What did you do in the War Dad?

[Hasse Wind 46]

Interesting stories here.

 

I don't know much about the war service of my paternal or maternal grandfather, unfortunately. One of them died of a stroke when I was too young to know and ask anything about the war, and the remaining one wanted to forget the whole thing; the memories must have been too painful, and he never talked much about it. I do know that they were both in the infantry and saw combat.

 

As far as I know, they were both ordinary men who did their duty when it was demanded of them under very difficult and dangerous conditions. They didn't won scores of medals or lead armies to victory, but were simple soldiers like so many millions of other men in all countries during those dreadful years.

[33LIMA 972]

My late dad was in the RAF post-war, ironically spending most of his time afloat, as he served much of his time on the RAF's famous air sea rescue launches. He remembered and worked on many of the famous WW2 types and it's to him I owe my fascination with flying, of course.

 

Naturally his job didn't always involve pulling unfortunate flyers, or what was left of them, out of the drink. There was always time for a cup of tea and on one occasion, when he was stationed for a change close to home at at RAF Ballykelly, the thirst for a cuppa took him to the airfield's NAFFI van. As luck would have it, the van was on the other side of the runway from where he was working but undaunted, he got on his bicycle and seeing nobody around, ignored regulations and took a quick short cut across the tarmac, instead of going the very long way around. As he was refreshing his thirst, he was able to relax and enjoy the spectacle of a Lancaster making a neat touch down. It stopped short of the apron, however, and the flight engineer got out and came huffing and puffing across to the NAAFI van, to demand who it was, had just cycled across the airfield, and caused his Lanc to have to go around. He'd been sent by the pilot to take the offender's name and number, which he duly did. 'Jankers' I think they called punishment, in the RAF.

 

On another occasion, he was working on the engine of a Beaufighter, test running it while standing on the tarmac undermeath its broad wing. Suddenly there was a brief bout of flame, roaring back, probably some unburnt petrol burning off in the long exhausts which ran back from the engine, beside the nacelle. His mates rushed in to collect what was left but found him standing up inside the engine nacelle itself, protected either side by the open gear doors, and wondering what all the fuss was about.

 

Ah, the joys of Service life!

[Olham 164]

Trying to catch up here with everyone. Still possible I overlooked something.

 

"We got back to our safe house, and a light headed elation overtook me,

but was increased somewhat the next day when we found out that the

German train had been nearly at the bridge when the charges went off....

He hadnt managed to stop in time, and had crashed.

Only one tank was servicable enough to drive off...the others were wrecked!"

 

I detected a slightly smug tone to my dad's tone of voice when he recounted

this particular part of the story!

 

I for one dont blame him for that!

Widowmaker, the big tanks were all SS units, and they would have fought on

very determined with the new delivery, only to stretch the loss of the war; which

would have cost so many more young men's lives - I know I would have burst

from pride about such a great deed - especially as I didn't even have to kill all

the tank crews - he just destroyed their lethar weapons. Pulling the Tiger's

teeth and claws, so to say. A great deed!

 

 

Thanks for the good info on the Skua aircraft and the seaground picture from the

"Ark Royal" (always very touching, such pics...), Flyby!

 

Lou, I know that many people feel guilty after surviving a cathastrophy, which cost

many other people's lives. It sounds irrational, but is also understandable. Your dad

may have felt similar. It is a pity that it caused a shadow on his soul.

So, the war could even hurt the souls of men, who did not have to fight in it.

That is so sad...

 

Interesting stories, everyone, thank you all for sharing!

Edited July 21, 2011 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Thank you Olham...Yes, a proud moment for all my family.

Like most Soldiers, he never boasted about what he did, and was more interested in dicussing German Soldiers to me as a kid (possibly due to my interest in the German Army at the time)... "Well equipped, well disciplined, well trained, well supported....damn good soldiers...but above all...their helmet's made damn good piss-pots!" was one of his regular sayings to me!

 

He wasn't 'quite' as complimentary about the Italian's or Japanese I have to say!

Edited July 21, 2011 by UK_Widowmaker

[Olham 164]

Well, the Japanese - maybe one would need to know them better.

I used to talk several times to a Sushi master, who had his restaurant here in Berlin, and he was a very nice chap.

On the other hand - when we regard the cruelties Japanese soldiers have done in large amount, we think they are

very different. But then again, if we look at what was even possible in my homeland, which should not have been

possible in any human culture - that makes me think, that there are these two contradicting sides in every society,

and that we can only care for our democratic ways and freedoms, as if they were raw eggs.

 

I don't know much about the Italians as soldiers - maybe they are more famous for good food and wine?

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

 

I don't know much about the Italians as soldiers - maybe they are more famous for good food and wine?

 

Italian tanks had one forward gear...and eight reverse ones!

[Olham 164]

Italian tanks had one forward gear...and eight reverse ones!

Yeah, I heard it must be very difficult to get into any parking space outside the Pizzerias in Rome!

Edited July 21, 2011 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

:lol:

[Hasse Wind 46]

Every nation that participated in the Second World War was guilty of war crimes, at least to some extent. That's what happens when huge armies go to fight a total war for many years. There will always be some bad apples among so many people. But in some armies, it was official policy to act in a barbarous way. The German army (Heer) fought in a different way in the west - they treated western prisoners and civilians very well for the most part, but on the Eastern front, it was a completely different matter. Even though the generals and field marshals of the Wehrmacht tried to hide the crimes after the war, the fact remains that the Wehrmacht gave full support to the Gestapo and SS murderers in the occupied eastern territories. And Stalin's Red Army was in many ways just as bad, killing and raping their way through Eastern Europe and into Germany herself, not to mention the horrible way they treated Axis prisoners of war. The Imperial Japanese Army was also notorious for its cruelty. They showed no mercy to enemy soldiers and civilians, and didn't expect to receive it either. In the end, the people of Japan had to pay a very heavy price for the cruelty and stupidity of their leaders.

 

Unlike German soldiers, who for the most part gave full support to their regime until the very end (as always, there were exceptions and not everybody was a fanatic Nazi), the Italians were never eager to fight and die for Mussolini and his fascist lackeys. That explains for the most part the poor record of the Italian army in WW2. They just didn't feel like it was their war to fight. Some branches of the Italian armed forces did perform quite well, like the air force. But the longer the war continued, the more the Italians felt that they were participating in it just because Germany demanded it and Mussolini was too weak to say no to Hitler.

[Olham 164]

Yeah, that's understandable - thanks for the history lesson, Hasse Wind.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Made sense to me too

[Flyby PC 23]

I think it's dangerous for us to forget how unpredictable war can actually be. I feel sorry for little German school boys who want to do what British kids do, and play at being soldiers or fighter pilots because that's what all little boys want to do. They're just kids, and left alone to be kids, they will grow up to adulthood proud to be a German, a Brit, an Italian or whatever. Sooner or later however, our poor little German kid's innocent world full of hope and idealism is forever bound to collide with the dark history of Hitler and his Nazi's, and that's going to shatter everything and mark him forever. Why do I feel sorry for him? Because it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with him. I don't think what happened in Germany was uniquely German. Any people led in similar ways can be manipulated and driven to hate and despise others. Hate is a base instinct which is easy to provoke and bring to the surface. It could happen anywhere, to any Nation or people, irrespective of their nationality. We are all the same, all of us.

 

Just after WW2, Einstein said, "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones".

 

When I was younger, I thought this was a great quote, but now, well, it's still a great quote, but I believe it's dated,and cannot see beyond the use of nuclear weapons. The absolute waste which a nuclear war would make of our planet I think renders nuclear weapons obsolete. WW3 won't be our complete annhilation, it will be a dirty, grubby, long and drawn out unwinnable hate-filled battle fought in ways and places we didn't predict. It will be nasty, hateful, deceiptful and spiteful, and only considered a 'world' war because it might erupt anywhere there's a soft target or atrocity waiting to happen, then disappear as quickly as it broke out, only to happen somewhere else. Think about it. If our enemies cannot combat our weapons, bombs or aircraft, we can be sure that isn't where they will seek to fight us.

 

When I see our Western troops deployed in the Middle East, I get more than a little uncomfortable. I think of all the wars and foreign invasions which countries like Afghanistan has been put through, and add to this, all the hate, mistrust and frustration there is out there, and this extended period of 'tension' between the West and Islam. I don't want to open a can of worms by saying anything beyond the fact I get more than a little bit uncomfortable and frequently remember a quote from Napoleon Bonaparte.

 

"You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war".

 

These Middle East trouble spots are festering sores on our planet and we should be working tirelessly to properly resolve them. Stalemate is not an option.

 

 

 

[33LIMA 972]

Italian tanks had one forward gear...and eight reverse ones!

 

 

The fact the Italians rearmed early and were caught 'between re-equipment cycles' had a lot to do with it. Much of the bad reputation of the Italian forces at the time was down to such factors - and to downright prejudice, then and since, as reflected in such 'jokes'. Funny maybe but not fair comment.

 

You only have to read accounts of how the Italian gunners in the border forts in 1940 often fought to the last against the Matildas, sticking with their guns until literally over-run. There are accounts which suggests we lost rather more Matildas to enemy action than the commonly-accepted low figures.

 

As for the massive number of prisoners (measured at the time in acres) taken at the conclusion of Operation Compass, well we should all ask ourselves how well we would have performed, if sent to war in rickety, thinly-armoured tanks and ended up after a long retreat caught in open desert with little food or water. Even then, the Italian spearhead put in some determined and desperate attacks at Beda Fomm against the British blocking force.

 

Given they were pressed somewhat reluctantly into war by Mussolini, and the state of their industry and kit, the Italian force's WW2 record was quite creditable and they had their share of heroic actions eg the Miale minisubs. They cannot be judged by the superior attitudes of their enemies (or allies!).

Edited July 21, 2011 by 33LIMA

[Olham 164]

As for your first passage, Flyby - that is true - it was impossible for me to identify even near as much with

a German WW2 ace, as it must have been for an English, French, American, Canadian or Australian kid

to identify with their aces. That lead to the result, that there could not be much pride about my nation's

soldiers; and also to quite some admirance for the Allied soldiers.

This was not really bad for my development though. I learnt, that the "other side" is much the same

human beings as mine, who fight as determined and as well as mine. And I understood, that they had

all fought a regime, a fashist ideology, and that they - once that regime was wiped out - offered their help,

and offered their hands to become friends.

We may not have developed that pride about our armies and weapons - but that lead to a wider view,

like looking over the trench line, seeing, recognising the other side. I wouldn't want to miss that.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Sorry LIMA...I was just having a little poke of fun...most of what is thought about the Italian Armed forces of WW2, was just propoganda anyhow.

We often poke fun about the French Military too....but in both cases, can be proven historically innacurate....one only has to look at the Roman Legions, and the French Armies of Napoleon to discover the opposite is true!

[Flyby PC 23]

That's true UKW and Lima, I don't expect I'd enjoy listening to the Japanese telling jokes about the British military capitulation and humiliation in Singapore.

 

 

Knowledge is so much more important than propaganda.

 

If I was to describe a WW1 veteran infantry NCO, decorated for courage, who survived the horror of the trenches, but saw action at Ypres, Messines, The Somme and Passchendaele, was wounded in the leg but went back to front to be with his men, and suffered from the effects of a mustard gas attack, including temporary blindness, I'm guessing you, like me, feel a sense of admiration welling up inside. That is rightful admiration you are feeling, but you feel different and a little guilty when you realise I'm talking about Adolph Hitler of course. My point is if you'd met Hitler in 1919, you'd have saluted him too, so don't be too quick to judge those German people who actually did.

 

History allows us to ridicule and revile Hitler and his dillusions, but there are no lessons to be learned from that. We need to get to grips with Hitler, and I mean really understand the process of his rise to power. Set aside all the myths, rumours and hype, and pick out the danger signs and warnings so that any future like minded dictatorship can be identified and addressed before it escalates to involve the deaths of millions and millions of people. I have never seen any study or documentary about Hitler which documnets the change from Hitler the war time hero, and the emergence of the monster within. At what stage could the danger which Hitler posed have first been identified, and when was the final realistic opportunity to have stopped him. That's the important lesson, because when you look at modern tin pot dictators the likes of Saddam Hussain, and the list of others, becoming untouchable is one of their earliest steps, and once untouchable, it becomes that much more difficult to remove them.

 

I'd be willing to bet that with Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, Mugabe, etc, they were aleady untouchable, and embedded in their positions of strength long before the danger signs emerged.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Flyby PC

[Olham 164]

At hindsight, everything is so much clearer to see, that's true, Flyby.

I don't think it is a good idea anyway, to project all the terrible deeds only just on one man like Hitler.

What makes me shudder much more, is the fact, that the whole German railway system (for example)

with so many people working there, became part of the Holocaust - a perfectly greased machinery,

and civil servants, who switched off their personal responsibilities. Waggonloads of Jewish people

became numbers and transports; were neatly listed in the logs; were managed like meat stock.

 

The true horror is not, when we are ruled by a Hitler - it is to be ruled by fear.

Each and everyone's personal fear.

That is what caused me nightmares after seeing "The Diary of Anne Frank" -

that I knew, I would not have had the strength to hide even only one Jewish person from the Nazis

for several years. What would I have done? I cannot say.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Olham

[Flyby PC 23]

At hindsight, everything is so much clearer to see, that's true, Flyby.

I don't think it is a good idea anyway, to project all the terrible deeds only just on one man like Hitler.

What makes me shudder much more, is the fact, that the whole German railway system (for example)

with so many people working there, became part of the Holocaust - a perfectly greased machinery,

and civil servants, who switched off their personal responsibilities. Waggonloads of Jewish people

became numbers and transports; were neatly listed in the logs; were managed like meat stock.

 

The true horror is not, when we are ruled by a Hitler - it is to be ruled by fear.

Each and everyone's personal fear.

That is what caused me nightmares after seeing "The Diary of Anne Frank" -

that I knew, I would not have had the strength to hide even only one Jewish person from the Nazis

for several years. What would I have done? I cannot say.

 

I agree Olham, but Hitler is the pivotal point for everything else. Remove him from the picture, and and you change everything else. If Hitler had died of his battlefield wound, or even been permanently blinded by the gas, Anne Frank would never have written her diary. Hitler was a pivotal point in history which changed the course of that history.

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

SOE had instructions to assasinate Hitler...in fact, two agents had him bang to rights in their scopes...but were not given permission to fire, in case someone who knew what they were doing, such as Rommel took the reigns!....Hitler was, in the end..the Architect of his own downfall

[kaa 0]

Hi,

 

Mine is born in 1919 and still alive and active today ...

 

he is Algerian born and enlisted (more or less drafted ) in the French army in the spring 43' after the Allied landing in French North Africa of november 42'. He went into combat in may 1944 in Italy when the French Expedionary Corps blew the German key position and opened the road to Rome ( yes ! yes , they did it: My link ) during the battle of Monte Cassino. he was Corporal in the 7th Algerian Light infantry/riflemen (tirailleurs) regiment , 3rd Algerian infantry division, and marched in Rome, the first occupied Axis capital town. Fought till mid july with the seizure of Sienna (" but that was a real pleasure walk, very little resistance") . They were then sent south for replenishment for some weeks.

Then he boarded on ships in Tarento and landed on the 16th august in Southern France near Saint-Tropez. He was WIA on the 22th , by handgrenade splinters in the head coming from the right while manning the squad LMG, in the suburbs of Marseilles. Croix de guerre one palm one star, médaille militaire and légion d 'honneur some years later. I am quite proud of him .

[MikeDixonUK 5]

Great stories everyone!

 

My Dad was only born in 1943 - so he might have been just a tad young to serve during the War. However my Grandad was a Paratrooper and fought in Operation Market Garden (technically he was Glider Infantry / Airlanding) here's a photo of him taken during Market Garden, in the garden (go figure) of No.16 Van Lennepweg in Oosterbeek collecting parapack ammunition:

 

 

He's the one bent down at the back, behind the Man with a cigarette - not the best picture in the world, but I imagine they were a bit busy at the time!

 

Unfortunately he died before I was born (in the 70s I think), so I never got to meet him - but my Mum says he didn't much talk about what happened, other than a few snippets - such as taking cover in a wheat field to hide from some Panzers - being attacked by Flamethrower Tanks - swimming the Rhine (he escaped back to the Allied lines, thankfully) and also the bravery of the Polish Transport Pilots - who tried to deliver ammunition to them even when their Aircraft were on fire/fatally damaged - I've never quite known how he knew that the Pilots were Polish though, as you'd think a Polish RAF C-47 would look much the same as a British RAF C-47, or a Canadian RAF C-47, etc - unless they were in radio contact with them for a time.

 

After Market Garden he was sent to either Norway or Denmark to receive the surrender of the German Forces there - I think it was Norway, and that they all received a letter from whichever Monarch it was that ruled there at the time, thanking them for the liberation - but now I'm into the realms of vagueness!

 

He also disliked war films that made it look like America won the war singlehanded, so I hear!

 

Of his possessions, we have his 1st Airborne shoulder flash (ie the Pegasus) - and a telegram that was sent to his wife (my Grandmother) two days after the end of Market Garden, which just said that he was safe - no doubt a very emotional message to receive!

 

Other than that we have a Hitler Youth Bayonet - but apparently he got that through a trade with someone else.

 

I'd like to visit No.16 Van Lennepweg one day, to see what it is like in reality (google maps doesn't give quite the same feeling I'd imagine. )

Edited July 24, 2011 by MikeDixonUK

[Flyby PC 23]

Hi,

 

Mine is born in 1919 and still alive and active today ...

 

he is Algerian born and enlisted (more or less drafted ) in the French army in the spring 43' after the Allied landing in French North Africa of november 42'. He went into combat in may 1944 in Italy when the French Expedionary Corps blew the German key position and opened the road to Rome ( yes ! yes , they did it: My link ) during the battle of Monte Cassino. he was Corporal in the 7th Algerian Light infantry/riflemen (tirailleurs) regiment , 3rd Algerian infantry division, and marched in Rome, the first occupied Axis capital town. Fought till mid july with the seizure of Sienna (" but that was a real pleasure walk, very little resistance") . They were then sent south for replenishment for some weeks.

Then he boarded on ships in Tarento and landed on the 16th august in Southern France near Saint-Tropez. He was WIA on the 22th , by handgrenade splinters in the head coming from the right while manning the squad LMG, in the suburbs of Marseilles. Croix de guerre one palm one star, médaille militaire and légion d 'honneur some years later. I am quite proud of him .

 

That's well cool Kaa. I also had an uncle at Monte Cassino, but no idea of any details. To be honest, he was always referred to as Uncle Tommy, (his name, not just a British Tommy) but this might just be because he was a friend of the family, but I'm not sure he was a genuine uncle. I don't know much about my mothers side of the family, - never paid much attention really. You don't really care much when you're young. He was also a Canadian, and it might have been 'uncle' by marriage. I also had another uncle, Ian Shaw, who fought through North Africa and up into Italy, and I reckon he must have been at Monte Casino too. He was married to my grand mothers sister, and brother to Wilson Shaw. Wilson Shaw played international rugby for Scotland and captained the side that won the Triple Crown in 1938. http://en.wikipedia....ert_Wilson_Shaw He is a bona fida relation, but by marriage, so none of his blood in my veins.

 

He died when I was a kid, and when his wife died in the 80's, I inherited his Rolex watch. I thought yahoo! Kerching! How cool is that! Unfortunately this is THE rolex watch he wore in the desert and throughout his war, and frankly, you've never in your life seen such a worn out watch. The metal parts of the bracelet around the face are actually worn right through. We had it valued at around £1000 if it was repaired, but the quote for repairing it was £1200. What a pain. One of these days, maybe, but I don't know. It's knackered, but the way in which it got knackered is just as cool as having it fixed.

 

@ MikeDixon. That rocks too Mike. The chance is slim right enough, but it's possible I've perhaps seen your Grandpa - not that I'd know of course. At one time I was a mere TA Para, and there were a couple of parades on Airborne Forces day at Aldershot when we lined the route while the old and bold marched by, many of whom were WW2 Veterans. EDIT - Sorry Mike, I missed the bit below the pic about him passing on in the 70's. I should pay more attention before opening my big gob. I might have saluted his mates though...

Edited July 24, 2011 by Flyby PC

[Burning Beard 14]

My father was a B29 Pilot with the 676th of the 444th of the 20th Air Force, Army Air Corp. He was with the group that initially took the B29's to India, Flying across the Atlantic to Morocco then on to Egypt, from there to India. He flew the China Burma India route and was then moved on to Tinian from which he participated in the fire bombing of Japan (flown a 10,000' at night). He had some scary stories which he didn't tell me until after I returned from Viet Nam.

 

 

Beard

 

 

[hood 2]

Mainly waited around.

[Hector 0]

Mike,

Many years ago when i was staying in Osnabruk,we went to visit Arnhem and Oosterbeek one Sunday.I remember in one garden there was a tall piece of wood(may even have ben metal)with a plaque attached to it.It said something like "dedicated to the men of the airborne who landed and fought here".My uncle who had had a few on the journey up declared,"we are airbornee,lets knock the door and say hello"."I disuaded him by saying that the occupants now were probably not the same ones as 1944.I have no idea if your photo and the plaque has any connection but thought id mention it anyway.Although the museum was closed we still had a great day.

 

Hector