (JRA) a.k.a. Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB)

 

LEBANON

24. ‘Asbat al-Ansar (The Partisans’ League)

25. Hezbollah (Party of God) a.k.a. Islamic Jihad, Revolutionary Justice Organization, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, and Islamic Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine

 

NORTHERN IRELAND

26. Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) a.k.a. Continuity Army Council

27. Irish Republican Army (IRA) a.k.a. Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA), the Provos

28. Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)

29. Orange Volunteers (OV)

30. Real IRA (RIRA) a.k.a. True IRA

31. Red Hand Defenders (RHD)

 

OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

32. Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade

33. Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP)

34. HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)

35. The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)

 

PAKISTAN

36. Harakat ul-Ansar (HUA)

37. Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)

38. Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) (Army of Mohammed)

39. Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) (Army of the Righteous)

 

PERU

40. Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path)

41. Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA)

 

PHILLIPPINES

42. Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)

43. Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)

44. New People's Army (NPA)

 

RWANDA

45. Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR), a.k.a. Interahamwe, Former Armed Forces (ex-FAR)

 

SIERRA LEONE

46. Revolutionary United Front (RUF)

 

SOUTH AFRICA

47. Qibla and People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)

 

SPAIN

48. Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA), a.k.a. Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna

49. First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO), Grupo de Resistencia Anti-Fascista Premero de Octubre

 

SRI LANKA

50. Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) Other known front organizations: World Tamil Association (WTA), World Tamil Movement (WTM), the Federation of Associations of Canadian Tamils (FACT), the Ellalan Force, the Sangilian Force

 

SYRIA

51. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)

52. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)

 

TURKEY

53. Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)

54. Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) a.k.a. Devrimci Sol (Revolutionary Left), Dev Sol

 

UNITED STATES

55. Jamaat ul-Fuqra

 

UZBEKISTAN

56. Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)

 

 

 

 

Give fearful people a holy cause to fight for and a means to wage war and...well, you know the rest.

 

.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

You missed out a couple Lou

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

 

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[Olham 164]

Gawd - the guys are really unmasking world politics in three minutes - wonderful! And frightening...