Engine damage questions

[DukeIronHand 8]

After an awfully busy summer I am hoping to get back to my OFF campaign flying. I guess we can say I have been on leave from the front for two months.

Without getting all mushy I have to say I have missed the flying and my comrades here in the "ready room."

In doing a forum search I believe I have found the bulk of my answers (double checking though)except for one so without further ado...

 

1) If you are hit in the fuel tank there is no visual or graphic clue (i.e., white vapor trail)given by the sim and that the only way to tell is by looking for excessive fuel usage via the HUD/info screens? Chance of fire while flying with a fuel leak?

 

2) Does the sim's DM model oil leaks? Some posts suggest so. Is there a visual clue or any way to tell via the HUD/info screens? I think some AC have oil pressure gauges in the cockpit. Is a pressure drop reflected in the gauges if this is so?

 

3) Usually, it seems, the only way I am aware of engine damage is via sound effects - which makes it pretty clear there is trouble! If I continue to fly or push my engine when it is making that god awful racket do I have a increased chance of an engine fire? Will the engine eventually stop working?

 

I normally use the HPW DM is this makes a difference.

 

Thanks and S!

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Hallo, Duke. Welcom back to the (un)friendly skies but friendly forum.

 

1) You may be able to see a fuel leak if you look behind to your tail. Of course, If you are flying an Se5 or an Alb DV, this view is blocked by the headrest. In that case, switch to the outside or chase view and see if you can spot the leak. Otherwise, you have to look at your fuel guage, if equipped. I don't believe there is an increased risk of fire with a fuel leak, except as a sign that your engine or fuel tank is getting closer to the "threshold" for a possible fire.

 

2) You can see oil leaks by looking behind you, as above. Frankly, I haven't looked to see if the oil guage also shows a loss of oil pressure.

 

3) The engine sputtering sound, I think, seems to be triggered after your engine has received ANY damage--unfortunately. However, my DM has substantially increased the hit points for the engine so it still performs roughly as well as it does 100% undamaged, up to the point where the engine catches fire.

 

Possible spoiler below regarding engine hit points, threshold values, and fires--don't click if you don't want to know!

 

I've adjusted the hit points and threshold values so an engine basically stops working and catches fire when about 14% of its hit points have been expended. Most engines have between 600 to 850 hit points.

 

Edited September 23, 2011 by Herr Prop-Wasche

[DukeIronHand 8]

Thanks HPW for the info.

[+Polovski 460]

Fuel leaks are there (as are oil, coolant). Sometimes from different locations but some could be small /feint. Also check the effects slider make sure it's on 5.

[Olham 164]

1) If you are hit in the fuel tank there is no visual or graphic clue (i.e., white vapor trail) ...

Chance of fire while flying with a fuel leak?

I have seen light grey trails behind other planes; not sure if it was fuel.

With a fuel leakage, you would almost certainly catch fire, so you need to cut the engine immediately

and perform a glide down to earth.

I have had fire popping up after the tank being hit.

 

Does the sim's DM model oil leaks?

My Albatros D.II's engine recently got hit and sounded clunky, without cutting out immediately.

Fuel was okay, no leakage. (Press F5 to check).

So I fought down my Nieuport 24 and then turned towards our nearby field.

The engine soon sounded weaker and weaker, and finally cut out.

I guess that was an oil leakage.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Olham

[DukeIronHand 8]

Thank you gentlemen for the additional information.

 

Think I'll have to fly some QC missions, go to outside view sometimes, and allow myself to be shot up for some experimentation.

[DukeIronHand 8]

Well, I did some testing.

Hardly scientific but interesting to me.

 

Using an Alb/D III I fly straight and level at 75mph vs. 3 Sop/Camels with veteran pilots.

 

Most of their attacks came from the rear or rear quarters.

 

I was amazed at how often the fuel tank was holed with the fuel quickly draining out (checked with the HUD screen)and stopping the engine.

 

Out of 8 tries the tank was holed in most - I started checking (remembering!)on my third shoot down. That was with the first HPW DM as I forgot to activate the HPW Ultimate.

Next gonna try the HPW Ultimate DM and then the stock

Edited September 28, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[Olham 164]

I still think that the Albatros models have too many engine failures and pierced tanks.

The tank was between engine and pilot. The engine was a robust inline engine.

I'd like to hear from people who have read more about Jastas with Albatros , how

often they had such failures. In OFF I have them most of the times I have scraps.

 

But then - they didn't have that many scraps in RL, I guess?

[DukeIronHand 8]

I remember this debate coming up in the old RB3D days - and argued quite heatedly.

 

Understanding the power of machines guns and the rather flimsy nature of WW1 aircraft (I remind myself of this by looking at drawings and photos of A/C without the fabric on) there is not much that stops a round on first impact except the pilot, fuel tank, and engine IMHO.

 

I will try, as time allows, using other A/C besides the Alb series. With assorted DM's - also with the stock effects.xml not Creaghorns reduced effects.xml (which I normally use) to look for visual damage clues.

That is possibly why the visual component is lacking in my set-up?

 

HPW - you must have done much experimentation - what did you find?

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Thank you guy's for your comments and observations. All is appreciated.

 

I'm particularly happy about your questions regarding the fueltank. Whenever I release any of my damage mods, I always consider them to be works in progress. With the Ultimate DM, one of the areas that I was still unsure of was the damage to the fuel tanks. I gather that many of you feel that the fuel tanks get punctured too easily in the current version of the DM? Does it apply to all aircraft or just some? I can make adjustments to some or all of the aircraft to lessen the number and/or severity of the fuel leaks, if desired.

[Hasse Wind 46]

HPW, I've been using your damage mods for a long time, and I think it they produce quite satisfactory results. But then I tend to fly more two-seaters than fighters, and I probably get shot to pieces less than our most aggressive fighter jockeys.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Ah, run away to fight another day! My family's motto!

[Hasse Wind 46]

Ah, run away to fight another day! My family's motto!

 

I prefer the phrase "Discretion is the better part of valour." It sounds better than "running away".

[DukeIronHand 8]

I will certainly let you know HPW as to the "feel" of your Ultimate DM vs the stock DM. "Feel" because, as you know, this is not a "hard science" via my testing methods.

 

In further thought, and thinking about the structure of WW1 aircraft, I still stick with the pilot, engine, fuel tank, as the main reasons for a shoot down.

In my initial tests the fuel tank was holed alot - I guess what really was surprising was how fast the tank emptied out (10 seconds or less). But I suppose we can explain this away by the tank losing pressure? Sounds good.

 

Though all pilots who flew or fell in combat didn't record their thoughts (or reasons for their shoot down) we have enough book readers here to maybe get a pattern.

 

For MvR, IIRC, his tank was holed once and he was wounded twice - fatally the second time.

 

For Arthur Lee of "No Parachute" fame he was wounded once - though minor he wanted to land immediately - and I believe his tank was holed forcing a landing two or three times?

 

For both many bullet holes in their wings and fuselage are recorded - 29+ for Lee on one flight - and he was not aware of it until he landed.

 

LvR - I believe in his shoot down he was wounded - the other being a wing failure in his Triplane.

 

Mannock - apparently a fuel tank fire.

 

On the subject of MvR I have a book on his combat reports. That may shed some light, generally, on the cause of his victims demise.

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

Sounds good, Duke. I look forward to hearing the results of your research.

[+Polovski 460]

Fuel loss from direct hits will vary plus don't forget if you sit there flying straight in tests you WILL get hits all over the "target" area. All pilots know where to aim just some can get more on target. The fuel tank in the DM is usually where the main tank is in real life where possible - often near the pilot or near the engine etc. Normally you are jinking to avoid getting holes of course.

 

There are many "empty" areas for bullets to pass through, craft are wood and canvas of course so basically in real life many bullets will travel through until they hit something that stops them - you (partially), the fuel tank, oil tank, engine or perhaps a metal cowl or strut. We carefully represent that by allowing parts to be seen from the rear at some angles.

 

As far as I know CFS3 engine doesn't allow for bullets to go through damage boxes, although you can link them to give very rough % split but we try to avoid that. So we have to allow some bleed from the rear.

 

We could in theory shrink the boxes so they are much smaller than the actual area the object takes up - and this would make it tougher. Some people will not like the toughness then and it's harder to vary if the model itself has hard coded boxes. HPW can beef the Phase 3 damage amounts as he has in his mods, and as we had previously in Phase 1 and 2, or we can beef it some by shrinking actual damage boxes to be smaller than the parts (MAY be possible in P4 depending on other changes) but of course then it is hard coded more - we shall see anyway.

 

Engine's can fail from damage and oil can leak etc. Oil pressure gauge is on some craft (plus dark smoke behind helps ;))

[DukeIronHand 8]

I have no complaints about the DM...stock or Ultimate.

 

I also know little about how the DM works, in fact, I do not wish to know.

Knowing too much about the game mechanics takes away some of the "magic" for me.

 

For example: I like the thought that the massive fuel loss is, in fact, the tank losing pressure which, of course, happened in real life. It works well in my mind.

On that thought be kind of cool if the gravity tank (used mostly on Britsh planes I believe) could be modeled. Olhams the pro here but I do not think the Alb series had gravity tanks?

 

My interest is how OFF tries to simulate (or emulate) real life as much as possible - in this case watching how an aircraft takes, and reacts, to damage.

 

So in my "tests" I am more curious how the two DM's feel to me and my perception of "how it really was" in the skies over France.

 

They also double nicely as graphics settings tests and in trying to observe how OFF displays visible damage.

Edited September 28, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[+Polovski 460]

I agree knowing too much spoils the magic, something that curses you get when start digging into things as a developer. But saying that Phase 4 has us enjoying flying again so something must be good :)

[Olham 164]

As for the tank: when it was a pressurized tank (like in the Albatros), any piercing, even above the fuel level,

would lead to a dying engine very quickly (if I understand that correct).

So it's difficult to say what to do - I guess we have by far more very dangerous scraps than the RL pilots had.

So I don't know if I should vote for smaller hit boxes. Maybe a little smaller.

 

As for the engine: here I would really like to know, what the WW1 pilot wrote about engine damage.

I only found a lot about that in Arthur Gould Lee's book; they often had dud engines, even without enemy fire.

I guess, a pusher's engine was exposed a lot more?

I also guess, that the length of a plywood fuselage together with wooden ribs WOULD irritate the rounds on impact.

It must be hard to know all the various possible types of engine damage, and their consequences.

 

But how often did the engines get damaged in air combat?

Does anybody know for the various types of aircraft? Who read all the books about that?

Edited September 28, 2011 by Olham

[DukeIronHand 8]

Well Herr Olham it would appear your long held suspicions are exactly right - at least to me.

 

In doing my "tests" (flying straight and level on autopilot) vs 3 Sop/Cams I used the first HPW DM and the HPW Ultimate DM.

I have not done stock yet because of the big (to me) news that I wished to come here and report.

 

The Alb DIII, at least for me, very quickly suffers a fuel tank hit, followed by a quick loss of fuel (per the HUD) and associated engine shut down, almost every time.

I have not tried the others in the Alb series yet.

 

I did the Pfalz DIII, Fok/Dr.1 and Fok/DVII and they almost never suffered a fuel tank hit prior to something else destroying them from rear attacks.

 

Did see some short lived flames(?) but no tank hit per the HUD.

 

Does someone else wish to double check this?

 

Edit: Double post + clarification

Edited September 29, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[Olham 164]

Thank you for testing, Duke - should be valuable info for Herr Prop-Wasche.

 

For the engine damage, you got to have rather head-to-head engagements.

There, the Albatros engine is suffering more damage IMHO than any other craft I have flown.

Now I know the engine is in the front - but all others (except the pushers) are too.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Olham

[DukeIronHand 8]

Well actually it is the fuel tank being hit, emptied, and quickly shutting the engine down.

 

If the engine is also being hit I am not sure how to check percentage of damage via the in-game screens.

 

Not sure how I could do frontal attacks in a "semi-controlled" fashion to see if,in fact, it is the engine also, or just the Alb fuel tank giving apparent problems.

 

Got to try the stock DM also. Its a rainy day here so I may get a chance.

 

Edit: Spelling.

Edited September 29, 2011 by DukeIronHand

[DukeIronHand 8]

Olham do you use the HPW damage mod(s)?

 

It would appear that the Alb/D III fuel tank "issue" is a HPW DM thing.

Again I did not try the other Alb models.

 

I could not duplicate the apparent problem with the stock DM.

 

As a salute to the stock DM I thought it was cool that when the pilot was wounded bullet holes appeared around the cockpit - this probably occurred with the HPW DM also but I was too busy timing the fuel loss.

[Olham 164]

Duke, I'm using the HPW DM.

 

But to say that again: my problem is not the tank hits.

My problem is, that the engine is getting damaged too often IMHO.

[DukeIronHand 8]

Duke, I'm using the HPW DM.

 

But to say that again: my problem is not the tank hits.

My problem is, that the engine is getting damaged too often IMHO.

 

Perhaps a dumb question but do you check the fuel gauge (F5/HUD) every time you experience engine issues in the Alb?

I must say I am very curious now.

 

Is there a gauge or key to check engine damage specifically?