Footnotes to "von Richtofen and Brown"

[Hauksbee 103]

I watched it again last nights (warts and all). This morning I looked for where it was shot and other details. (Wikipedia, of course) It turns out that all the planes are owned by a Canadian, Lynn Garrison (ex-RCAF) http://en.wikipedia..../Lynn_Garrison. After "The Blue Max" was done filming, he bought all those planes too.

 

Ex-RCAF pilot Lynn Garrison supplied the aircraft, crews and facilities for Von Richthofen and Brown and personally coordinated the flying sequences for Roger Corman’s film. Garrison had purchased the collection of hangars, aircraft, vehicles and support equipment accumulated for filming 20th Century’s top grossing film, The Blue Max, in 1965. The collection included replica Pfalz D.III's, S.E.5s, Fokker D.VII's, Fokker Dr.I's, plus Tiger Moths, and Stampe SV4C's (the Belgian Tiger Moth).

 

Corman used an Alouette helicopter, along with a Helio Courier, for aerial photography, supported by a number of specialized camera mounts Garrison developed for use on individual aircraft. This allowed footage of actors, such as John Philip Law, and Don Stroud “flying” the aircraft. In actual fact, Lynn Garrison trained Law and Stroud to the point where they could take off, land the Stampe, and fly basic sequences themselves, from the rear seat, filmed with a rear-facing camera. Stunt pilots were still used for the more complicated sequences, one such pilot being famed New Age author Richard Bach. Bach wrote about his experiences with the film production in a short story entitled "I Shot Down the Red Baron, and So What", which is reproduced in his short story collection, "A Gift of Wings".

 

On September 15, 1970, Charles Boddington, veteran of The Blue Max and Darling Lili shoots, was killed when his SE-5 spun in during a low-level maneuver over the airfield. The next day, during the last scheduled flight on the shooting schedule, Garrison and Stroud were involved in a low-level sequence across Lake Weston, in the Stampe, when a jackdaw struck Garrison in the face, knocking him unconscious. The aircraft then ran through five powerlines, snap rolled and plunged into the lake inverted. Garrison and Stroud were rescued from the waters. Stroud was uninjured while Garrison required 60 stitches to close a head wound.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Hauksbee

[33LIMA 972]

Have to confess I've never actually seen more than the odd clip from that film, it always sounded and looked pretty bad, compared to Blue Max or Aces High (which latter has grown me despite the many historical liberites taken eg SE -vs- Eindekker, as have Red Baron and Flyboys, tho still not a patch on Blue Max, universal lozenge fabric and grey Irish skies notwithstanding).

 

Is Von R and Brown really worth watching?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Excellent info Hauksbee, albeit on a truly horrendous film. Just think how much more could have been done, given the planes they had to work with, if the film had dealt with Werner Voss and Arthur Rhys Davids. And if they would have engaged in even a modicum of research.

 

 

Lima, you have missed almost nothing Sir.

 

.

[Hauksbee 103]

Have to confess I've never actually seen more than the odd clip from that film, it always sounded and looked pretty bad, compared to Blue Max or Aces High (which latter has grown me despite the many historical liberites taken eg SE -vs- Eindekker, as have Red Baron and Flyboys, tho still not a patch on Blue Max, universal lozenge fabric and grey Irish skies notwithstanding).

 

Is Von R and Brown really worth watching?

How bad is it? Here's the list of factual errors tabulated by Wikipedia:

 

The film contains so many factual errors (a selection of which are listed here) that it is effectively almost completely fictionalised:

• Richthofen is shown flying a Fokker D.VII before flying the Fokker Dr.I, when in fact the Dr.1 came out earlier than the D.VII. Von Richthofen died (just) before the D.VII entered service.
• The aircraft of the Flying Circus are shown as being painted in a uniform scheme of blue and silver - in fact they were painted in varied individual colours, with red predominating.
• Hermann Göring was not in the Flying Circus until he took over command some time after von Richthofen's death. Wilhelm Reinhard was Richthofen's immediate successor.
• Hawker died in November 1916, flying a D.H.2. Brown did not begin flying combat missions until March 1917, and in any case never belonged to the Royal Flying Corps (see next point). Thus the two never served in the same squadron, and probably never met.
• Brown's squadron had just ceased to be part of the Royal Naval Air Service, which had just amalgamated with the Royal Flying Corps to form the Royal Air Force in April 1918. He and his squadron mates would still have been wearing naval uniforms.
• Roy Brown and his squadron flew Sopwith Camels, not S.E.5s, as depicted in the film.
• Brown almost certainly did not actually shoot Richthofen down.
• Lothar von Richthofen did not join Jasta 11 until 1917.
• Anthony Fokker and Oswald Boelcke were both still in their twenties at the time - not balding men in their 40's. Boelcke never served in the Flying Circus, which was formed after his death, although he was Richthofen's commanding officer in another unit (Jasta 2) in 1916.
• Ernst Udet did not join the flying circus until 1918.
• The portrayal of the death of Werner Voss had little relationship with the facts. He was shot down and killed in northern Belgium, some time before Richthofen's death.
• Lt May did not enter the RAF 209 squadron until 1918 - in fact he was still an almost complete novice at the time of Richthofen's death.
• During a scene where the Red Baron is rescued in No Man's Land, the Germans are shown firing World War II era (Mk.IV) Lee Enfield Rifles. In any case, German fighter squadrons as a matter of policy flew well behind their own lines. The only time Richthofen was shot down before his death was on his own side of the lines. On the day of his death he was probably lost, and did not realise he was so close to the Allied lines.
• Attacks on the opposition's airfields (by both sides) were relatively routine and in no way "unexpected" - counter measures such as alarm bells, anti aircraft machine guns in permament positions, fire fighting equipment, and above all military preparedness were also routine. Such attacks were normally undertaken by bombers rather than fighters, even by the Allies. German fighters, in particular, simply did not undertake bombing missions, nor were they employed on the Allied side of the lines.
• Base hospitals were not located at military airfields (this in itself would have been a breach of the Geneva Convention).

Edited August 29, 2011 by Hauksbee

[Hellshade 110]

Other than that, it was great.

 

Hellshade

[themightysrc 5]

If you want to watch something even vaguely accurate about WWI, I'd suggest either All Quiet on the Western Front (because it captures the futility and paranoia perfectly) or else the BBC series Wings, which takes in the human agonies from the British POV.

 

Don't bother with Hollywood. To be frank, my take on the Blue Max is that it's a pile of s**te.

[Hauksbee 103]

To be frank, my take on the Blue Max is that it's a pile of s**te.

"The Blue Max" is about as good as these things get, but it was pretty thin compared to the book. Bruno Stachel was a very complex character. Willi (Jeremy Kemp) didn't die in a test-of-skill flying accident, Stachel killed him (forced him into a crash). Stachel doesn't die flying the 'new monoplane', his squadron commander does. Stachel flies it first, realizes that it's a death-trap, but can't tell his commander. Stachel survives the war. It ends at a bar/party where Hermann Goring comes over and introduces himself, congratulates Stachel on his war record and offers him a job. You can see where Stachel's future is going.

[Olham 164]

"Von Richthofen and Brown" was my first film I ever saw about WW1 flying, and I was only 15 0r 16 then,

so I admit I was impressed and wanted to know more.

Nowadays we all know how far away from the real story the movie was, but hey - back then it worked.

We have only become experts (some more, some less) later, and now we don't like most WW1 movies.

 

I actually liked "Hells Angels" better. "The Blue Max" is also better than all the other stuff, except "Aces High",

which is also quite okay.

[Hauksbee 103]

"Hell's Angels" holds up remarkably considering it's so old that it was originally shot as a silent film, then re-shot for sound. Best of all...all the planes were real. Howard Hughes said at the time that he had the largest private air force in the world.

[Hauksbee 103]

Is Von R and Brown really worth watching?

I just discovered "Aces High" on Netflix Watch Instantly. So I did. If you can sit through that, then "von Richtofen and Brown" won't seem all that bad.

[carrick58 23]

It has airplanes

 

I watched it again last nights (warts and all). This morning I looked for where it was shot and other details. (Wikipedia, of course) It turns out that all the planes are owned by a Canadian, Lynn Garrison (ex-RCAF) http://en.wikipedia..../Lynn_Garrison. After "The Blue Max" was done filming, he bought all those planes too.

 

Ex-RCAF pilot Lynn Garrison supplied the aircraft, crews and facilities for Von Richthofen and Brown and personally coordinated the flying sequences for Roger Corman’s film. Garrison had purchased the collection of hangars, aircraft, vehicles and support equipment accumulated for filming 20th Century’s top grossing film, The Blue Max, in 1965. The collection included replica Pfalz D.III's, S.E.5s, Fokker D.VII's, Fokker Dr.I's, plus Tiger Moths, and Stampe SV4C's (the Belgian Tiger Moth).

 

Corman used an Alouette helicopter, along with a Helio Courier, for aerial photography, supported by a number of specialized camera mounts Garrison developed for use on individual aircraft. This allowed footage of actors, such as John Philip Law, and Don Stroud “flying” the aircraft. In actual fact, Lynn Garrison trained Law and Stroud to the point where they could take off, land the Stampe, and fly basic sequences themselves, from the rear seat, filmed with a rear-facing camera. Stunt pilots were still used for the more complicated sequences, one such pilot being famed New Age author Richard Bach. Bach wrote about his experiences with the film production in a short story entitled "I Shot Down the Red Baron, and So What", which is reproduced in his short story collection, "A Gift of Wings".

 

On September 15, 1970, Charles Boddington, veteran of The Blue Max and Darling Lili shoots, was killed when his SE-5 spun in during a low-level maneuver over the airfield. The next day, during the last scheduled flight on the shooting schedule, Garrison and Stroud were involved in a low-level sequence across Lake Weston, in the Stampe, when a jackdaw struck Garrison in the face, knocking him unconscious. The aircraft then ran through five powerlines, snap rolled and plunged into the lake inverted. Garrison and Stroud were rescued from the waters. Stroud was uninjured while Garrison required 60 stitches to close a head wound.

 

Good Report Great Job