Vicefelwebel ranking above Feldwebel?

[Hermann the Hun 1]

Hy Guys,

 

can anybody tell me, why the Vicefeldwebel (or Vizefeldwebel) is ranking above the Feldwebel in OFF3?

 

As I know a German Vicefeldwebel in WWI is a supernumerary Feldwebel. So when a Unteroffizier should be promoted to Feldwebel, and this rank was allready awarded, he became a supernumerary Feldwebel, a so called Vizefeldwebel. Both ranks could be promoted to Offiziersstellvertreter, but the Feldwebel was ranking above the Vicefeldwebel.

 

So, am I wrong, or why did the dev-team program the Vicefeldwebel above the Feldwebel?

 

Andi

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Welcome to the OFF forums Hermann, and to the virtual BHaH skies. This topic has been discussed before and if I recall it is something that may be addressed in P4, (devs will chime in on this I imagine). I believe the correct rank order in the German Air Service during WWI went as follows:

 

Flieger

 

Gefreiter

 

Unteroffizier

 

Vizefeldwebel

 

Feldwebel

 

Offizierstellvertreter, (or Fähnrich: not sure which one is the earlier term used, but I believe it was the former).

 

Leutnant

 

Oberleutnant

 

Hauptmann

 

Ranks above Hauptmann did not tend to serve in the combat units and were back at HQ, if I remember correctly. Olham and other native Germans can likely shed more light on this subject for you Andi.

 

BTW, new guys buy the drinks!

 

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

.

[Olham 164]

There is a Wikipedia page which seems quite detailed about this question - unfortunately it is only available in German.

Here is the link:

 

http://de.wikipedia...._Kaiserreich%29

 

And yes - the Vizefeldwebel was ranking below the Feldwebel (as you can see there).

 

I can only attempt to translate the ranks - one is never quite sure about English or American ranking details.

 

Portepee = lanyard

 

Unteroffizier - corporal

Sergeant - sergeant

Fähnrich - ensign

 

Vizefeldwebel - (?)

Feldwebel - staff sergeant

Offizierstellvertreter - first sergeant / master sergeant ?

 

Feldwebelleutnant - second lieutenant

Leutnant - first lieutenant

Oberleutnant - senior lieutenant

Hauptmann / Rittmeister - captain

 

Major - major

Oberstleutnant - lieutenant colonel

Oberst - colonel

Edited December 20, 2010 by Olham

[+Gepard 11,298]

 

I can only attempt to translate the ranks - one is never quite sure about English or American ranking details.

 

Portepee = lanyard

 

Unteroffizier - corporal

Sergeant - sergeant

Fähnrich - ensign

 

Vizefeldwebel - (?)

Feldwebel - staff sergeant

Offizierstellvertreter - first sergeant / master sergeant ?

 

Feldwebelleutnant - second lieutenant

Leutnant - lieutenant

Oberleutnant - first lieutenant

Hauptmann / Rittmeister - captain

 

Major - major

Oberstleutnant - lieutenant colonel

Oberst - colonel

 

Ehm. Its a little bit different:

 

There were two groups of pilots

the first were pilots in sergent ranks,

the second pilots in officer ranks

 

Here the sergeant ranks:

Unteroffizier - Sergeant

Sergeant - the same like Sergeant

Vizefeldwebel - Staff sergeant

Feldwebel - Master Sergeant

Offiziersstellvertreter - Chief Master Sergeant

 

The problem with translation of ranks is, that different armies have different steps of ranks with sergeants.

 

Fähnrich - ensign = (officer pupil or aspirant)

 

Same problem with officer ranks. While US and british armies (and today) the Bundeswehr have only 2 lieutenant ranks in WW1 time it gave 3 lieutenant ranks, like nowadays in russia

 

Feldwebelleutnant - Sub Lieutenant (not exist in US)

Leutnant - lieutenant ( = US Second Lieutenant)

Oberleutnant - Major Lieutenant ( = US First Lieutanent)

Hauptmann / Rittmeister - captain

Major - major

Oberstleutnant - lieutenant colonel

Oberst - colonel

[Olham 164]

Yeah, I checked other sites, and you seem to be right - at least compared with today's army ranks.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Gepard, my understanding of the rank of Offiziersstellvertreter during WWI was that it equated more to the rank of Warrant Officer rather than Chief Master Sergeant in that it was no longer an NCO rank nor was it an Officer rank, but hovered between the two.

 

.

[Olham 164]

The "Warrant Officer" was in the army of the Kaiserreich the "Feldwebelleutnant";

he was a non-commissioned officer with lanyard, who got promoted after long

service time to Feldwebelleutnant, which was almost the same rank as a Leutnant,

but still slightly below Leutnant, because he did not have the officer's patent.

 

I just found this excerpt from a companie in WW1, which seems to show, that "Offizierstellvertreter"

was not a military rank, but a position given to a non-commisioned officer with lanyard.

Here in this example are four Vizefeldwebel, who were also "Offizierstellvertreter";

directly translated, it means "someone to replace an officer's position".

 

11. Kompagnie: Hauptmann Sieveking, Oberleutnant d. R. Rissom (gefallen), Leutnant d. L. Kreipe,

Offizierstellvertreter Vizefeldwebel Trettin, Offizierstellvertreter Vizefeldwebel Heberling (gefallen).

12. Kompagnie: Hauptmann d. R. Orth, Leutnant d. R. Stüve, Leutnant d. L. Kahle,

Offizierstellvertreter Vizefeldwebel Rose, Offizierstellvertreter Vizefeldwebel Eckstein.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Olham

[+Paarma 0]

From the theaerodrome source it says:

 

Sergeant Major - Vizefeldwebel

Sergeant - Feldwebel

 

Same is sayd Peter Kilduff´s book - Black fokker leader.

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/ranks/index.php

[+Paarma 0]

About "Offizierstellvertreter" is warrant officer. I think Olham you right. Many non-comissioned officer like Josef Mai, Carl Degelow, Fritz Rümey etc... Was "Offizierstellvertreter" before finally promoted leutnant´s der reserve whitch was called non-commissioned officers who was promoted officers. THis happened useally later 1918 when more experienced pilots needed to lead new jastas. Then pilots with experience but no officer rank was trained to leutnant´s der reserve. The Jastaf'ührer needed to be least lowest ranking officer "leutnant".

[Olham 164]

Thank you for that Aerodrome link - missed it before. Merry Christmas, Paarma!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

OK, now I'm more confused than usual. So, does Offiziersstellvertreter equate to Warrant Officer as I noted, or is it a non-rank status as noted by Olham? And Vizefeldwebel is higher in rank than Feldwebel?

 

.

[Olham 164]

According to this chart, the Vizefeldwebel was ranking below the Feldwebel (as one would assume from the rank name).

It looks like a Vizefeldwebel would have got the (almost) same rank as the Feldwebel, when he had the position of an

"Offizierstellvertreter".

 

http://www.agw14-18....ienstgrade.html

 

"Offizierstellvertreter" seems to mean the highest available rank below an officer, which normally would have been a Feldwebel.

But a Vizefeldwebel could be given that position "to replace an officer" - a "deputy officer" so to say.

So again, "Offizierstellvertreter was no specific rank by it's own, but an addition to an available rank for that position.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Olham

[Hasse Wind 46]

It's certainly illogical that a Vizefeldwebel should be above Feldwebel. It's like a Vice Admiral would be above Admiral. Vice (Vize) has the following meaning in a dictionary:

 

[Cf. F. vice-. See Vice, prep.]

Denoting one who in certain cases may assume the office or duties of a superior; designating an officer or an office that is second in rank or authority; as, vice president; vice agent; vice consul, etc.

 

For once, the Aerodrome site seems to be wrong.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Hasse Wind

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

There are many intermediate NCO ranks I had never heard of. Just for my very own militaria culture, has some German member a link to propose to an illustrated site about how these ranks insignias were displayed? I knew that before the 3rd Reich, the NCOs used a system with discs and stripes on the collar, without epaulette, which can be seen on many aces pictures. But seeing now how many ranks there actually were, it must be more complex than I thought.

[+Paarma 0]

I didnt found other sources to confirm the rank order, but anyway if you look the pilots ranks, how many rank Feldwebel pilots you know? All i found was Vizefeldwebel. I saw few pilot promotion lists i found there was first untteroffizier, then vizefeldwebel and then next Offizierstellvertreter. Looks like the rank feldwebel is missing, it might be that it was rank that didnt fit to fighter jasta units, or was useally change to higher rank. If the Vizefeldwebel is lower rank than feldwebel it might be that many times pilots was vizefeldwebels before they was promoted to Offizierstellvertreter. Merry Christmas my friend Olham!!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

...wha...no...no Merry Christmas for the rest of us Paarma...just good ol' Olham? ...sniff, sniff...th-th-that's OK...we don't mind...sniff, sniff...

 

 

Just kidding Paarma! Merry Christmas to you and yours!

 

.

[+Paarma 0]

Lol, Sorry my good old mate Louvert. I wish you and your family restful and peaceful Xmas time!!!! Also thanks for all the other members. You are keeped the OFF forum spirit alive and shared important interest that will surely encourage our OBD-team.

 

All the best

 

Arto

[+Paarma 0]

Ok found more promotion lists. This is Ernst Udet personnel record from book: Neal W O´Connor - Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in WW1 Vol IV. Page 213

 

"28 November 1915: Promoted 'Unteroffizier"

"13 March 1916: Promoted "Vizefeldwebel"

"5 November 1916: Promoted "Offizier-Stellvertreter"

"22 January 1917: Promoted "Leutnant der Reserve"

 

So no Feldwebel rank is seen in list...

[Hasse Wind 46]

This is an interesting mystery. Maybe there was a difference between peacetime and wartime ranks, or something? Why did they skip the rank of Feldwebel?

 

I wonder if this is something that would be best to confirm from a German source? Maybe some military museum or something. The Imperial German NCO rank system seems to be very confusing compared to later times, or other armies of the era.

[+Gepard 11,298]

As german native speeker i must say the link Paarma found (aerosomthing) is murx in german or rubbish in english language.

 

In german air forces, as i said above, were two lines of pilots. Pilots in sergeants rank and pilots in officers rank. There were no pilots in soldiers ranks (as far as i know)

What mean the ranks Flieger and Gefreiter are not existing in the flying personal, but available at the ground crews.

 

When an officer from an other unit (cavallery for example) moved to the Fliegertruppe he startet with his officer rank (von Richthofen is such an example). Seargents startet with a sergeant rank and could promote to the highest Seargents rank or could switch to the officers carrier. This is what Paarma correctly found on Udet. He started as Seargent and then switched to officer carrier. If he would have stayed in the sergeants carrier he would have promoted to Feldwebel.

 

An Vicefeldwebel or Vizefeldwebel is always below the Feldwebel.

The Feldwebel is the 3 step in sergeants carrier. You start with Unteroffizier, will become Vicefeldwebel (Unterfeldwebel[east germany] Stabsunteroffizier [west germany]) and then Feldwebel.

Simple trick for reminding: a ViceAdmiral is always lower in rank as an Admiral.

 

My fault was to declare the Offiziersstellvertreter as Chef Master Sergeant. This is wrong. Offiziersstellvertreter is no rank its a Dienststellung (duty position? hope this is the correct translation) and was not connected with a rank. What means, that all Sergeants could be Offiziersstellvertreter. Normally 1 or 2 Sergeants of a Kompanie/Staffel were Offiziersstellvertreter. Other designations in soldiers slang are "Spieß" or "Stiefmutter der Kompanie".

In the east german army we had a similar system. One of the seargents was "Hauptfeldwebel", but his rank was Feldwebel. He was the Deputy of the Officers.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Gepard

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

There were no pilots in soldiers ranks (as far as i know) What mean the ranks Flieger and Gefreiter are not existing in the flying personal, but available at the ground crews.

 

Actually Gepard, I must disagree with you there, at least on the point of Gefreiter. There are numerous entries for Gefreiter pilots in various WWI sources. By WWII this was different and I believe you would then be correct. As to the Flieger pilot, I recall seeing reference made to that rank in the German flight schools in WWI. Perhaps by the time they were breveted they were then promoted to the rank of Gefreiter. I will see if I can find any mention of a Flieger pilot actually assigned to a combat unit.

 

.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

I have already found numerous entries for Flieger and Gefreiter pilots in various places, here is one such source that is rich with them:

 

The Kagohl/Bogohl III Story

 

This group's records show many such "soldier" pilots serving, (and dying), in their ranks.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

.

[+Paarma 0]

Well i must disagreed Gepard on this. There is surely been ranks flieger/private, and gefreiter. Example Udet also started as pilot in Artillerie-Flieger-Abteilung 9 on15 june 1915, then promoted Gefreiter 21 september 1915.

Example jasta 5 was good example. There war many pilots who started lower rank and got finally officer rank as well known ace.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Well, although I must confess that I still don't understand very much about the Imperial Germany system for ranking pilots, the discussion has been fascinating!

[+Gepard 11,298]

Seems to be, that there were really Gefreite as pilots. Astonished me a little bit. That gunners etc were from soldiers ranks ... okay, but pilots? Maybe then i have learned something new again.

While research a little bit i found that in the early times the observers/navigators in a 2 seater plane were higher ranking than the pilots. In slang they were called Emil (pilot) and Franz (observer/navigator). When in WW1 a plane by observers/navigators error lost the orientation then it was said "Das Flugzeug hat sich verfranzt." From this a german proverb comes: "Ich hab mich verfranzt." What means "I've lost the orientation." Its used up today.