Where to start for combat fighter training?

[chris2002rocklin 0]

I used to play Falcon 3 and Falcon 4 "instant action" because I really got the computer and games for my son (in 1994, now he's in the Marines in Afghanistan) and I hadn't touched any games at all since last decade. I have some tech experience, and I found myself working in a massive history project and decided to pull together some video material for evidence to support these narratives. I am working on an analysis of the risks to western civilization posed by collectivist ideology. The Cold War and poor handling of multicultural training during the cold war have led to many people being uneducated about crucial facts that are needed to properly evaluate ones elected political leaders.

 

 

One of the problems I am having is that people seem to need video to learn the importance of some events. I find that since gun cameras became ubiquitous in NATO war planes, most people have a good sense of the wars starting from June 5 1967. The problem is that this day is seen as evidence that Israel is an aggressive land-grabbing nation. They seem to think all of the problems in the middle east began on that day. It reminds me of my little sister who started her narratives from the moment after I blocked her punches. If you have a whiny voice, it even works for a while.

 

 

This led me to put together as much material as I could gather about persecution in the middle east and western nations from as far back as I could go.

 

I have lots of material but I want to add illustrations of some kind for the 1948 war for independence, and the Suez Crisis. Having seen History Channel's Dogfights series, I warmed up to the idea of doing a limited version of maybe at most 2 minutes of the Suez war, mostly using the POV of a jet and or a helicopter just to support the narrative.

 

I also thought of illustrating some of the terror incidents too, but I haven't gotten that far. I think if I can get people to reboot their critical dates to examine history from where it actually began, that I will accomplish my goal.

 

I looked on youtube to see which games had graphics that I thought I could work with, and Strike Fighters 2 Israel seemed perfect. I also like the looks of Lockon, but I wanted to start with SF2 because I know they have the terrain.

 

 

I don't know where to go from here. I bought MS FSX so learn to fly more realistically and I can control the plane, and land, things like that. I need to learn how to build a mission and then maybe bomb some targets and complete an entire theoretical mission.

 

I don't know how to find the help files or instructions to teach myself how to fly and set up missions in Strike Fighters 2. I once bought a Falcon 4 manual for my son, but I don't know where it is. What is the best source for its equivalent for someone wanting to learn without having anyone to teach me?

 

Thanks!

 

Chris

[Slartibartfast 153]

First off welcome to the madness... and good luck to your son...

 

To start I would say you could do no wrong and try Strike Fighters 2 with the Israeli Expansion. Also there is a thriving modding community here and they produce some wonderful addon's and are still doing so. It's sim-lite so you don't have to worry too much about the avionics and can concentrate on the dogfighting etc Lockon requires you to learn a lot about avionics etc to get the most from it...

Edited March 12, 2011 by Slartibartfast

[FastCargo 412]

Chris,

 

First, it sounds like you are at least somewhat familiar with flying in general (since at one point you used to play Falcon 3/4), so this will help a lot.

 

Second, use FSX to get familiar again with flying...it has excellent tutorials on how aircraft work. This will help you get familiar with how an aircraft handles.

 

Third, I would recommend sticking with the stock sim...you can either use WOI with it's expansion pack or SF2:I with it's expansion pack, both will work with WinXP/Vista/7. SF2:I brings more eye candy and AI improvements to the table, but for your purposes, WOI with the expansion pack may be all you need. I would also stay away from modding at the moment, until you get familiar with the sim.

 

The expansion packs add the Suez crisis to the WOI/SF2:I period of flying, which may be what you need for historical reference.

 

As far as flying and fighting, there are tons of references out there and it can get confusing. WOI/SF2:I come with PDF manuals, but they will mainly concern themselves with basic operations and weapons employment.

 

Probably the best way to start out is Google the term 'air combat maneuvering' and go from there.

 

FC

[Faust_ 1]

ummm that is a interesting topics because there is really few ways to introduce a new person to air-to-air fighter combat training in a compact, comprehensively manner...

 

generally, if somebody can't get a "real" flying instructor, like in the real world, most of the process is more or less a self-learning one...

 

and one of the cornerstone of the self-learning is a strong interest, motivation and self-commitment in a long term...

 

the mayority of the flight simmers found that interest a so on in the lieu of hobby, passion from aviation or military aircraft, thats

as any hobby, demands a lot of time to dominate it.

 

of course, could have a more straight, focused way to learn the matter, but as I said, there is few resources available in a comprehensively way.

 

i found, that the training course of Falcon4 the best direct course to learn to fight in a air combat simulation, but the problems is that you learn the basics to fly and fight in the F-16 with his avionics (HUD, radar, missiles, INS, etc) a little more diferent in a 50s or 60s jet, luckily, the Strike Fighter series is more flexible and no so hard to transition it as would be in the real world or a hardcore mid-50s jet flight sim.

 

so, maybe the "long list" of steps to learn all-the-way from "0" to mastery the dominance the virtual skys by force is:

 

->take the training course of Microsoft Flight Simmulator series as basic training and knowledge (the ground school and flight lessons up to private pilot and IFR course)

 

->jump to falcon4 and take the training course built in the game

 

->read some books and e-books like "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" of Robert Shaw and "IN PURSUIT

A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat" by Johan Kylander (there are more good books related)

 

->take on the Strike fighter series and learn to use it the game, like make personal missions and basic modding.

 

->read good resources on internet regard to learn tactics of Air-to-Air combat in the Strike Fighter series like the ones in simHQ.com am combatsim.com

 

->read and ask in community knowledge forums like this and the thirdwire forum

 

->make our own training missions in strike fighter of the aircraft of your choice, for example the MirageIIICJ of the IDF/AF

 

for example, to learn to fly in the F-101A Voodoo in strike Fighter, I made this set of missions:

Flight1: TakeOff-basic handling(climbs-turn-dive)-landing

Flight2: Basics aerobatic (rolls, barrel roll, loop, immelmann, split-S)

Flight3: performance test (low alt maxspeed, hi alt maxspeed, ceiling, climb rate, fuel flow)

Flight4: navigation

Flight5: nightflight

Flight6: stall/spin recovery (stall, deep stall, spin, inverted spin)

Flight7: avanced handling (chandelle, yo-yos, highspeed maxturning, lowspeed maxturning, corner speed turning)

Flight8: Formation flight (in wingman position)

 

to learn to fight in the F-100 Super Sabre, I made this set of missions:

Flight1: air-to-air gunnery (shoot a maneuvering target)

Flight2: AIM-9 sidewinder weapon employment

Flight3: BFM 1-vs-1 (dogfight)

Flight4: ACM 2-vs-2 (melee)

 

in the air-to-ground missions:

Flight1: gun strafing

Flight2: rockets attacks

Flight3: dumb bombs dive bombing

Flight4: dumb bombs level bombing

 

in that point, just remain to learn about to managing your AI wingman and about of the missions (CAP, CAS, Strike) objetives and goals.

 

 

the "short" way, may be, if somebody know to fly things already:

->read the game's manual

-> get in the "instant Action" in Strike fighter series in easy mode and start to shooting up things and get shot.

->when you realized more or less how the things works, the do's and don'ts, start to play single missions.

->when the single missions runs out, play a built-in campaing.

->next, enter in the knowledge base in the combatAce.com (no far from here) and start reading an trying in "basic modding", "intermediate modding"

->if you are still interesting, Start to play un hard mode and play with online people.

 

I hope that you stuck in combat flight simmulations!

the more, the merrier

[chris2002rocklin 0]

Great stuff! I've done the first 20 missions in FSX, and I have a used Saitek X45 on the way from an ebayer (the Saitek AV8R has clumsy throttle locations) and I got my first gun kill in a Strike Fighters 2 mission, but I need to figure out how to select missiles, just the mundane stuff that I guess I will write notes on my impediment and then search, etc, groping in the dark.

 

Someone could probably put together a coherent kit for fighter training, a brief generic version of the Falcon 4 manual. I need to find that thing...I think I won't mind which plane I learn on, because I want to be able to lean any of the western fighters, and flying Russian planes would be cool too.

 

Thanks for the lists, I'll keep reading.

 

 

 

 

ummm that is a interesting topics because there is really few ways to introduce a new person to air-to-air fighter combat training in a compact, comprehensively manner...

 

generally, if somebody can't get a "real" flying instructor, like in the real world, most of the process is more or less a self-learning one...

 

and one of the cornerstone of the self-learning is a strong interest, motivation and self-commitment in a long term...

 

the mayority of the flight simmers found that interest a so on in the lieu of hobby, passion from aviation or military aircraft, thats

as any hobby, demands a lot of time to dominate it.

 

of course, could have a more straight, focused way to learn the matter, but as I said, there is few resources available in a comprehensively way.

 

i found, that the training course of Falcon4 the best direct course to learn to fight in a air combat simulation, but the problems is that you learn the basics to fly and fight in the F-16 with his avionics (HUD, radar, missiles, INS, etc) a little more diferent in a 50s or 60s jet, luckily, the Strike Fighter series is more flexible and no so hard to transition it as would be in the real world or a hardcore mid-50s jet flight sim.

 

so, maybe the "long list" of steps to learn all-the-way from "0" to mastery the dominance the virtual skys by force is:

 

->take the training course of Microsoft Flight Simmulator series as basic training and knowledge (the ground school and flight lessons up to private pilot and IFR course)

 

->jump to falcon4 and take the training course built in the game

 

->read some books and e-books like "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" of Robert Shaw and "IN PURSUIT

A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat" by Johan Kylander (there are more good books related)

 

->take on the Strike fighter series and learn to use it the game, like make personal missions and basic modding.

 

->read good resources on internet regard to learn tactics of Air-to-Air combat in the Strike Fighter series like the ones in simHQ.com am combatsim.com

 

->read and ask in community knowledge forums like this and the thirdwire forum

 

->make our own training missions in strike fighter of the aircraft of your choice, for example the MirageIIICJ of the IDF/AF

 

for example, to learn to fly in the F-101A Voodoo in strike Fighter, I made this set of missions:

Flight1: TakeOff-basic handling(climbs-turn-dive)-landing

Flight2: Basics aerobatic (rolls, barrel roll, loop, immelmann, split-S)

Flight3: performance test (low alt maxspeed, hi alt maxspeed, ceiling, climb rate, fuel flow)

Flight4: navigation

Flight5: nightflight

Flight6: stall/spin recovery (stall, deep stall, spin, inverted spin)

Flight7: avanced handling (chandelle, yo-yos, highspeed maxturning, lowspeed maxturning, corner speed turning)

Flight8: Formation flight (in wingman position)

 

to learn to fight in the F-100 Super Sabre, I made this set of missions:

Flight1: air-to-air gunnery (shoot a maneuvering target)

Flight2: AIM-9 sidewinder weapon employment

Flight3: BFM 1-vs-1 (dogfight)

Flight4: ACM 2-vs-2 (melee)

 

in the air-to-ground missions:

Flight1: gun strafing

Flight2: rockets attacks

Flight3: dumb bombs dive bombing

Flight4: dumb bombs level bombing

 

in that point, just remain to learn about to managing your AI wingman and about of the missions (CAP, CAS, Strike) objetives and goals.

 

 

the "short" way, may be, if somebody know to fly things already:

->read the game's manual

-> get in the "instant Action" in Strike fighter series in easy mode and start to shooting up things and get shot.

->when you realized more or less how the things works, the do's and don'ts, start to play single missions.

->when the single missions runs out, play a built-in campaing.

->next, enter in the knowledge base in the combatAce.com (no far from here) and start reading an trying in "basic modding", "intermediate modding"

->if you are still interesting, Start to play un hard mode and play with online people.

 

I hope that you stuck in combat flight simmulations!

the more, the merrier

[chris2002rocklin 0]

You guys are great! Those are excellent suggestions. I think some of my difficulty is not realizing that with the pixel resolution so fine, that I am really needing to get my glasses fixed! I can't easily read the gauges at 1920*1200. I must have been used to VGA or SVGA at best, and my eyes were also in better shape.

 

So the instruments in the cockpit more more detailed, and the game display has less info. I see that there is enough info to learn to fly by relying on the key charts and the real-world performance of the gear.

 

I got a used X45 rig, and man that thing is so cool. I read a review of the X45, X52 and X65, plus the 2 Thrustmaster HOTAS products, and for $82, the X52 seems so cheap! So when I saw that I needed hands on the throttle to fly effectively, I thought I should test to make sure it was worth spending the money on a nice system. The X45 has no support documents on Saitek's web site and lots of sellers are selling "as is." I just couldn't believe that a HOTAS rig that lights up fine would not be worth at least $25 even if one was bad, my prediction was that if there was any problem, it was mostly likely the hardware configurations.

 

Once I dug around, and I verified on Windows compatibility page that they link to Saitek after affirming Win7 64-bit, but it dumps you to the pages with all of the drivers. What they did was place new products in a sort by division "pro flight" and then categories for other accessories like mice, webcams etc. But I then found another way to choose by type, and they had joysticks all lumped together for any product with X-Y axis. They did have drivers specific to the model, OS and 64-bit variant. What's more is that the current driver is far superior to the previous drivers when the product was current. It has the entire feature set you'd expect.

 

If anyone is having troulbe with X45 or wants to grab a set off ebay, prices might go up if people start finding out about this.

 

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

 

Right now, I am reading up on mods and various add-on thirdwire products to get me as close to Suez Crisis of 1956 as possible. I will build an XP machine if I have to, but I want to see how far I can go with Win7. I assume the extra RAM helps performance. I use 10GB.

 

I'd like to ask one other question, or make that 2 as I have a suggestion question too.

 

What products will also get more flexible mission build editors, or any kind of tools to help my reenactment?

 

Second, I notice that my X45 rig has 3 8-way hi-hats (that is a drum type, I forgot what they are called in Joystick..top hats?), 2 rotary pots with center indent. a 3-position slider (not counting the 3-position slider for modes) and sever extra buttons and triggers.

 

My suggestion is to have a thread with veterans sharing some of their suggested HOTAS configurations. It seems like something that experience will inform much better than a newb who brainstorms it alone, and I would think it would be hard to unlearn later when I realize how stupid my original config was!

 

Some of the ideas I have are to use the mode switch to segregate the target type (ground and air) since I have 2 trigger, allowing me to assign one to the canon, thereby allowing me to leave my other weapon cycle to remain on missiles or A2G. But I also had an idea that if I learn more about RADAR, I might want to use modes for that, which if I understand correctly can do both? I think the Saitek software has extensive macro support, but would this be advisable?

 

As I collect my training answers from you guys, I want to include some notes on that, and actually all of the advice here with my exhortation to get the HOTAS(!), and I hope some suggestions for configurations. I am also looking in to simple DIY ideas, not look the amazing instrument replications I have seen, but maybe something very basic like a dedicated keyboard so that I can assign macros to only that keyboard rather than ANY connected keyboard. If not a keyboard, some other affordable controller to allow customizing it. I saw a keyboard template somewhere, so at least I have a good leg up thanks to all of you guys.

 

The page for Saitek drivers is here; http://www.saitek.com/uk/down/drivers.php and the left side has "range" but only seems to have current products, while the right side has "type" with X45 being under joystick (not Pro Flight, even though newer HOTAS rigs are there). The server scripts are buggy and take several minutes between the selection and presenting the next pull-down menu, but eventually you will get there. If it is really bad, I have X45 64-bit plus the Profile Editor that works on all of their products. Today it works great though (I wrote them so maybe they fixed it).

 

Thanks again guys!

 

Another PS; I got Lock-on Flaming Cliffs 2 bundle and I have a terrible time with configuring my controls. It also does strange stuff with multi-monitor where you have to have the window in focus for controls to work. It's also as resource-dependent as FSX if not more so.

[chris2002rocklin 0]

First off welcome to the madness... and good luck to your son...

 

 

 

Thank you. I hope he'll be back by summer, but things in that whole region seem to me more likely to get much worse than better. Syria and Saudi Arabia might go too, and who knows what Iran will do?

 

 

To start I would say you could do no wrong and try Strike Fighters 2 with the Israeli Expansion. Also there is a thriving modding community here and they produce some wonderful addon's and are still doing so. It's sim-lite so you don't have to worry too much about the avionics and can concentrate on the dogfighting etc Lockon requires you to learn a lot about avionics etc to get the most from it...

 

I got SF2 Israel, and I was never quite sure if that is different from getting the expansion pack. I want to buy the expansion pack as soon as I am sure I don't have it already.

 

Thanks again, Chris

[chris2002rocklin 0]

Chris,

 

First, it sounds like you are at least somewhat familiar with flying in general (since at one point you used to play Falcon 3/4), so this will help a lot.

 

Second, use FSX to get familiar again with flying...it has excellent tutorials on how aircraft work. This will help you get familiar with how an aircraft handles.

 

"Use FSX" - Check! I got up to the 10th training mission without a separate throttle (I had a Saitek AV8R01 at first) and now since I got the X45 I can't get all the way through the 11th training mission with the chopper. It seems to be so peaky, all of the change occurs with the throttle right in there between 50% and 60% of the Z-axis.

 

 

Third, I would recommend sticking with the stock sim...you can either use WOI with it's expansion pack or SF2:I with it's expansion pack, both will work with WinXP/Vista/7. SF2:I brings more eye candy and AI improvements to the table, but for your purposes, WOI with the expansion pack may be all you need. I would also stay away from modding at the moment, until you get familiar with the sim.

 

The expansion packs add the Suez crisis to the WOI/SF2:I period of flying, which may be what you need for historical reference.

 

 

 

Ok, that is what I needed to verify. What really confused me was that every article I read referenced various things, but a lot of it left me wondering what precisely were my choices. I think at one point it looked like I needed SF1 to get Suez, which meant I need to build a dedicated machine for it.

 

 

As far as flying and fighting, there are tons of references out there and it can get confusing. WOI/SF2:I come with PDF manuals, but they will mainly concern themselves with basic operations and weapons employment.

 

Probably the best way to start out is Google the term 'air combat maneuvering' and go from there.

 

FC

 

I'm starting to find more stuff here and there, and with the help from this thread, I think I am getting to where I need to go. If I can find my old Falcon 4 manual, I want to use that as a guide. I also want to see if there are vets who have suggestions for HOTAS configuration. I get the impression that you almost need to add these additional I/O devices as you add more realism to the flight model. How can anyone dogfight without a throttle axis?

 

 

 

Thank you for your help!

[SopmodMikeFour 4]

This is not an advertisement but I have been thinking about joining this group and using IL-2 with it.

 

http://www.joint-ops.com/php2/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

 

If anything it might enhance your flying skills.I am not good at all when it comes to formation flying.Maybe its time to master it.

There used to be a dedicated group that held a flight sim school using Falcon 4.0 that used real world USAF procedures and protocols.Sadly,I think it no longer exists.I used to just fly flight sims and not pay total attention to my avionics but the one thing that MS flight simulator really taught me was to really use your avionics and follow procedures.It taught me VFR,IFR,using VOR,etc.It really made a difference in my skills.

Edited March 30, 2011 by SopmodMikeFour

[Romflyer 25]

Second, I notice that my X45 rig has 3 8-way hi-hats (that is a drum type, I forgot what they are called in Joystick..top hats?), 2 rotary pots with center indent. a 3-position slider (not counting the 3-position slider for modes) and sever extra buttons and triggers.

 

My suggestion is to have a thread with veterans sharing some of their suggested HOTAS configurations. It seems like something that experience will inform much better than a newb who brainstorms it alone, and I would think it would be hard to unlearn later when I realize how stupid my original config was!

 

Some of the ideas I have are to use the mode switch to segregate the target type (ground and air) since I have 2 trigger, allowing me to assign one to the canon, thereby allowing me to leave my other weapon cycle to remain on missiles or A2G. But I also had an idea that if I learn more about RADAR, I might want to use modes for that, which if I understand correctly can do both? I think the Saitek software has extensive macro support, but would this be advisable?

 

As I collect my training answers from you guys, I want to include some notes on that, and actually all of the advice here with my exhortation to get the HOTAS(!), and I hope some suggestions for configurations. I am also looking in to simple DIY ideas, not look the amazing instrument replications I have seen, but maybe something very basic like a dedicated keyboard so that I can assign macros to only that keyboard rather than ANY connected keyboard. If not a keyboard, some other affordable controller to allow customizing it. I saw a keyboard template somewhere, so at least I have a good leg up thanks to all of you guys.

 

 

A ways back I tried to get a thread going for people to share their ideas on hardware ideas and simpit set-ups........not many seemed really interested in sharing ......anyways you might be interested in some of my ideas about using dedicated keyboard set-ups for specific games.

 

http://combatace.com/topic/44449-show-off-your-pit/

[+Gepard 10,690]

Where to start?

On the runway!

[ezlead 42]

Here is a quick and easy read about air combat.

It's called "No Guts,No Glory"

Its written after the Korean War time period,but it works even today.

It's still required reading in some armed forces around the world.

It is written by Maj.(Retired General)Frederick C.(Boots) Blesse.

One of the best fighter pilots to come down the pipe.

NGNG.rar