OT - Another Disaster

[Typhoon 5]

Was just watching the pictures of the tsunami from Japan on CNN. They were saying that at 8.9 this is the seventh largest earthquake ever. This has been quite the year for disasters around the globe. I hope that the people living in the coastal areas had enough warning to evacuate to higher ground. There are tsunami warnings for as far away as Hawaii, and Australia. It seems that Mother Nature is on a rampage this year.

 

Tony

[Davy TASB 0]

OMFG...

Watching people driving in their cars being enveloped by the f*cking waves.

 

This will kill thousands.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Davy TASB

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

The Planet fights back

[von Baur 54]

I was five miles or so from the epicenter of the Northridge earthquake in 1994. This was 50 to 100 times as strong and I've heard reports that the shaking went on for several minutes. That alone would have been terrifying enough, but the real devastation was the resultant tsunami. Aboslutely incredible.

[Olham 164]

Every now and then, we have to experience, how small we are; how fragile our health, our life.

Carpe diem, everyone.

[tranquillo 10]

Everytime Man ( not me) suffers a Disaster of this Magnitude, I think of this routine

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eScDfYzMEEw

 

Just my opinion, but I think George Carlin is a moron.

[Hasse Wind 46]

No matter how advanced our technologies and societies are, when the forces of Nature decide to wreak havoc, we are all weak and helpless against them. Fortunately it seems that the nuclear plant at Fukushima hasn't suffered a complete meltdown. We don't need a new Chernobyl. I hope none of our OFFers have suffered from the events at Japan.

[Olham 164]

Not yet, Hasse Wind.

The reactor can melt down any time, when they cannot build a circuit with sea water.

Then it will explode.

[Bullethead 12]

Carpe diem...

 

...quam minime credula postero.

 

Mors venit velociter quæ neminem veretur

Omnia mors perimit et nulli miseretur

I hate to say it, but I'll bet a case of beer that within a year, Al Gore will be saying that this was somehow the result of human impact on the planet..... Seriously, that guy totally underestimates the extent of Mother Earth's mood swings.

[Olham 164]

Alright - I shouldn't use Latin phrases, when I can't read any Latin really:

would you translate your lines, Bullethead? Didn't have Latin in school.

 

That video UncleAl posted might be your cup of rum - did you see it?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Olham, Bullethead's first quote is the remainder of the line you quoted:

 

Seize the day, trusting as little as possible in the future.

 

His second quote is from some several hundred year old poem or song, (not a clue which one), and translate to the following, (more or less):

 

Death comes quickly, respecting no one.

Death destroys everything, taking pity on no one.

 

And I agree with the above comments about the power of Mother Nature and our own true heplessness against her. When she decides we are through as a species, we are through.

 

Pray for the folks in Japan and indeed for us all. Life is short, make hay while the sun shines.

 

Lou

 

.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Looks like the situation at the Fukushima nuclear power plant is not over yet. Another reactor is in danger of exploding.

[Olham 164]

How could it be over?

All 4 reactor blocks need cooling.

The power supply units are destroyed by the Tsunami.

The emergency batteries are running down.

The worst scenario is becoming more and more likely: that all 4 reactor cores will melt down and explode.

 

So much for human safety standards.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Japan consumes half the content of the sea, now the sea has consumed half the content of Japan.

 

Karma?

[Hasse Wind 46]

I hope modern safety standards are much better than what they had in the 60's and 70's when those reactors were built. I'm surprised that the Japanese, who are usually known for their high quality standards and excellent work morale, have nuclear power plants with such inadequate safety methods.

 

There's a big new nuclear plant under construction in Finland currently. These events in Japan have made me again wonder about the benefits and risks of nuclear power. Of course we don't have earthquakes and tsunamis here, fortunately, and the company doing the construction has said that the plant will have the most advanced technology available everywhere in the world. But still, if something does go wrong with nuclear power, the result is not pretty.

[Olham 164]

The nuklear power plants in Germany are always said to be necessary,

cause they do produce about 20 % of Germany's total power production.

What they do not say is, that Germany is selling power to it's neighbouring countries.

20 % of Germany's whole production go to France.

So it is not necessary for Germany - it is just a big business deal.

 

Finnland may be one of the safest places to build them.

But I hope the world will at least learn so much from the Japanese disaster,

that they add a lot more safety for the worst scenario cases.

 

We must be aware - we are trying to handle the most dangerous and long lasting poison.

I have read, that only the small amount of 300 gramm Plutonium fine dust spread all over

the world, would be enough to cause the whole of mankind to get lung cancer.

The half-life of Plutonium 239 is 24.000 years.

That means, that it will only decay to half in 24.000 years.

 

Pluto was the Greek god of the underworld, by the way.

The humour - or the awareness - of the scientists...

[+Polovski 460]

Terrible what is going on there and I hope the Japanese people get all the help they need.

 

One thing though considering they are sitting on a major fault in the earth and it is called the "Ring of Fire" as a hint, and given they have smaller quakes often, you would think they would have lots of backups for coolant stored in other locations, offshore, underground larger battery supplies or pumping facilities etc whaytever it takes. Nuts. Even without that quake threat there needs to be lots more backup facilities for reactors with other threats around.

[Bullethead 12]

We must be aware - we are trying to handle the most dangerous and long lasting poison.

I have read, that only the small amount of 300 gramm Plutonium fine dust spread all over

the world, would be enough to cause the whole of mankind to get lung cancer.

The half-life of Plutonium 239 is 24.000 years.

That means, that it will only decay to half in 24.000 years.

 

This is all true. HOWEVER, you CAN handle this stuff safely and that seems to be what's happening in Japan.

 

As I understand the situation, the Japanese reactors are built with multiple layers of very, very solid steel and concrete around the core, as they are in other sane countries. It's not like Chernoble, where this was most definitely not the case. The sane type of containment works. 3 Mile Island totally melted down in a worst-case scenario, but the fuel and its poisons were contained within the containment vessel. All that got out was a little bit of slightly radioactive steam, about the same as spending several more days in the sunshine than you normally would. And that seems to be what's happening in Japan. So I think it's pretty much impossible for the Japanese plants to become massive radioactive volcanos like Chernoble did.

 

3 Mile Island was essentially a non-event in terms of radiation release. Yet it was blown all out of proportion to the point that the US quit building nuclear power plants for 30 years, to our current disadvantage. I'm afraid the same will happen with the Japanese plants, which is a real shame because nuclear energy really is the greenest thing we've got.

[Olham 164]

HOWEVER, you CAN handle this stuff safely and that seems to be what's happening in Japan.

That is exactly what they are NOT showing.

They are showing that they are pretty helpless with what they have now.

And they have been showing before, that they were pig ignorant to the well known facts,

that a Tsunami in that region after a heavy earthquake would be 10 - 12 Meter high.

They have shown, that man is NOT capable to deal with such a dangerous power.

 

...I think it's pretty much impossible for the Japanese plants to become massive radioactive volcanos like Chernoble did.

I have just seen an interview with a professor for nuclear technology from Munich, Germany.

He said, that the attempt to cool the reactor with sea water may very well lead to an explosion of the reactor.

He said, that it is very likely, that all 4 reactors will melt down, and possibly blow up then.

In that case, an area of at least 200 kilometers around the power plant - better would be 400 km - should be evacuated.

This is not likely to be possible - Tokio is within the 200-km-range. See the picture below.

 

... nuclear energy really is the greenest thing we've got.

It could - perhaps - be that, if it was in the right hands.

That means: NOT in the hands of businessmen and politicians.

Plutonium power plants are the most dangerous things to build for producing energy.

 

The "greenest things" are:

- to use less energy

- the full use of solar power (most effectively possible in deserts)

- the additional use of wind power

 

But I am afraid, that this will not be done, before the businessmen haven't used up

all other ways of producing energy.

I speculate, why: wind and sun could be claimed by all people to be FREE energies.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2011 by Olham

[Bullethead 12]

They have shown, that man is NOT capable to deal with such a dangerous power.

 

Well, it's either that or turn out the lights, everywhere. Oil, coal, and natural gas are finite and becoming prohibitively expensive, besides whatever pollution issues they have. Biodiesel, ethanol, and the like are in the same boat, PLUS are WAY less efficient than what we've been using. That's why we've been drinking ethanol and fueling our cars with gasoline all these years--that's what those products do best. Solar, wind, whatever, will always be merely feel-good things which are actually net losses economically and cannot be made to ever produce more than an insignificant amount of the world's energy needs.

 

I rather enjoy having electricity, primarily because I'd sure miss conversing with everybody here if I didn't have it. Otherwise, I can do without it. After all, I'm a modernday caveman in my spare time. But I'm also an engineer and an realist. So nuke power is the only way to go for the foreseeable future, if you want to maintain your current standard of living.

 

I have just seen an interview with a professor for nuclear technology from Munich, Germany.

He said, that the attempt to cool the reactor with sea water may very well lead to an explosion of the reactor.

He said, that it is very likely, that all 4 reactors will melt down, and possibly blow up then.

In that case, an area of at least 200 kilometers around the power plant - better would be 400 km - should be evacuated.

This is not likely to be possible - Tokio is within the 200-km-range. See the picture below.

 

The media coverage of this event is like a civil law suit in the US that hinges on some technical issue. You have "expert witnesses" on both sides, all of whom have seemingly unimpeachable credentials, such as multiple college degrees in arcane fields most people haven't even heard of, much less have any understanding of. Yet the experts on each side always come to diametrically opposed conclusions based on the exact same data. Why? Because all true technical experts are whores. They've devoted their lives to specializing in some obscure field only to discover that they can only barely pay the rent on their salaries, and their salaries are much in doubt because they depend on government largess, tenture, and all that. So they start by selling out to the powers that have control over their paychecks. That establishes them well and truly in whoredom. Then there are a few of them who have friends who are lawyers. Those technical experts soon learn they can make WAY more money being an "expert witness" for their friend, construing any given data set to bolster his side of the case. Professional ethical standards go out the window (after all, if you're a lawyer or have one as a friend, you by definition have no ethics), peer review doesn't apply, so the sky's the limit. Nobody on the jury, and certainly neither the non-technical judge nor opposing lawyer, know what they're talking about at all.

 

NOTE: The above was said by a currently licensed (but non-practicing) attorney of the State of Texas, who also has a degree in engineering and has several friends who are practicing lawyers. I've also been an "expert witness" a couple times. IOW, I have zero ethics, so never trust what I say. I'm only marginally less loathsome than a politician. But it takes a thief to catch a thief. All that said, however, I'm not involved in the current case so have no financial reason to lie.

 

It could - perhaps - be that, if it was in the right hands.

That means: NOT in the hands of businessmen and politicians.

 

Hmm.... If you rule out businessmen, then you rule out the private sector. If you rule out policians (always a good idea), you rule out the public sector. So who's left to run the show?

 

Plutonium power plants are the most dangerous things to build for producing energy.

 

I disagree. Sure, plutonium itself is quite nasty. It's highly toxic just sitting there and you can make city-killing bombs out of it. But the odds of any of that getting loose from a sanely contained reactor are quite remote. After all, the reactors were designed to contain total meltdowns. Yes, they'll have to vent some irradiated steam, but that's nowhere near the same thing as spewing plutonium.

 

OTOH, how many people die each year as a direct result of gasoline? This includes not only those killed in pipeline explosions in Nigeria, but also all the highway deaths (about 30-40K per year in the US alone), plus stupid kids huffing it, refinery workers getting cancer, you name it.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

A lot of people poo poo the idea of Green Energy (mainly the Oil companies, cos they can see their big fat cat profits going out the Window)....But green technology is coming on in leaps and bounds these days...I foresee a World where there will be no Nuclear Power...or Oil.. Or Coal......It's still a long way off, and Nuclear will have to fill the gap when the Fossil Fuels run out....but it will happen.

 

Sustainable energy is the future....Sooner rather than later I hope!.... A few years ago, the idea of Green Fuel was thought to be the Domain of Tree Hugging Hippy Types....But it is now a true Science

[Olham 164]

Bullethead, if we condense the whole debate, we can cut it down to this:

We want the luxury of having an electric dishwasher, a washing machine, a microwave and a coffee machine etc. etc.

A luxury even the old kings and lords never had.

And therefor, we must either come up with a clean and healthy solution - or go under in a poised world.

Sheer Darwinism. I think, you can agree on that?

[Hasse Wind 46]

It's not realistic to think that we could somehow turn back the clock and return to a technologically less advanced world. I know I wouldn't want to do that. Progress is the only option, so it must be accepted that we can't live without powerful sources of energy. We have no choice but to keep using nuclear plants until something better is invented and put into use everywhere in the world. I remember reading about fusion energy years ago. That would be the best solution - to produce energy like the stars. But unfortunately it seems that it's going to take at least decades, probably longer, until fusion energy can solve any of our problems. Not every corner of the planet can be covered with solar panels and wind turbines (the latter look absolutely horrible and ruin the scenery, in addition to being rather weak and unreliable - my personal opinion). Coal and oil are not very good options either, so like it or not, nuclear power in its current form is our best choice, and will be for some time to come.

 

The problems at the Japanese nuclear plant didn't come as a complete surprise to the specialists. For some reason (money?), the Japanese have been unwilling to improve the safety mechanisms in their old plants. This is now the terrible outcome of that unwillingness to change old ways of doing and thinking. A tragic situation, indeed.

[Bullethead 12]

It's not realistic to think that we could somehow turn back the clock and return to a technologically less advanced world.

 

That's quite true. Most people these days can't survive without their local grocery store. No modern city can support itself--it relies entirely on imports from all over the world. Right now, humanity is good at moving goods from supply to demand, but when it becomes too expensive to ship goods, cities will starve. So, when civilization crashes, we'll have a few billion surplus people starving and whose only survival option will be brigandage. That will make things quite exciting unitl they starve or run out of ammo, leaving just those who can fend for themselves and live in (and can defend) a place where they can do so.

 

We have no choice but to keep using nuclear plants until something better is invented and put into use everywhere in he world. I remember reading about fusion energy years ago. That would be the best solution - to produce energy like the stars. But unfortunately it seems that it's going to take at least decades, probably longer, until fusion energy can solve any of our problems.

 

I was reading recently that achieving the fusion reaction itself is no longer the problem. The problem now is being able to get the energy out of the reactor in useful form. We just don't currently have the materials that can stand up to prolonged exposure to the sun's core. I'm hoping nanotech will help there.

[Olham 164]

That's quite true. Most people these days can't survive without their local grocery store.

No problem. The world was a modern world already at Jesus' time.

They had not only groceries, but also bakers, bath houses, hospitals, international trade, etc.

To reduce our absolutely greedy waste of energy would NOT mean to drop back to stone age.