The Knight in the black Triplane

[Olham 164]

Just read about Josef Jacobs, Jasta 7, in "Above the Lines".

When I read, that he later rejected Goering's call to the Luftwaffe, I thought "Hey, who was that man?"

When I then read, that he had moved to Holland with his aeroplane building company, and that he

had been hiding, when Goering came to see him (Jacobs had refused to let Goering become a

main shareholder of his company), the Pour-le-Mérite owner had gained my sympathy.

 

Jacobs kept the Fokker Dr.1 as long as October 1918, when the rest of the Staffel had long got newer craft.

I have never flown with the black fighters from Jasta 7 - now I will create a pilot there.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Josef_Jacobs

 

 

Edited September 5, 2011 by Olham

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

Interesting indeed!...Obviously anti-Nazi

[Creaghorn 10]

thanks for sharing olham,

jacobs is one of the guys i like most, together with julius buckler (thanks again for the book, my friend, though i still have to find out if it's an original dedication from uschi to erich "bubi" hartmann).

both humble lifes before and after the war with feel for honor and duty

[Olham 164]

Yes, definitely. And he also didn't seem to like "Herr Meier".

[Hasse Wind 46]

What a tragedy such people where in the minority. For every Jacobs, there were many former Luftstreitkräfte men who either saw nothing wrong with the Hitler regime, or came to their senses much too late, like Udet.

 

I once had a very successful career in Jasta 7. But I lost that pilot in a collision during air combat.

[Olham 164]

Yeah, collision would suit there - they were long time in the thick of it, up north.

 

As for the officers who joined the Nazis, it is always difficult to imagine the situation

and the feelings of that time, BEFORE everyone would have known, what we know

today about the regime.

As for Udet - I think he was just too weak there, to stay distant from Göring, who must

have been a charming manipulator. I mean, imagine: Josef Jacobs was hiding from

Göring, so he didn't have to meet him... I am so very glad, that I never got into such

situations.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Olham

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Until your post Olham I knew very little about Jacobs, apart from he being listed as one of the higher scoring German aces. Thank you for sharing this link, it was quite informative.

 

.

[Creaghorn 10]

Yeah, collision would suit there - they were long time in the thick of it, up north.

 

As for the officers who joined the Nazis, it is always difficult to imagine the situation

and the feelings of that time, BEFORE everyone would have known, what we know

today about the regime.

As for Udet - I think he was just too weak there, to stay distant from Göring, who must

have been a charming manipulator. I mean, imagine: Josef Jacobs was hiding from

Göring, so he didn't have to meet him... I am so very glad, that I never got into such

situations.

 

i think it was rather easy to get persuaded and involved with the regime if you were an officer. imagine you are a pilot, maybe even a successful ace in the great war. you come back home and find yourself in a stage of almost civil war with communists and monarchists and nationalists. your country is punished and kept down the following years. most of all, the country is not allowed to build a luftwaffe, therefore totally insignificant in the world. you know that the country, worldfamous for culture, literature, inventions (where people nowadays still think that many things they know were invented in the USA or Japan, but they are not) etc. is deliberately held down under the thumbs of the winners. additionally the world economic crisis comes and then appears a small man with mustache who somehow manages to gives the people their patriotism back. only a few were smart enough to forsee the danger of this man. most people were happy that finally somebody appeared who is giving their country it's pride and honor again and the feel of "we are" in the world. especially with the tactical politics about the saarland etc. i think many of the old people nowadays who were witnesses in that time have been handraisers, if they admit it or not. so if in the 30ies somebody would come to you, saying hey, we are building our luftwaffe/luftstreitkräfte again and we want to have the goddamn best in the world, i can imagine that it was very tempting to agree. especially if you think it's for country and fatherland.

[Olham 164]

That's in better detail, what I meant to say, Creaghorn.

And the "man with the moustache" looked very father-like in the beginning,

when his face wasn't yet famous for the outrageous deeds, that we knew later.

 

My mum once told me, what she talked with her best girl friend, when they heard,

that Hitler was dead. They were 13, and they had been in the Hitlerjugend; had

welcomed the grand picture and gestures of the "Uberfather"; they both had lost

their fathers early; and now that Hitler was dead, her girlfriend said to her:

"Now we have only each other in this world..."

When she later heard about the Holocaust, her whole world, her belief in human

nature, collapsed; and it took a very long time to recover, very slowly.

She still doesn't trust any politicians anymore - but that may be rather healthy.

[Hasse Wind 46]

I know all that, but still it's difficult for me to understand. Always has, and probably always will be.

 

I mean, just listen to one of Adolf's speeches. Not a short extract from a speech, but a whole speech. It's mostly sick and awful. It was often sick and awful even by the standards of the day. But I guess most people, even Nazi supporters, thought it was just rhethorics. Well, it wasn't. He meant every word he wrote and spoke.

 

But one thing is often forgotten too - the majority of Germans never voted for the Nazis. In free elections, that is. Elections ceased to be free in 1933. After that you can't trust the numbers any more.

 

Jacobs certainly wasn't alone with his attitude.

[Creaghorn 10]

I know all that, but still it's difficult for me to understand. Always has, and probably always will be.

 

I mean, just listen to one of Adolf's speeches. Not a short extract from a speech, but a whole speech. It's mostly sick and awful. It was often sick and awful even by the standards of the day. But I guess most people, even Nazi supporters, thought it was just rhethorics. Well, it wasn't. He meant every word he wrote and spoke.

 

But one thing is often forgotten too - the majority of Germans never voted for the Nazis. In free elections, that is. Elections ceased to be free in 1933. After that you can't trust the numbers any more.

 

Jacobs certainly wasn't alone with his attitude.

 

the nazi partie was elected free 1933, from then on there were no free elections anymore.

also it's true that the one who opened his eyes and wanted to know, he knew what was happening to a degree. but many did not want to see or were scared or they thought it's not their business.

when my wive grew up in germany she had two old widowed women as neighbours on each side. both of them talked a lot about those times with my wive. one always told that they knew what was happening. that they saw the juwes disappear and the people must have been stupid not to see it. the other lady always told to my wive that they didn't know anything in those times. they were completely surprised from the holocaust afterwards. that was the main reason why the both ladies hated each other.

[Olham 164]

I know all that, but still it's difficult for me to understand. Always has, and probably always will be.

It is difficult, or even impossible for us sophisticated post-WW2 people.

I guess, his energy fascinated a population, who was feeling very, very low - without them believing

in every word he said. But everything is only just attempts to relive a time and the common attitudes

and the Zeitgeist of a time we haven't lived in.

And hopefully never will.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Good points Creaghorn. The elections that lead to Hitler's rise to power were held in November 1932. The NSDAP got 33.1 per cent of the votes. It proves well that not everybody was a Nazi. Those were the last free elections in Germany until the end of WW2. There were elections also in March 1933, but by then the Nazis were already influencing the results through various illegal means, by controlling the police and things like that.

 

Source for the election results: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSDAP#Wahlerfolge_seit_1930

 

By the way, wouldn't it be nice to have a personal aircraft in OFF when you achieve ace status and sufficient rank? That would make it possible to imitate Jacobs and keep flying your favourite crate even when others have become available. This was possible in Red Baron, if I'm not mistaken. Just a thought.

[Creaghorn 10]

By the way, wouldn't it be nice to have a personal aircraft in OFF when you achieve ace status and sufficient rank? That would make it possible to imitate Jacobs and keep flying your favourite crate even when others have become available. This was possible in Red Baron, if I'm not mistaken. Just a thought.

 

maybe it will be in p4, but personally i think it was too seldom that somebody did that. you have of course handful examples, but compared to the thousands of other pilots i think it's too insignificant.

if it would be possible, then what to do if you crashland with your nieuport 17 in may 1918? in real it would be tough to organize another one, but ingame you would instantly get another one. maybe as an option just with the possibility to use it prolonged until crashing it?

[Olham 164]

Hasse Wind, I am almost certain, that Pol (or Winder?) wrote exactly that will be in P4.

According to history, the squadrons will have more than one plane type.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Olham

[Hasse Wind 46]

We'll just have to trust the devs to work their magic, I guess. I'm sure we won't be disappointed, whatever they decide to do.

[Olham 164]

I know from all their comments, that they are absolutely determined to get it as realistic as any possible.

So, whatever necessary to achieve that - they will struggle towards it. In that I trust.

[carrick58 23]

Just read about Josef Jacobs, Jasta 7, in "Above the Lines".

When I read, that he later rejected Goering's call to the Luftwaffe, I thought "Hey, who was that man?"

When I then read, that he had moved to Holland with his aeroplane building company, and that he

had been hiding, when Goering came to see him (Jacobs had refused to let Goering become a

main shareholder of his company), the Pour-le-Mérite owner had gained my sympathy.

 

Jacobs kept the Fokker Dr.1 as long as October 1918, when the rest of the Staffel had long got newer craft.

I have never flown with the black fighters from Jasta 7 - now I will create a pilot there.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Josef_Jacobs

 

 

 

An Impressive individual He not only Talked the Talk,but he also walked the walk

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

It is difficult, or even impossible for us sophisticated post-WW2 people.

I guess, his energy fascinated a population, who was feeling very, very low - without them believing

in every word he said. But everything is only just attempts to relive a time and the common attitudes

and the Zeitgeist of a time we haven't lived in.

And hopefully never will.

 

Indeed Olham...the fight isn't over yet....the Far Right extremists are still with us sadly...we must all stand up to their warped ideology.

 

Thankfully the BNP here in the UK are completely bankrupt...and I took pleasure in reading that the head man, has had his Car taken back in lieu of debts...their supporters will still be around..but it will take a lot of work and money for them to continue their rascist rantings!

[Olham 164]

...the fight isn't over yet....the Far Right extremists are still with us sadly...we must all stand up to their warped ideology.

Our north-eastern Bundesland Mecklenburg-Vorpommern has the lowest population of all German states.

It is mainly agricultural, and rather financially poor. The NPD (Nationalsozialistische Partei Deutschlands)

had sent many Nazis there after Germany's re-unification, to infiltrate the politics there.

They failed fortunately. The Ministerpräsident Sellerin was elected again, They succeeded in building more work places

there, and their overall politics was general very well accepted. The NPD had losses at this last election.

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

when my wive grew up in germany she had two old widowed women as neighbours on each side. both of them talked a lot about those times with my wive. one always told that they knew what was happening. that they saw the juwes disappear and the people must have been stupid not to see it. the other lady always told to my wive that they didn't know anything in those times. they were completely surprised from the holocaust afterwards. that was the main reason why the both ladies hated each other.

Safe for people living just next to the extermination camps (which were mostly out of Germany), who could have imagine that all of the most modern industrial means could be used to kill not thousands, but millions of European close neighbours, moreover while these means were required to fight a total war? At that time, this was unprecedented in the World's History! And who could have imagine that such a will could come not from usual raw Antisemites (Romanians, Hungarians, Poles...), but from a people who gave to the World many of the best musicians, philosophers, scholars and physicists (many of them of Jewish ascendency)?

 

During WW1, the French papers accumulated propaganda lies in order to have people believe that the Germans were degenerate, unhuman people ("bobards", those were nicknamed). One of these bobards related that the German armies were followed by giant mobile crematoriums to burn their deads, and that the corpses were used to make soap. After the war, of course, everybody laughed at such childish propaganda. To make soap out of dead bodies! Who could have believe such an enormous bulls**t!? And who could have believe it again in any following war, had it been used?

[Olham 164]

Nazis are "low-profile" people. They are not all stupid, but mostly ignorant, and they want to be the better people,

although they recrute their followers among the losers of the society; and they recruit their soldiers among the

most pig-ignorant and the brutal and stupidest.

 

In WW1 the jews were still rather integrated in the German society. But it was their almost general will, to be

people of a certain value and class; they educated their children better, they cared more for their carreers; they

would be found in professions like scientists and doktors and engineers and businessmen. Not all of them of course,

but a much higher percentage than among other Germans.

In that they succeeded so much better in doing that generally, they became objects of envy and hatred for many.

The loser always searches for someone, who is even below him.

Believe it or not: I have once witnessed two American coloured men walking on Berlins Ku'damm (a shopping street),

and they pointed at three other coloured men in long colourful caftans and with fez-like hats; and they said:

"Look at 'em African niggers."

I couldn't believe it, but it is a good example for what I mean.

 

I don't think, that normal single people could have done very much, once the Nazis had established their power.

But what I find really sad is, that Jasta comrades of Jewish WW1 pilots later often denied the comradeship, and

let their Jewish comrades alone in the brutal machinery.

I read about a German ace pilot, an officer who couldn't find him "decent" work after the war (was it Loerzer?);

and he asked a Jewish comrade. The Jew helped him and made contact to another jew, and the German officer

got a job through the,

Later, when Goering "collected" him for the Nazis, he denied the Jewish comrades; he forgot about the help.

That is something I find just lousy - lousy and chicken-livered.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Olham

[Olham 164]

PS: I looked it up; and here is an excerpt from "The Jew with the Blue Max" (about Wilhelm Frankl):

"The other Jewish member of Jasta 26, was Jakob Wolf. ( ... ) Wolf also scored some victories, and

even after the war, he proved that he was a faithful comrade, when his former Jasta leader came to

him requesting help. As most of these officers did not like to work, Wolf made him chief of one of the

many cigar shops, which he owned. And Loerzer was glad to have found this job.

It is not widely known, but Loerzer was later engaged to the daughter of the Jewish owner of a lead-

ing departement store in Berlin. He also obtained money from these people.

After 1933, Loerzer forgot all of his Jewish friends who had helped him and also his friend Goering."

Edited September 7, 2011 by Olham

[Olham 164]

Here is a website to the memory of the 12.000 fallen German Jewish soldiers of WW1:

 

http://www.germanjewishsoldiers.com/memorial.php

[Capitaine Vengeur 263]

But what I find really sad is, that Jasta comrades of Jewish WW1 pilots later often denied the comradeship, and

let their Jewish comrades alone in the brutal machinery.

I read about a German ace pilot, an officer who couldn't find him "decent" work after the war (was it Loerzer?);

and he asked a Jewish comrade. The Jew helped him and made contact to another jew, and the German officer

got a job through the,

Later, when Goering "collected" him for the Nazis, he denied the Jewish comrades; he forgot about the help.

That is something I find just lousy - lousy and chicken-livered.

Lörzer seems to have always been a pro-Nazi in the heart. But many counter-examples do exist. For instance, when the Nazis wanted to remove late Wilhelm Frankl (20 kills) from the lists of German air heroes, many of his former comrades-in-arms protested, and one of them was no less than Wilhelm Bittrich, a future important SS General (he appears as quite a human SS in "A bridge too far", played by Maximilian Schell).

 

Also, when Willi Rosenstein (9 kills) wanted to emigrate to South Africa after the Nazis rose to power, he had to ask his former flight leader Hermann Göring the allowance to bring a plane with him - as emigrating Jews were intended to leave "naked". Fat Hermann gave him allowance to bring enough spare parts to rebuild three planes. Before that, Rosenstein was prohibited to fly as a Jew, but the man responsible for the next airstrip, a former brother-in-arms, gave him full allowance to the place. Rosenstein finally ceased to fly to prevent his comrade from having problems.