SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[Robert33 2]

@Kyot54

If I'm not mistaken, the Luftwaffe lost a sizeable number of their F4s (Pre F-ICE model) during operations, similar though no doubt less than the F-104s. Then again, the F-104 was the first mach2 fighter available to West Germany at the time and pilots (who trained) in the sunny US skies were pressed into the low-level strike role in Germany's usually bad (low overcast cloudy) weather. Add to that the maintenance crews who were not yet properly trained to the level of the F-104 and Hartman was right about his concerns with the Starfighter.

 

To be fair, just as Cougar mentioned, the F4 was so hamfisted that it wouldn't do anything silly even if the pilot wanted it to... Which probably led to it being the safer plane to fly along with having more experience with handling mach2 fighters paid for with the lives of young low-hour pilots who lost it in the F-104G in low-level missions. I guess the Luftwaffe motto back then was "Train like its for real".

 

Though you must admit that if you were a Soviet commander back in the Cold War, you'll be having sleepless nights thinking about those F-104Gs poised to do a high-speed lo-lo-lo nuke strikes at high-speed. ;)

 

@EricJ

Which F-104 version did you use?

 

@Cougar

Which F-104 variant are you planning to use for your upcoming "mega-DACT"? The G model of the Luftwaffe or the S model of the Italian Air Force?

[+EricJ 4,248]

Ahh sorry about that, I fixed the description, was the TW F-104A

[Kyot54 2]

Some shot pre-DACT debrief....

I flew with F-4's, Mirage F1s', F-104's and MiG-23G MLA in preparation for some more in depth DACT reports. I only have the F-8 to test and i should be ready to go. Still.... from my previous Crusaider experience, i don't think that bird belongs here.

 

 

 

 

 

Probably not, having flown the -23 and Phantom a bit lately, comparably the Crusader is downright nimble. It really only becomes a pain once you get below 300 knots. It can turn tight, but you lose airspeed fast, or you can turn fast but not tight. I generally stick to the latter if I am going up again something like the Fresco, to stay out of gun range. But if it's something you might have a second or two to regain energy, then the tighter turn can work, especially if you want to force an overshoot. I'll just say, in the few F-8 vs MiG-23 1v,2v s I've done, the Crusader ran circles around it. Even at almost a full fuel load.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           J

[saisran 84]

For quite sometime i felt that the game became quite easy.. turns out i got Blackout settings on fries. All better now! hehe!.

 

So i've been ignoring this plane for quite sometime now despite having looked really hard for it before. I have wanted to get good with this as my country's airforce used to fly them, but somehow this just doesn't appeal to me the same way as a tomcat or a sader or a phantom does. 

 

F-5 vs Mig-29

 

Pulled up right off the merge, came down and hes gunning for a head to head. obliged and missed. one circles for eternity so i cut a bit of the video. got bored and went for vertical presses and head on shots but wasn't able to get a good enough angle for it. It got pretty repetitive so i just focused more and ended it. 

 

 

Ended the fight in another turn fight and just as i ran out of ammo i got him.

 

The F-5 (in game atleast) is a good fighter. It turns pretty well decent turn rate and decent turn radius at all speeds, has two good engines that gives it enough grunt for decent acceleration and speed, climbs pretty well too. What else handling is neutral. not jerky nor slow. So in conclusion, the F-5 is a plane that can do almost everything pretty well, isn't bad at anything but at the same time, it doesn't have that thing that makes it stand out. It's a jack of all trades. You know that in an F-5 your in a pretty safe place. It should be able to slightly out perform its contemporaries in some aspect of flight/fight, how ever it doesn't blew them away. And that's the thing about this plane. In the battle against the fulcrum i was almost always in a position of advantage. however that's all i was able to get though most of the fight. it does a decent job at almost everything without faltering or without being spectacular that it just feels boring to fly. I guess this is the reason why i favor the F-8 more than it.

[cougar_1979 37]

 

 

 

@Cougar

Which F-104 variant are you planning to use for your upcoming "mega-DACT"? The G model of the Luftwaffe or the S model of the Italian Air Force?

Not sure yet, but having flown a few, it won't really make that much of a difference. I'd like to keep the engangements pre-80's so already traded the MLA for the ML. For the 104, probably either G or A/C.

 

Probably not, having flown the -23 and Phantom a bit lately, comparably the Crusader is downright nimble. It really only becomes a pain once you get below 300 knots. It can turn tight, but you lose airspeed fast, or you can turn fast but not tight. I generally stick to the latter if I am going up again something like the Fresco, to stay out of gun range. But if it's something you might have a second or two to regain energy, then the tighter turn can work, especially if you want to force an overshoot. I'll just say, in the few F-8 vs MiG-23 1v,2v s I've done, the Crusader ran circles around it. Even at almost a full fuel load.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           J

Agreed. The Crusader would do well in some other "themed" DACT.

 

 

The F-5 (in game atleast) is a good fighter. It turns pretty well decent turn rate and decent turn radius at all speeds, has two good engines that gives it enough grunt for decent acceleration and speed, climbs pretty well too. What else handling is neutral. not jerky nor slow. So in conclusion, the F-5 is a plane that can do almost everything pretty well, isn't bad at anything but at the same time, it doesn't have that thing that makes it stand out. It's a jack of all trades. You know that in an F-5 your in a pretty safe place. It should be able to slightly out perform its contemporaries in some aspect of flight/fight, how ever it doesn't blew them away. And that's the thing about this plane. In the battle against the fulcrum i was almost always in a position of advantage. however that's all i was able to get though most of the fight. it does a decent job at almost everything without faltering or without being spectacular that it just feels boring to fly. I guess this is the reason why i favor the F-8 more than it.

Seing you fly it, i think you favor angles over energy fighters. Have you flown any Hornets extensively? They are like F-5s on steroids and then some (no wonder there as the F-5 was used as a base for the YF-17). I would recommend them to you more then any other AC i have ever seen perform.

 

This is the first pair match up. The hop involves #1 and #4 on my list, MiG-23ML and Mirage F1. Switching from MLA to ML made some difference actually. The HUD symbology changed, but even more important, the radar ability to lock in boresight mode was reduced. I took the 23 first. We fly guns only. The two planes are almost exactly the same in a turn. I decided to play fair and avoided virtual exploits as often as possible. The Mirage rolled much better and had better visibility from the cockpit. The MiG had faster acceleration. In fact it was so fast, i struggled with overshoots few times. It should be noted that i have the least amount of flight time in this AC, so it is mostly my own fault and not the plane's. After the both fights were over, i have even harder time deciding between the two. The AI seams to handle the F1 a bit better though. It kept the 23 very fast (over 500KIAS when possible) and this gave it very wide tunring circles. It avoided breaking and using its stored energy to get better angles. I will have to try the MLA as an oponent to see if the AI will handle it the same. Final verdict.....even the ML is somewhat supperior to the F1 when flown by a human pilot. The excess energy can be used in various ways (either for traiding speed for angles or speed for attitude) and as unweildy as it is, it's still better then the F1 when slow. The F1's nasty spin tendencies when bellow 1000ft and bellow 350KIAS make it a very bad choice to enter any nose pointing contest.

 

Here are the videos: 

 

 

 

My next pair will be the F-4 and the F-104.... but i have a dilema. Originally i wanted to match the NAVY F-4N VS the other AC. However with no internal gun, it makes it tricky to set it up as an enemy plane. The loadouts in the mission editor involve short range and long range air-to-air, but these are esentially the same. Does anyone know how i can make the aggressor carry custom loads? And if i chose to fly against an F-4 with internal gun, which one should have perfomance most similar to the N?

[KJakker 902]

Here, try the attached modified F-4N_LOADOUT.ini file. It has the entry below added to it so that you can set the AI F-4N's to only carry the navy Mk4 20mm gun pod via the mission editor.

 

[AirToAirGunOnly]

Loadout[05].WeaponType=MK4

Loadout[05].Quantity=1

 

F-4N_LOADOUT.7z

 

Edited October 23, 2014 by KJakker

[+EricJ 4,248]

Me: Mig-29C_Rus with 4 x R-74EM, 2 x R-27Rs, gun

Opposition: F-5N with two (I would assume) 9Ls or 9Ms (time period was 2001 so...)

 

Started above and I honestly tried to record the session for once, rather than always talk it through, which is always more illustrative of what happened, not that I say a load of crap anyway.  Anyway... He managed to take off and selected R-74s and had an instant lock, but I let him... well I ended up getting in front of him a minute later and battle commenced.  The F-5 had a lot of energy and put me in a few energy circles (which at first went vertical to break it) and after about the second one I got tired of the flopping around (pulling too hard on the stick again...) and it helped always to relax on the stick, but when you're full burner it's a nasty habit to pull hard even though really the plane really literally can't do it (speed, inertia, etc.).  One vertical the F-5 went vertical (coming up) as I went down and saw some red tracers but none connected so we ended up in another energy circle and at one point managed to get an R-74 off, went for an off-boresight  shot as I had a lock and what the hell... but it was defeated by flares and at that point the F-5 (in my world view) started to lose its aggressive posture and go slightly defensive, enabling me to get another lock (hip shot this one) and it connected, downing the F-5

 

Takeaways:  It was fun and that's what I like about DACT, at least the ones where you work for the kill rather than it porpoise and you shoot it out of it's misery because it's wasting yours and his time in flying.  Anyway, the old AI programming kicks in once you get a missile off.  Sometimes it missing (and you have at least one missile left) helps, but in retrospect it is a wasted missile... so think it through at least with more modern versions of AAMs too.  The older ones at least make you work for a kill (rear-aspect only) but it should be reinforced that if it starts going to go defensive... jump on that opportunity as the experience sets in analyzing behavior as now it's slowing down and thinking a bit more rather than just being aggressive.  The last shot was a good reminder at instinct of when to fire.  Sometimes you're taking a chance but it flew true into the F-5s tail cleanly. 

 

Again screenies are of to verify loadouts, as I obviously thought I would actually record an engagement...

[Robert33 2]

My next pair will be the F-4 and the F-104.... but i have a dilema. Originally i wanted to match the NAVY F-4N VS the other AC. However with no internal gun, it makes it tricky to set it up as an enemy plane. The loadouts in the mission editor involve short range and long range air-to-air, but these are esentially the same. Does anyone know how i can make the aggressor carry custom loads? And if i chose to fly against an F-4 with internal gun, which one should have perfomance most similar to the N?

 

May I suggest using the Italian F-104S/CI model (Interceptor variant) if you have the mod in your files. It only carries missiles, a pair of sparrows and four sidewinders (up to six sidewinders if I'm not mistaken). Maybe that would ease your comparison troubles with the F-4N. The S-model entered service with the Italian Air Force sometime around 1968 so it should fit your pre-80s timetable.

 

As for your other option... say F4 with a gun? how about the F4E? seems to perform good. Best F-104 match up for it, methinks would be the 1972-78 versions of the CF-104 or the G model.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Robert33

[saisran 84]

 

 

Seing you fly it, i think you favor angles over energy fighters. Have you flown any Hornets extensively? They are like F-5s on steroids and then some (no wonder there as the F-5 was used as a base for the YF-17). I would recommend them to you more then any other AC i have ever seen perform.

 

 

 

I did flew the Hornet before. Back when i knew too little about flying and at that time it didn't work for me. But it could also be very much due to my partiality and love of the Tomcat. :) And jumping from the Tomcat which handles night and day compare to the Hornet it was too much for me to get used too. That being said i did understand its strength and respect its capabilities. 

 

Cant wait to see that Mega DACT...

 

 

Eric -  your DACT Reports has always been a great study on the fighters your using. Keep em coming.

[+EricJ 4,248]

No problem glad to do them every once in a while to keep the reflexes going.  As honestly if Arma 3 had bigger terrains I'd spend more time there but as I mentioned in one of my documents, flying around in circles gets old.  But I'm getting back into DCS for long distance and duration flying, which is good for the soul (in my case anyway) and so on, so it is what it is.

 

As for the Tomcat?  I just never liked fying as it never obviously grew on me like the Super Bug has as of late.  For me it's the right combo as the Tomcat is a bit heavy but overall as a mud mover it's good enough but the limited warload... no thanks.  Every plane has it's good points and most of the time I look for more strike than dogfighting, though despite the shorter legs the Super Hornet works for me as it maintains a high alpha and a good amount of pylons to mount bombs and stuff

[saisran 84]

No problem glad to do them every once in a while to keep the reflexes going.  As honestly if Arma 3 had bigger terrains I'd spend more time there but as I mentioned in one of my documents, flying around in circles gets old.  But I'm getting back into DCS for long distance and duration flying, which is good for the soul (in my case anyway) and so on, so it is what it is.

 

As for the Tomcat?  I just never liked fying as it never obviously grew on me like the Super Bug has as of late.  For me it's the right combo as the Tomcat is a bit heavy but overall as a mud mover it's good enough but the limited warload... no thanks.  Every plane has it's good points and most of the time I look for more strike than dogfighting, though despite the shorter legs the Super Hornet works for me as it maintains a high alpha and a good amount of pylons to mount bombs and stuff

 

To each his own. Respect. :)

 

 

Tried a different DACT

 

P-51D vs Meteor F.8

 

 

I was expecting the circle right after the merge but it just extended and flew straight. after chasing it for a while it made its move to engage and i complied. Despite having greater maneuverability the Mustang doesn't have the overall speed to catch the meteor and it was really refreshing to see the AI using a different tactic when tackling a light piston driven plane. Instead of going on 1 circle all the time it tried to extend and reset. However The game eventually devolved to the one circle which lead to the demise of the meteor. :)

[cougar_1979 37]

 

Here, try the attached modified F-4N_LOADOUT.ini file. It has the entry below added to it so that you can set the AI F-4N's to only carry the navy Mk4 20mm gun pod via the mission editor.

 

[AirToAirGunOnly]

Loadout[05].WeaponType=MK4

Loadout[05].Quantity=1

 

Thanks mate! Will try that out ASAP.

 

May I suggest using the Italian F-104S/CI model (Interceptor variant) if you have the mod in your files. It only carries missiles, a pair of sparrows and four sidewinders (up to six sidewinders if I'm not mistaken). Maybe that would ease your comparison troubles with the F-4N. The S-model entered service with the Italian Air Force sometime around 1968 so it should fit your pre-80s timetable.

 

As for your other option... say F4 with a gun? how about the F4E? seems to perform good. Best F-104 match up for it, methinks would be the 1972-78 versions of the CF-104 or the G model.

The BVR should come after (and if i have the time). Right now i am focused on the ACM part, which i prefer doing guns only.

 

I did flew the Hornet before. Back when i knew too little about flying and at that time it didn't work for me. But it could also be very much due to my partiality and love of the Tomcat. :) And jumping from the Tomcat which handles night and day compare to the Hornet it was too much for me to get used too. That being said i did understand its strength and respect its capabilities. 

 

Cant wait to see that Mega DACT...

 

 

Well the Tomcat is my favorite as well, but that down't stop me from trying to enjoy and study all the planes. That is how i found (in BMS at least), that i have the highest kill ration (5:1) in the C Hornet. If you fly the F-5 with ease, then the F-18 should work even better for you. Benign characteristics, superb high alpha handling, tight turns. Jut remember to ease up on the stick every now and then to recover all that energy you bled off in those turns. For a complete oposite, try the F-16, or even the 104.

 

 

[+EricJ 4,248]

Me: F-16CM Block 52 with 4 x AIM-9M, gun

Opposition: Mig-29C Russian with 4 x R-73s and 2 x R-27s, gun.

 

Video (finally got it working and finding out Shadow Play works much better than FRAPS for video recordings) (though towards the end it got a frame rate hit (didn't happen while recording so.... got me):

 

 

Takeaways:  I remember vaguely Fubar512 making some realism updates so I that applied to the flares, which as you saw in the video worked quite well against the 9M.  Key points is that when you come over the top if trying to break an energy circle if he's still moving too fast, don't fire (every engagement has it's own rules of course) and wait until he "stabilizes" and take the shot.  Unfortunately I almost had a mid-air (pucker factor... extreme ) at the start but it also shows that using padlock is a pain in the butt but in the end I managed to get on top of him again... wait for the shot when dealing with a more maneuverable adversary, he'll slip up and you'll have the opportunity.  It also should be a key note with patience as well as being aggressive.  Usually when I fire a shot I sort of "relax" and pray that it'll connect.  Well obviously the first three didn't but then again given I had a similar (and worse, I ran out of missiles and reaaaal rusty on guns) situation for the previous DACT.  I honestly should have kept that recording but I like to show the good more than the bad, the previous encounter all four 'winders missed (going to try 9X as opposed to 9M) and and didn't feel ready to get to guns (I was also in a bad position though once I should have gunned him down.... again rust is showing).  But... back on topic I instantly started to maneuver again when the 'Winders failed to connect which is something you need to keep aware of as if it fails you need to always resort to getting in position again and nailing the guy...

 

@saisran:  Agreed and the same.

 

[Kyot54 2]

 

As for the Tomcat?  I just never liked fying as it never obviously grew on me like the Super Bug has as of late.  For me it's the right combo as the Tomcat is a bit heavy but overall as a mud mover it's good enough but the limited warload... no thanks.  Every plane has it's good points and most of the time I look for more strike than dogfighting, though despite the shorter legs the Super Hornet works for me as it maintains a high alpha and a good amount of pylons to mount bombs and stuff

 

One place the Tomcat really shined was in the FAC(A) role, which a lot of guys took over to the Super Bug when they were forced to transition. The 18F just doesn't have the loiter time or ability. I agree that the Super Bug is a decent Strike plane, and I can carry enough A2A, plus bombs that I don't worry about having to bug out (no pun intended) because I've gone Winchester, however bugging out is a more realistic scenario= "select Zone 5 and extend, better to save your plane, than push a bad position", so sayeth the Viper. I do miss the ability to designate multiple strike targets (for thing such as an airfield) that I had in FA. It's bad@** skimming the tree tops at 700kts, popping up and dropping 4 JDAMs (1 on the runway, 1 on the tower, and a couple on hangers) all in one fell swoop before hitting the deck and hauling out of there. I have to use dumb bombs to do anything similar in game, and then I have to jink to drop them in the right spots. I love going in fast and low, and the Hornet, either one, just can't do it as well as the 'cat.

 

Saisran, you said your country used to fly F-5's? Where from if I might ask?

[+EricJ 4,248]

One place the Tomcat really shined was in the FAC(A) role, which a lot of guys took over to the Super Bug when they were forced to transition. The 18F just doesn't have the loiter time or ability. I agree that the Super Bug is a decent Strike plane, and I can carry enough A2A, plus bombs that I don't worry about having to bug out (no pun intended) because I've gone Winchester, however bugging out is a more realistic scenario= "select Zone 5 and extend, better to save your plane, than push a bad position", so sayeth the Viper. I do miss the ability to designate multiple strike targets (for thing such as an airfield) that I had in FA. It's bad@** skimming the tree tops at 700kts, popping up and dropping 4 JDAMs (1 on the runway, 1 on the tower, and a couple on hangers) all in one fell swoop before hitting the deck and hauling out of there. I have to use dumb bombs to do anything similar in game, and then I have to jink to drop them in the right spots. I love going in fast and low, and the Hornet, either one, just can't do it as well as the 'cat.

 

Unfortunately that capability doesn't exist (it may for the DCS version, one hopes...) but yeah remember that the SF2 engine isn't designed for it but I still manage to carry enough tanks (one just because... sometimes) but overall the scale of the maps (60% of the real world terrain if my mind serves me right) don't necessitate a large number of drop tanks.  I remember for Operation Darius that I was carrying one tank and tried to figure out combat loads as said... the smaller scale of the map really didn't necessitate anything more for long range strikes.

[saisran 84]

 

Saisran, you said your country used to fly F-5's? Where from if I might ask?

 

Philippines. Local gov doesn't care much nor does it has the budget for fighters. But they did manage to acquire Surplus F-5As and Bs. Which were retired back in 2004. The military goverment of Marcos managed to acquire brand new F-8s in the late 80s or early 90s i believe but they were all damaged during the Mt. Pinatubo eruption. So far that's the extent of my countries air power (sucks i know!). It basically just relies on what ever the US can spare.

[Robert33 2]

Philippines. Local gov doesn't care much nor does it has the budget for fighters. But they did manage to acquire Surplus F-5As and Bs. Which were retired back in 2004. The military goverment of Marcos managed to acquire brand new F-8s in the late 80s or early 90s i believe but they were all damaged during the Mt. Pinatubo eruption. So far that's the extent of my countries air power (sucks i know!). It basically just relies on what ever the US can spare.

Quoted for truth. The Philippine Air Force is 90% air and 10% force, sad to say... There were talks back in the late 90s to early 2000s about acquiring new fighters for the PAF but it never materialised. Most air power assets of the PAF are currently prioritised for counter-insurgency at the moment...

[cougar_1979 37]

 

Here, try the attached modified F-4N_LOADOUT.ini file. It has the entry below added to it so that you can set the AI F-4N's to only carry the navy Mk4 20mm gun pod via the mission editor.

 

 

It worked. Now i can put any load i need for a given scenario. The first thought that came to mind was the SUU-11 gun pods, used in Vietnam. I will have to fly it with and against the F-4E of course, to see which version the AI will handle better. Thanks again!

 

Unfortunately that capability doesn't exist (it may for the DCS version, one hopes...) but yeah remember that the SF2 engine isn't designed for it but I still manage to carry enough tanks (one just because... sometimes) but overall the scale of the maps (60% of the real world terrain if my mind serves me right) don't necessitate a large number of drop tanks.  I remember for Operation Darius that I was carrying one tank and tried to figure out combat loads as said... the smaller scale of the map really didn't necessitate anything more for long range strikes.

DCS has plans for a Tomcat? There was a time when they were adamant against it. The reason given was it would require too much work to make it double seater compatible, and not justified the effort. I know there is a good version of the F-15 on the way, and there was a Hornet in the works if i remember correctly.

[+EricJ 4,248]

No... AFAIK like everybody else there is no plans that I know of a Tomcat, as I believe a year or so ago IRIS was going to do one but they dropped DCS if my mind serves me right, I thought you were talking about the Super Hornet, which to my knowledge does have the capability to do as such.

 

As far as I know (which is nothing other than what they put out, had some personal issues to take care of before I got back fully into things) the DCS Hornet is still alive from what I catch on the public forums so hopefully they'll get around to doing two-seaters, but given the engine (maybe EDGE? Who knows when you're not in the know anymore and just don't ask but my status... I'm not bothering and if I did know I wouldn't be able to tell anyway so no point in digging) again it may be a forlorn hope as I prefer the F to the E Super anyway.

[saisran 84]

Quoted for truth. The Philippine Air Force is 90% air and 10% force, sad to say... There were talks back in the late 90s to early 2000s about acquiring new fighters for the PAF but it never materialised. Most air power assets of the PAF are currently prioritised for counter-insurgency at the moment...

 

Sad but true. To be honest the Country doesn't need F-14's or F-15's. It mostly needs mud movers and Helo's for peace keeping and ok. Maybe it'll be great if we have a tomcat for interception. But small cheap brand new agile fighters should be enough for home defense.  

 

Since we got off topic i'm going to try and make amends with this.

 

I really love this plane. I like how it responds to my inputs and the sound of those canons are just lovely. I remember i had a mod where i separated the guns into two groups for ammo preservation and maximum lethality mode. :)

 

F-8C 2x AIM-9H , guns, VS 2 Mig-21bis 4X Atolls i believe.,

 

 

 

When i checked the log book it seems that the first mig shot down was able to a couple of missiles aside from guns.

 

I made a lot of mistakes and failed to capitalize on a few good positions early on. I also let a lot off opportunity for a heater shot go by sticking to guns. But among my recent game play this by far was the most fun i ever had. 

[Caesar 305]

OK, so I did something a little out of character for me: I did a DACT with missiles.  Also wish I had recorded this one because it was a pretty interesting finale.  The fight was a 4 v 8 modification of a TOPGUN mission I had made with A-4's and F-5's against whatever I chose to bring up against them.  This time, I replaced the simulator aircraft with MiG-17F's and MiG-21bis.  Year was 1975, so the reliability of the missiles and their general capabilities were not as good as with the later "death rays."

 

My flight was a mix of Navy aircraft, myself in the F-14A_74, #2 in an F-4J, #3 in an F-8J and #4 also in an F-4J.  Loadouts were:

F-14A: 2x AIM-54A on glove pylons, 2x AIM-9G on glove pylons, 4x AIM-7E-4 between the engines, guns.

F-4J: 4x AIM-9H, 4x AIM-7E-2.

F-8J: 4x AIM-9H, guns.

 

The enemy were loaded with:

MiG-17F: Guns.

MiG-21bis: 4x AA-2, guns.

 

The fight started about 127NM away with the AWG-9 picking up the flight of four MiG-17F's.  While I had the option to fire at about 115, the aspect was about 90 degrees angle off, and I knew from prior trials with the AIM-54 that they wouldn't reach their target if I fired them from that far away at that aspect, so I continued to close.  At about 90NM to the Fresco flight, the MiG-21's began to take off, and were flying towards my flight.  I directed two and three to engage the Fishbeds.  At this point, I lit the cans to get my AIM-54's some decent starting speed.

 

 

 

At about 58NM to the MiG-17's and at 1.55M, I designated two as targets and fired two AIM-54's, the first came off stupid, the second fired properly.  This put me ahead of my flight and closer to the MiG-21's, but they had neither long range missiles or face-shooter short range missiles, so I wasn't overly concerned.  My original plan was to down the MiG-17's at long range and deal with the MiG-21's in close, since the Frescoes are extremely maneuverable and I didn't want to be turning and burning with them.  The first Fresco got hit and destroyed by the AIM-54. 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the MiG-21's were now very close to me, so I had to change my attention to them.  The AIM-7E-series has a short Rmax and the MiG-21's would begin to turn to change aspect when we locked them up.  At about 11 miles to the first, I fired an AIM-7 at the second MiG-21 on my radar.  About 5 seconds later, my wingman fired an AIM-7 at the lead MiG-21.  Both Sparrows hit and destroyed their targets.  I got lock on the final MiG-21, too close for an AIM-7 shot, but in the ideal envelope for an AIM-9; I considered that the Frescoes were still up, and I'd probably want the AIM-9's for them, but this was perfect for a shot and I fired that AIM-9 at the MiG-21 on the nose and hit him.

 

 

 

 

At this time, two things happened.  My number three called BINGO, and I got lock on one of the MiG-17's.  They had spotted us and were closing.  I elected to send flight 2 home, but that's when I realized that this included my wing man, who I had hoped would engage the Frescoes with me.  Well, too late now.  Locking one of the Frescoes, I sent an AIM-7 his way and shot him down.  That's when I noticed one of his other two wingmen were headed right at me, and I pulled a bit to get off of their nose to deny a head on shot.  The second one was beneath me, flying up, and attempting to get a head-on solution as well.  I could see this guy was now the threat, pulled into him, nose slightly low.

 

 

Since these two were already in a turn, it didn't take them long to start getting into a threatening position.  The guy who had passed me earlier was coming around onto my tails since I had made a maneuver to deny his wingman a shot.  I had begun to turn with him, then I thought to myself "what the hell am I doing?" and pulled vertical into a loop.  The MiG-17's followed, but I had done this a hundred times before: they can't stay in the loop because they run out of airspeed.  As I entered this loop, the MiG-17 that had gotten on my tail tried for a shot, but I rudder rolled and he missed.  The second Fresco was near the top of the loop, and within a second of the last also fired, and also missed.

 

I realized I didn't have my flaps down, but I was already regaining energy.  We were at low altitude, and before coming back up, I kept the nose pointed down to get closer to the terrain.  At about 1000 feet, the MiG-17's stopped tracking me and did a direct pull up for ground avoidance.  Now I went back up into another loop, also having an idea of their "knock it off" altitude.  On the way back up the second time, I got the flaps out and the Frescoes stalled out, but I wasn't able to immediately capitalize as I was just getting to the top of my loop.  As I came down I fed in rudder; the trailing MiG-17 was a more achievable target and I sprayed some 20mm in his direction.  Not enough lead.  

 

 

 

However, the MiG-17 was on the deck again and leveled his wings.  I finished my turn onto his tail and launched an AIM-9 at him, splashing him.  I then checked for the last MiG-17, who was turning at about my 9 o'clock.  Rolled and pulled into him, using low altitude and flaps as an advantage.  At certain points in the turn, the Fresco pilot pulled to avoid the ground, then re-entered the turn.  We were approaching nose-on each other, and I could see I'd get first shot.  I attempted to get lead and fired a burst in his direction, but missed.  We passed, continued, and twenty seconds later, I got good lead and shot him down with the Vulcan.

 

 

 

 

 

Takeaways:

Sending flight 1 home also sends home your wingman.  I hadn't remembered that, but now I do!  Not the kind of thing you want to do necessarily, but with 3 and 4 at BINGO, they'd have been useless.  Having the long range advantage is particularly powerful and can easily help to dictate the fight as it did here.  In the end, there was a furball, but that furball wound up being 1 v 2 rather than 4 or 8.  Also, I have no idea what the hell happened to the last MiG-21.  By the time I headed back to base, he was nowhere to be seen.  Also, it was nice to get a kill with every weapon system on the aircraft!

 

[saisran 84]

That's one of the great thing about the tomcat. I was campaigning earlier and was tasked to do recon. the escorts flying ahead ran into trouble with the enemy aces. My flight ended up rescuing the escorts from being decimated using The AIM-54 to break them up, Huge fuel load to close in supersonic. AIM-7 to eliminate early treats and the winders and guns for sweeping off the rest. Although you have to be careful using the phoenix when there's friendlies around chances of friendly fire is high.

[cougar_1979 37]

@Caesar, excellent report mate! And some of those captures..... awesome timing  

Here is the second pair matchup. This time it's the F-104 VS F-4. I had several fly-offs between USAF F-4E and USN F-4N and F-4J. The NAVY Phantoms sure show better BVR capabilitites, and the two planes are a very near match in ACM as well. Did all the F-4E's had maneuvering slats? I got the feeling they handle a bit better when slow. Anyway, the problems started when i mounted the gun pods on the F-4 N/J. No matter which pod i used the impact on the performance was significant. When i flew with such a Phantom i used the vertical to offset the turning deficiencies cause by the added drag and weigth of the gunpod. However the AI did no such thing. It kept trying to turn in the horizontal and would soon wind up slow. This resulted in me getting on his six in no more then 2-3 turns. The AI would then give me a good gun defence, but that would only buy him some time. One on one, not much use. As a result i decided to go with the F-4E as a participant for this DACT. I want the AI to give its best.

I had a similar duel with the F-104A F-104C and F-104G. It ends up the F-104C stands out a bit, as it has similar thrust to the F-104Gm but the F-104G is a few 1000 pounds heavier. Fearing that the C might be a bit over modeled, but without a major diference in how the AI was handling them (it was only easier for me when i flew the C), i decided to go with the F-104G. F-104A was not too far behind, but it's radar and fuel capacity was inferior.

In hop 1 i went in the 104, level at angels 10, 25nm from the bogie. At this range you realize the first advantage the F-4 has. Radar. He can lock you up, but you can not. Even at shorter ranges your radar can't burn through his jammer until real close. But this is a WVR fight, so it won't matter. That, and this version of the Phantom has no onboard jammers  . As we close in i let him pass on my left, i roll in and start my turn thoward his tail. I break to 450KIAS and then try to maintain a constant turning rate. I was tempted to keep it above 500KIAS, but fighting the blackouts would have been an issue. I get my nose on quickly, withing my first turn, but he hasn't been idel as well and the aspect is too high. I unload, let him pass across my nose, and then go after him again. I start blaking out, but i manage to get a few degrees on him. I repeat the process (unloading to recover the energy as i don't want to drop bellow the mid 300's in this plane). He gets his nose a bit down to maintain his turn without bleeding off too much energy and i follow him. We spiral down slowlyto abiut 1000ft AGL, and as he has no more altitude to spare, starts climbing back up. Overal a bad idea, as the 104 has superior climb and acceleration. His pull leads to a sudden reversal but he has gotten so slow i feel confident i can make a high deflection shot as a streaks by me. I hose him withe the 20mm and most of the burst connects. I do a 1-80 to reacquite him. He's up there, smoking against the sky. As i prepare to move in after him, he catches flame and explodes midair. Splash one....

Hop 2, the rolls are reversed. I cut this video short and skipped teh first 5-7nm of apporach. I had a good lock right from the start. WE follow the usual left hand pass and turn into each other nost to tail. I follow the same pattern as i did with the 104, but as i was a bit careless, my airspeed went a bit higher and i blacked out during the initial break. I unload for a bit, and start a sustained turn into him. As expected i get my first nose on withing the first turn. These two birds handle in a nearly identical manner as far as sustaining a turn goes. Again i let him pass and then move in after him. But during the second turn the diferences begin to manifest. AS we drop into the mid 300's the F-4 still maintains a good pitch authority, while the 104 starts to "float". I decide to capitalize on the opportunity and cut inside his turn, forcing him to break even more. He starts the downward spiral in order to recove some of the energy but i follow him in, keeping a constant nose threat on him, denying him the chance to unload. As we drop to arround 5-600ft AGL he runs out of space to run and decides to go up. He is a good climber but he started the climb to slow and too low. I have both the speed and the alitude advante when i unload and follow him up. He must have seen my coming and drops his nose left into a desperate dive to avoid my boresight. And it works.... he passes by too close and to fast for me to geta good shot. But i drop after him and gain even more speed in my dive. He starts the same routine, but this time i get my nose to where he wants to go first and saw off his horizontal tail as he passes. I must have sawed off something more, as before i have a chance to get my brearings, he bursts into flames and goes to make big crater in the ground.

Lessons learned. These two planes are fairly similar. Almost identical in fact. As far as turning in clean configuration goes that is. The 104 climbs faster and accelerates faster. This should be used to maximize the energy advantage when ever possible. If you prefer a slower fight, with more turning and burning though, i would recommend you fly the Phantom. It handles much better when slower (don't expect any miracles though). This makes them equal in my eyes. The only reason why i would rate the 104 higher (just a wee bit) is because it is smaller, ligher and more difficult to see. Especially from the front.

Next hops should be 23 VS F-4 and F1 VS 104

[+EricJ 4,248]

That's one of the great thing about the tomcat. I was campaigning earlier and was tasked to do recon. the escorts flying ahead ran into trouble with the enemy aces. My flight ended up rescuing the escorts from being decimated using The AIM-54 to break them up, Huge fuel load to close in supersonic. AIM-7 to eliminate early treats and the winders and guns for sweeping off the rest. Although you have to be careful using the phoenix when there's friendlies around chances of friendly fire is high.

 

I've had situations mainly where 'winders lock onto the wrong heat source and spike a friendly or I'm trying to down an enemy and well... yeah, so I end the mission and be careful next time...

 

If you can see the enemies on the map and look at the radar display you can filter out the enemies from the good guys by looking at your radar and map display and gauging patterns.  It's best when you're in a position to do so rather than "in the thick of it", etc.

[Do335 382]

yeh clear avenue of fire is issue in real life too, amraam shots into furballs or past friendlies are generally forbidden due to possible fratricide.

and wow did this thread explode recently, having some great read here. plz do keep 'em up, and good to see your reports again EricJ. hornit lover here as well btw, sometimes tis a tough life among a post 'top gun' community :p

Edited October 25, 2014 by Do335