SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[saisran 84]

I knew i've seen that pit used on the 21bisD. No wonder the Gunsight was so good.

 

now time to hit the KB for placing cockpits into stock aircraft. manage to find a Mig-21MF pit.

Edited April 12, 2015 by saisran

[saisran 84]

For the last few hours before turning in and getting ready for a busy week ahead. i have decided to put those hours in SF2. So i tried two other Mig-21 model; the MF and the SMF. 

 

 

 

 

The Mission in the MF is in the videos above. This plane is a bit more difficult to fly than the bisD. It has a bit of a slower rate of turn and lower roll rate and i feel like the engine is also weaker. Putting 4 Atolls underneath the wing can also degrade the performance significantly. Situational awareness is a bit of a problem due to a lot of things blocking the view but the periscope mirror was a nice touch by the russians. In the end  i was able to get behind the F-5 and i was able to get the kill on both occasion. 

 

On flying the SMF. Everything was a lot worst. The experience is a bit closer to what EricJ had. Even after getting an earlier advantage by dropping my nose on the merge and getting mach 1, pulling hard and blacking out to allow me swing my plane around faster; i stil wasn't able to capitalize. The F-5 made a well planned evasive maneuver and a reversal on the Scissor due to the poor roll rate of the SMF and poor energy management on my part. For the next 5 mins i was pulling pulling and jerking with everything the plane can give me while the rwr roars through my headphones. He ended up pushing me to fly below 250 knts and i knew from the way i cant pull any higher than 2.5 gs that the Mig doesnt like the slow speed. Pointed my nose down and skimmed the surface a bit trying to get my energy back up. At this point i decided to change the way the fight is being fought. I went vertical at the end of my loop i found the F-5 floating. Unfortunately, the Atolls wont lock and more unfortunately i made the biggest mistake of the fight. I didn't manage the throttle. I was in afterburner for a very very long time and i ran out of fuel just as i get the advantage. 

[+EricJ 4,244]

Don't feel bad, I was burning a lot of fuel too on burner though I had gotten kilt before I could worry about running out , But the second video was pretty much what I was going through though given you got actual shots off (I was going for a stict missile kill) and at 2:46 if you had good AAMs you would have hada  perfect shot holding him ilke that.  And you're definitely a better stick with the Fishbed than I am, at least you got kills though.... Nice work on both though you had a couple goots shots if you had better AAMs though.

Edited April 13, 2015 by EricJ

[saisran 84]

Don't feel bad, I was burning a lot of fuel too on burner though I had gotten kilt before I could worry about running out , But the second video was pretty much what I was going through though given you got actual shots off (I was going for a stict missile kill) and at 2:46 if you had good AAMs you would have hada  perfect shot holding him ilke that.  And you're definitely a better stick with the Fishbed than I am, at least you got kills though.... Nice work on both though you had a couple goots shots if you had better AAMs though.

 

Yeah. I had a couple of moments where i was really happy with the position and was really disappointed with the outcome. Those Atolls are about as reliable as an AIM-9B. It was fun flying a different type of plane; i especially like the thud on those Cannons. :) 

 

I just hope we satisfied the F-21 vs F-5 DACT request. 

[Stratos 3,188]

Yes guys, I'm still trying it, too ashamed to post the results at the moment.

[+EricJ 4,244]

Yeah. I had a couple of moments where i was really happy with the position and was really disappointed with the outcome. Those Atolls are about as reliable as an AIM-9B. It was fun flying a different type of plane; i especially like the thud on those Cannons. :) 

 

I just hope we satisfied the F-21 vs F-5 DACT request. 

 

It is but overall I'm stuck on the Super, though I have been itching to try the Rafales out... I flew the M a couple days ago and I'll have to see how that goes.

 

Finally figured out a reliable way of recording vids, and goes with (though realistically the same engagement of the Super Hornet EPE vs. the Tiger II

 

https://youtu.be/51ZEMERQzbY

 

Much like the text version this one was a little bit slower and it must have been his off day as you can see he wasn't beng as aggressive as I would like.  And finally maneuvering forced him to get somewhat more active though really as I was doing my nails he could have been a better sport, but the video is what it is.

[Caesar 305]

A few days ago I had posted I wished I recorded that 4 v 12.  Well, I just found out that I've had ShadowPlay on my computer since I upgraded the video card, I just never realized it.  So, last night, I took up the 4 v 12 fight again.  This time, every missile worked, which is pretty rare for the missiles of the era, but I still wound up with three gun kills.  One Fishbed got away; I had considered chasing him down, but that would have dragged everything on for a while.  Here's the vid:

 

[+EricJ 4,244]

For some reason ShadowPlay works only with A3 so I have to use FRAPS for SF2... I've tried to get it to recognize (ShadowPlay) SF2 but no luck.. oh well as long as I can still record I don't care.

 

And nice vid as well too.... I just have had bad luck with furballs and heat seekers.... so I shoot, scoot and return to base unless I feel froggy

[Caesar 305]

Eric,

 

ShadowPlay didn't recognize my install either, but I noticed the manual "begin recording" buttons (Alt+F9) will force the program to record whatever.  Give it a shot, it might work for you, too.

[saisran 84]

That was really smooth flying Caesar. You were in control the whole time. I'm almost ashamed of this post as i'm chasing tail for the most part. But, hey it's already up so might as well.

 

F-8J_69 4x AIM -9H vs Croation  Mig-21BisD 2x AIM-9H

 

 

 

Its been quite a long time since i last flew a crusader. For the most part i was trying to figure how how the gunfighter fare against the Mig-21bisD. After a couple of turns one thing is clear; the Croatian is much better and holding energy and turn rate than my Crusader. After that i made several key errors. The most prominent is just me sticking almost exclusively to the horizontal plane. 2nd mistake, is waiting for a radar lock when trying to achieve a gun solution. It takes forever for the Crusaders to get a lock, that its actually better to turn the radar off and compute the lead based on intertia.  And as the fight drags on burning fuel hoping that a lighter plan can even the fight i got bored and allowed my energy to fall. Realizing my mistake i broke off and dashed to gain energy after which i decided to climb in preparation for either a loop or an immelmann. I have commited myself into the loop when i remembered that the Croatian isn't carrying Atolls. It was in fact carrying AIM-9H the same more reliable missile that i as carrying. Realizing my mistake i idled the engine in hopes of not getting rear ended by a winder. having reached the top of my loop i regained vision and true enough, i saw the missile trail with the speeding tip going my way. Luckily it shot past over my jet. Round 2. I decided to forgo getting the gun kill and settle for a winder. After botching two Shot. I was able to get a no miss position and destroyed the Croatian on the 3rd attempt.

 

I remember reading somewhere that due to the placement of the wing; top of the fuselage with the lift centered slightly towards the rear, the Crusader has a tendency to flip and threw burner flames forward instead of aft. What this means is that, the crusader has some real high Alpha. Now the other high alpha jet i can think of is the Hornet.  I would now like to challenge EricJ into taking out the Crusader and compare it with the F-18. :)

Edited April 15, 2015 by saisran

[+EricJ 4,244]

Lol challenge accepted, but I'll see how it goes, and thanks for the tip Caesar as I didnt' think of that....

[+EricJ 4,244]

Me: F/A-18F EPE Block II with 4 x AIM-9X,  6 x AIM-120, gun, tank

Opposition: F-8J Crusader with 4 x AIM-9X, gun

 

No video, because I've been trying to upload a few things for a couple days, long story so only pictures.

 

I had put this off due to sheer laziness (and Arma 3 has taken up quite some time really) but finally got into it with the 'Sader and... I can agree it has a high alpha and quite frankly very maneuverable (I assomed it was more of a rocket than anything comparable to an early model Hornet) but... it's slow. Engagement started off with me rocketing off the deck and intercepting the F-8J.  Once he realized I was there he began to maneuver.  Unlike most which are "Wham ban, thank you ma'am!" Affairs I decided to be lazy and let him work himself out of the kill slot.  Overall the aircraft does handle well and with me putting myself in front of his gunsights (whch he didn't fire for nothing) I entered an energy circle, managed to work myself out of it by going vertical... all the while with my airbrakes extended...  But during the majority of the engagement I was in his kill slot all the time, just seeing if he'd maneuver harder and put up a challenge in this fight.  Honestly I didn't realize this when I worked him out of the energy circle as he maneuvered due to lack of energy and me to slight lack of patience as it was good to feel out the Crusader but overall he didn't get anything off.  Once he extended to come around I locked and fired an AIM-9X, shooting him down.

 

Takeaways:  Honestly the overall impression I get with the Crusader was yes, it's very maneuverable but compared to a more modern aircraft it's slow.  I mean that's the relative feeling I got with the airspeeds, as again letting it fly around and try and get into position of my own didn't present me with the feeling that it would be anytime soon.  So it's a maneuverable jet yes, speedy on the deck yes but against modern aircraft, pack a lunch, eat it and then splash him.  Maybe with more thrust it could be a real winner as far as energy and the momemntum would make it a good opponent against a more modern fighter.

[cougar_1979 37]

That was some intense flying guys. So much that the the "itch" became too much to bare ;)
Finally this evening i got some free time to try out that F-8 VS MiG-21 Bis fight. I went for a 1970 setup, me in an F-8J with 4 AIM-9H's and the MiG in what ever was the Soviet period equivalent.

This is HOP#3. The first two were more of orientational flights, to get a better feel for the Crusader. All three flights were a victory, but i decided to upload #3 because it sort of represents the lessons learned from the first 2.

The short version? This plane likes to fly fast. Now don't get me wrong, with it's superior (for the time) high alpha capability, it can take on the slow fight if needed, but let it build up its energy and see it fly. I recomend keeping it above 400 knots as often as possible. In a way, it's like the Hornet's ancestor. I can see why the early Hornet community came from ex F-8 pilots and why they loved the F-18 so much. The F-18 flies like an F-8 on steroids. Build up your energy, expend, repeat and keep your nose on the enemy at all times. If the bandit bleeds too much, let him and use the vertical, the Bis can't follow. Not when he's down to 250 knots.

Edited April 18, 2015 by cougar_1979

[Caesar 305]

Nice flying, Cougar.  I'd concur that the F-8 was good for its time in terms of slow-speed maneuverability, but it doesn't do as well as fourth-gen fighters.  Generally, I'm better at the slow fight in the F-8 than the F-4.

[cougar_1979 37]

Nice flying, Cougar.  I'd concur that the F-8 was good for its time in terms of slow-speed maneuverability, but it doesn't do as well as fourth-gen fighters.  Generally, I'm better at the slow fight in the F-8 than the F-4.

Yeah, the F-4 becomes quite unweildy when brought in slow. I once saw a side by side comparisson of the F-4 and F-8 lift curves per angle of attack, and the explanations wa sobvious. The F-8 holds an advantage across almost all of the envelope.

[Caesar 305]

Got a bit of time and did a fighter sweep over Yen Bai.  I'm thinking about adjusting some of the missile values for launch reliability and whatnot, since in the current patch, they do seem too effective...

 

 

Didn't get a gun kill this time.  I tried on the last MiG-21, but then I saw the ground getting real big, real fast and broke off the attack.  Had to go up and around and ended the fight with an AIM-9.

[+EricJ 4,244]

Me: F-8J with 4 x AIM-9H, gun

Opposition: F-8J with AIM-9s (1970), gun

 

Decided a SACT (Similar Air Combat Training) mission and for the most part, I suck with the Crusader, though flying around in it made me appreciate the nice lines of the aircraft though.  For the most part I sucked in that aircraft as the AI has better skill in energy management and flies it better than I can.  Not much more to go into other than it got a good angle on me (even with 1970s-era missiles...) and splashed me with a rear shot, shooting me down.

 

Takeaways: Obviously I thought it would be a good fight and I would come out on top but... no.  Handling the 'Sader is a bit trickier as the AI was flying it very gracefully and as Yoda says "Unlearn what you have learned", i.e. I'm used to a good easy jet like the Super Hornet and therefore I didn't get too much practical time in it, or honestly never take the time to fly this particular jet.  Again it's not so much capability, but preference as the Vietnam Era was what it was and that's that and quite frankly don't feel like mastering something in that timeframe.  BUT however, I do need to shoot down a bad guy in it (to same some face at least) so I can learn from my mistakes.  Overall though I felt I was pulling too rough and being more gentle yielded better results as far as maneuvering but agian the AI was all over me and when I was in position, didn't take the shot due to hesitation on whether or not it would connect.  So next time I'll be a bit more confident as it did take a while, but again I took a 'Winder in the butt and yeah, need to learn this one.

[saisran 84]

Me: F-8J with 4 x AIM-9H, gun

Opposition: F-8J with AIM-9s (1970), gun

 

Decided a SACT (Similar Air Combat Training) mission and for the most part, I suck with the Crusader, though flying around in it made me appreciate the nice lines of the aircraft though.  For the most part I sucked in that aircraft as the AI has better skill in energy management and flies it better than I can.  Not much more to go into other than it got a good angle on me (even with 1970s-era missiles...) and splashed me with a rear shot, shooting me down.

 

Takeaways: Obviously I thought it would be a good fight and I would come out on top but... no.  Handling the 'Sader is a bit trickier as the AI was flying it very gracefully and as Yoda says "Unlearn what you have learned", i.e. I'm used to a good easy jet like the Super Hornet and therefore I didn't get too much practical time in it, or honestly never take the time to fly this particular jet.  Again it's not so much capability, but preference as the Vietnam Era was what it was and that's that and quite frankly don't feel like mastering something in that timeframe.  BUT however, I do need to shoot down a bad guy in it (to same some face at least) so I can learn from my mistakes.  Overall though I felt I was pulling too rough and being more gentle yielded better results as far as maneuvering but agian the AI was all over me and when I was in position, didn't take the shot due to hesitation on whether or not it would connect.  So next time I'll be a bit more confident as it did take a while, but again I took a 'Winder in the butt and yeah, need to learn this one.

 

Hi Eric. Try staying as fast as possible. The AI can handle the jet around 150kias while its quite tricky for a player especially if you don't have pedals. In my experience, going ballistic and performing a High yoyo has always yielded a better offensive position and with a 9H you dont need to be piper on target all the time.

 

I haven't been ale to do anything as i'm stuck trying to figure out why my game crashes at times during campaigns. It happened between installing a new driver, activating nvidia shadowplay and installing  a couple of Mig and F-5s

Edited April 28, 2015 by saisran

[+EricJ 4,244]

OKay I did try that (build up speed + Energy, etc.) and still I was used to be able to turn on a dime with the Super so cool will try it out later on then.

[cougar_1979 37]

OKay I did try that (build up speed + Energy, etc.) and still I was used to be able to turn on a dime with the Super so cool will try it out later on then.

Hi Eric. There is one thing i always find helpful when familiarizing with a new jet. If your flight stick supports it, try to tie some kind of feedback to the onset of strong buffet. That way, you can relax the stick much quicker then having to montor airspeed or angle of attack indicators. Even when all out breaking in these earlier jets, i find it much better not to venture too deep in the buffet area. This helps in keeping your energy up and somewhat mitigates the natural isnstinct of pulling on the stick just a wee bit more to get better angle.

 

I hope this helps mate!

Cheers

[+EricJ 4,244]

In all honesty both you and saisran has helped quite a bit as most know earlier gen fighters I use mainly for target practice, etc.  So yeah I was pulling stick way too hard expecting some good high-alfpha maneuvers and... yeah

 

And no help on the card issue saisran, I don't muck with campaigns at all anymore (or much of SF2 other than here of course) so may need to reinstall it? May fix the issue but so far I've noticed freezups when recording that regardless of outcome I never save.

[cougar_1979 37]

Just a quicky here guys, as don't have any interesting flights to report. I did practice and experiment with heads-on approaches with heat seaking missiles. And though i can't confirm or deny if nozzle temperature is modeled in sim, i think i can confirm that exhaust is. On about a dozen separate merges, with and without AB engaged, it seams the enemy managed to get an earlier lock from the front when ever i had my cans lit durning the final 5-8 miles and vice versa. Can anyone confirm this?

[Caesar 305]

I'll have to run some tests, but you might be right; at military power I don't usually get shot at as quickly.  I do seem to have more success with flares if I pull the engines out of afterburner as well.

[+EricJ 4,244]

I still have to do that Super Hornet vs. Rafale fight... been putting it off...

[+EricJ 4,244]

Me: F/A-18F EPE Block II with 4 x AIM-9X, 6 x AIM-120D, gun, tank

Opposition: Rafale M F3 with IR and Radar MICA

 

Bout 1:

 

Bout 1 started fairly typical, me coming from behind and entered in a very quick energy circle.  I can say that the FM of the Rafale isn't UFO-like, it's just very good at the knife-fight turns.  So I decided that this wasn't going to be easy (and didn't expect it to be really) and I'd have to work for this kill.  I decided to go vertical and lost him visually (small plane) and therefore didn't know his real position even though I had the padlock going.  From what I think happened he simply managed to pull his nose on me quicker than expected and managed to spike me with a MICA IR in the face... 

 

Bout 2:

 

Same setup before and had to well... get a 1/1 streak anyway, so learning from my mistake I entered the same energy circle, this time not using burners but using the agility of the Super Hornet to it's advantage, keeping my turns smaller but still keeping the burner going when needed.  At the start by doing this I managed to try and "cut off" the Rafale from maintaining a circle and evading me and opening him up for me to take a shot.  Well after nearly blacking out (again) I managed to stay with him for both (mindful that going vertical wouldn't be a good thing against this aircraft).  Afrer the second circle he got a bit tired of it and tried to extend and come around.  At this point I decided to take a shot (really good position for one, why not take it?) and so one 9X left the rail and shot him down.  Also a reminder to keep ready to manever should your missile not connect.  Having already figured it out from beforehand kept me ready for maneuveirng as he ejected flares and failed to decoy the missile.

 

Takeaways:  The Rafale isn't a joke and you need to keep and maintain the energy fight as much as possible as well as keeping an eye on him and what he's doing and you need to be aggressive iwith it  You may black out ("Lose sight, lose the fight") but using the padlock feature is highly recommended as without it the small size of the aircraft makes it harder to spot after a mile or two.  Aggressively work him into your favored position, keep him out of a firing postion (don't discount the MICA's ability with JAT81500's updates!) and you'll be okay.  Again Energy, Energy, Energy as it's a very high energy fighter and coming at always with full burner to maintain isn't always the best option, as it'll make you black out pretty fast as you try to compensate for it's maneuverabilty i a knife fight.  Keep the burner ready as you'll need to gain advantage but sometimes taking it easy in the knife fight will keep you alive as you can have some to maneuver him away from shooting you.  Again the MICAs are much better than previously (as evidenced by taking one in the face) so the newer versions by JAT81500s give it some teeth.  And I'd highly recommend anything that has both high alpha (not so muich the Hornets but...) and push to maneuver, so an experenced Tomcat driver shouldn't have any issues when dealing with this fighter.  It's a good aircraft and shouldn't be taken lightly when its your opponent in the WVR fight.  And again be aggressive with it as the AI is very aggressive with this aircraft.  Overall don't take i lightly.