Wodin 0 Posted September 30, 2011 I posted this over at Sim HQ as I couldn't get on here for abit for some reason. After reading about the new bits and bobs for P4 I'm even more excited about it. So here is my immersion post. Been playing the other sim recently with the career mode. It looks beautiful and the flight models on the whole feel right, though DR1's flying with half a top missing wing seems odd and you can't mention these things as you get shouted down. Anyway as I was saying the planes are beautiful...though the scenery for me is to comic book like, especially the towns and no mans land looks aswful. This does effect immersion to a point but not the amount I felt was missing in the sim. I fly a mission and then have no real enthusiasm to fly another, that lets get out there and have anyother go is missing. It for me just doesn't have any immersion at all. Why I can't really be sure, maybe the spawning enemy\planes so you know that they don't exist once they disappear so you know there is nothing else going on in the world. The career mode is OK and the chrome to try and give it some immersion like the character bio's don't really work, it's something you read once maybe and then as it just gets recycled anyway it soon becomes something you don't look at.. I don't want to be told about my character, I have an imagination for that, I do want the world I fly in to feel like it's WW1 though. This is where OFF P3 shines and shines brightly. A whole war is going on outside your cockpit. Planes are out doing missions that have nothing todo with you. There is an actual ground war going on aswell, even to the point of matching the real life dates of particular battles. It has the buckets full of immersion goodness. More immersion than any other sim I've played, as all the others except one or two others which are renowned as classics are very sterile. Thats the word, sterile. It's like the beautiful woman who is great to look at but has zero personality. With this in mind OFF P4 is the most eagerly anticipated sim for me so far out of 27 years of gaming. P.S I would have posted this in the other sims forum but I'd just get ripped to bits. To scared to say anything negaticve about that game;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast 153 Posted September 30, 2011 Well said that man... I must admit I cannot wait for P4 me I would pre-order and pay early so I can get it. Not tried the other one but I have seen some video's and yes it does look pretty it just doesn't look as gritty as OFF if thats the right wording. Also it would cost me a fortune to get all the planes where as OFF has them all in plenty... and whats happening on the ground for example you see gas attacks troops marching etc. not sure if these are in the other one but it does make a lot up for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) The forum here was offline for about 1 1/2 days, Wodin. As for your experiences with the other sim: I can only ditto that. I'm trying it out recently, and I like the planes I can fly very much; I am also amazed about the rivers and the light effects - but that is mostly it. I guess there is a lot of potential in there, but it will be a lot of work. And if their engine does not allow to have all the aircraft around you all "really there", or if that would lead to a collapse of any normal rig - then OFF will be the clear "Number 1" for me. Cause that is, what creates the immersion. That's what transforms it from a game or sim to this extraordinary experience. Edited September 30, 2011 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted September 30, 2011 Nothing has been able to top the immersion in RB3D and OFF P3 for me yet. However, the other sim certainly does some things very well. But it looks like P4 will set the standards for WW1 sims (and others) for years to come with its attention to historical details and general immersion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
themightysrc 5 Posted September 30, 2011 It seems to me, that if you're an OFF fan, you're probably a scholar of WWI, and therefore will not accept a 2nd best campaign, or no campaign (thinking of FE). Whilst I appreciate - from what I've read - that TSTMNBN has a wonderful flight model, that's not the be all and end all of a WWI sim. Even hardened RoFers (oops! said it!) saying that if you want a WWI experience, then OFF is the choice, whilst defending - and quite properly - the flight model in RoF. The fact that it's still a shadow of reality is probably not territory that they'd wish to visit, as the warm up procedure for an SE5a quoted elsewhere recently attests, however you take as you find. I'm excited by P4 mainly because of what I've seen of P3, and the fact that it could be better. Much of that is down to my meagre rig, so I get pauses and hangs occasionally, which is also I'd guess down to my setup, but there's still enough clunk in there to remove to ensure that P4 can - and I hope, will - be a quantum improvement again. That's the promise, along with more of those lovely kites and the upgraded campaign. I'm looking forward to it, and hope that I'll have another job by then so I can afford to buy the damn thing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UK_Widowmaker 571 Posted October 1, 2011 I have always been the hardest slammer of the other sim...the Dual-Core issue with W7 was a real pain...they've fixed that now...I'm with you guys however. It's very pretty aircraft, and water...the reflections are like FSX in many ways. But even the campaign mode, has done little to improve the Immersion...and it feels to me, like a Graphically nice version of FE. (I actually prefer FE out of the two sims however) The fact you got naff all aircraft, unless you buy the decent ones was extremely annoying...and then they bring out the ICE version...which REALLY annoyed me, as I had bought the original! I do feel, that we have been utterly spoilt by OBD. There is nothing in any sim that can compare to OFF's dynamic campaign (the best thing M$ ever did with a CFS sim)...shame about the rest of it! RB3D will always have a special place in my heart....what a wonderful game that was... OFF has already achieved classic status...with even more amazing things to come! The guys at OBD are perfectionists to say the least!...but often, when something is done with love..it outperforms, and outclasses the same thing that's made for $$$£££ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted October 1, 2011 . I agree completely. OFF is clearly a labor of love. . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted October 1, 2011 It seems to me, that if you're an OFF fan, you're probably a scholar of WWI, and therefore will not accept a 2nd best campaign, or no campaign This is an important point. A great FM and DM is not enough to make a great single player experience. You need much more than that for a career mode to feel truly realistic and immersive. If there's no decent campaign system, the sim is really suitable mostly for MP, or the occasional quick battle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellshade 110 Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) Rise of Flight does do some things very well. The flight model is amazing at giving the feeling of being in the air. The bounce of the plane as wind buffets hit it makes it harder to aim and keep a target lined up. The damage model is, frankly, second to none in my opinion. Watching planes fall apart in so many different ways is impressive. I remember having the support strut of my left wing shot away. The top left wing slowly bending upward under the pressure from the air until it couldn't take it anymore and snapped away. Classic, really. The pilots using hand signals and looking around in the cockpits also adds a lot of life to the immediate dogfighting experience. It adds to the realism of the moment. The rivers, lakes and general water effects are stunning to see. The tracer effects are fabulous. The rain effects when in the cockpit are fantastic and again, do a lot to add to the immediate experience of feeling like you are flying in poor weather. RoF recently went Free to Play - so you download the sim for free and just buy the planes you wish to fly. So starts off less expensive than OFF now but adds up fast if you want to have any choice in the planes you fly They also have heavy bombers for both the Allies and the Germans. Quite cool, to be honest. (I know they are coming for P4 and I can't wait!) I also like their bomber / recon missions where you can actually change the artillary fire at your direction from within a two seater. Gotta admit it's a new feature I haven't seen anywhere else. But OFF has a brilliance and draw all of it's own. The OFF Dynamic Campaign crushes the RoF beta Career Mode. Real flights on real missions, weather you fly in their direction or not, definately trumps spawned aircraft who's only purpose is to show up on queue for you. Granted, the Career Mode is beta, but it's not going to catch up to OFF. OFFs number of historically accurate squadrons is staggering. Just going through the list of possible squadrons to choose to fly for in OFF gives you an idea of the massive scope of the sim. RoF choices from squadrons in Career Mode are substantially fewer. The number of planes that OFF can put into the sky at one time also makes you feel like you are fighting in a real war. In RoF Career Mode, I always feel like I'm stuck on some quiet part of the front with only the occassional enemy aircraft showing up. In OFF it's not that uncommon to come across enemy Aces. In RoF, though they just put that feature in, I suspect they have a far smaller list of Aces to draw from because I have yet to meet any. Coming across an Ace is always extremely exciting and gets your blood up. OFF has a complete dynamic weather system OFF has HUGE number of variables in the Workshop to change around to your liking. OFF requires a less demanding machine to run on OFF has the option to submit a claim form just like they did in the real war. In RoF you are automatically given credit for it. No tension as to if you will get credit or not over the next few days or weeks. I have to say the customer relations between OBD and it's customers are second to none. That's a real biggie. In the end, it's all about personal preference and what you want out of a sim. My tastes change on a regular basis, so which sim I fly depends on what kind of experience that I want. OFF really brings me the War. RoF brings me the dogfight. From what information the Devs have leaked about P4 and the screenshots, they obviously are determined to make OFF the most complete WWI air war experience available anywhere. I have no doubts they are skilled and dedicated enough to do just that. My credit card is ready for pre-ordering OFF Phase 4 the moment it becomes possible to do so. I have to say that OBD is one of the few companies in the world that I will buy a product from, sight unseen, simply on the reputation of the developers. I have no fears of that ever changing. Hellshade Edited October 1, 2011 by Hellshade Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 2, 2011 Hellshade, you are right in both "positive lists" about both sims. And I'm happy I mustn't decide anything - I have them both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellshade 110 Posted October 2, 2011 Someone in another forum posted the question "When did you buy Rise of Flight?" I almost answered 'Two years before it was ready'. hehe. RoF has indeed come a long way since it was first introduced and I consider it to be a fine experience in many ways. OFF too has evolved over time. Though the next iteration of OFF P4 seems poised to be more of a revolution than simply the evolution of the series. I too enjoy both, finally. It will be interesting to watch them both advance as time moves on. Ultimately, we virtual pilots always win as each sim seeks to curry our favor with improvements and new features. Hellshade Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellshade 110 Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) One area that I think both sims could use some work on is the AI combat. OFFs AI is currently very bloodthristy in that if the AI gets into a fight with you, it pretty much doesn't stop until one of you is destroyed. RoF AI is almost the opposite. I've seen enemy AI make a single pass at friendly AI, take their shots for "King and Country" and then continue on their merry way, having done their part in the war for the day. This would seem more realistic, except there are times when RoF enemy AI never seems to switch over from "patrol mode" into "attack mode". For instance I once attacked a Observation Balloon even though a couple hundred feet above it was a patrol of 5 scouts circling it. I downed the balloon but not a single member of the patrol swooped down to give me hell over it. So I climbed up to the lowest member of the patrol and took some shots at him. That one engaged, but all the rest continued to patrol high above, offering no assistance at all to their wingman. You'd think at least one would come down to help while a few others remained high up. By the time I finished with that scout, I was so low to the ground that I wasn't going to climb all the way back up again to try and grab the others. I flew away with a balloon and plane kill while several apparently otherwise occupied scouts lazily circled overhead. Speaking of the ground, OFF and RoF also seem to be polar opposites currently with how the AI fights when close to the ground. OFF AI flies more conservatively, being slightly easier to kill when low to the earth because they are not quite as aggressive, while RoF AI doesn't seem to give much of a hoot how close to the ground it is. They can often perform all kinds of manuevers that they simply don't have the alititude for. While this can occassionally make for some exciting low altitude combat, it has it's downside too. I've witnessed a fair number of RoF AI crashing their plane into the ground or buildings because they were flying far too aggressively at such low altitudes. Those AI that don't engage in hyper aggressive tactics tend to fall into a near permanent right or left hand circle, making them easy prey if you've got the plane and skill to get a slight lead on them. I know Winder said something about the P4 AI getting much improved, especially flying at low altitudes. This is probably the feature I am looking forward to most in OFF. What I would really love to see is if it were possible, to keep the fights up high...where the enemy AI doesn't resort to long spiraling dives to escape you, bleeding off tremendous altitude and ending up almost on the deck before the real engagement begins. I would imagine that pilots only dove down that low if they were over their own lines, in an effort to escape if they were wounded or outmatched. I certainly wouldn't want to dive down into the range of a hundred enemy small arms weapons just to escape the twin guns of my adversary. I'll probably catch some flak for this but hopefully it'll be taken in the spirit it is ment. I think the best AI of the sims I fly is probably Wings of Prey. I hear Battle of Brittain II is awesome, but I don't have that so I can't compare. Please don't think I mean to say that WoP AI is the best on the market. I'm just saying it appears to be the best of the three sims that I fly, in my personal opinion. In Wings of Prey, the AI fights pretty realistically no matter what altitude and diving isn't their only method to throw off my aim. They are quite fond of barrel rolls, tight turns, split S, etc. I've gotten into several fights where the enemy AI and I were doing a long series of spiraling barrel rolls around each other at close quarters, both slowing down just enough to try and force the other plane into the lead. Of course such things may not have been possible in WWI crates and the recovery of altitude during WWII was a much easier thing to accomplish than during WWI. So that gives the AI programmers a lot more advantage in giving their planes more options in how to respond. At any rate, as long as we were discussing sims strengths and weaknesses in terms of immersion, I figured AI deserved to be a part of the discussion. I can't imagine the quality of the dogfights themselves can't lend or take away considerably from the immersion of the sim depending on how good they are. Hellshade Edited October 2, 2011 by Hellshade Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shiloh 12 Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) This is very informative guys - thanks for taking the time to post. I too have both but I never even got through the tutorials on RoF. I was a little peeved that I had to purchase the craft that I wanted to fly and that definitely turned me off to that sim. I never want to feel like I'm being 'nickled-and-dimed' with anything. I just want to pay for something and enjoy it. Please correct me if I'm wrong but each craft is $7.99 or so. That adds up quickly if you want to add 5-10 craft and many can't afford that. I had issues programming my joystick and after countless hours online and trying different things I simply gave up. I posted on the forums and nobody helped me out. I thought the graphics/effects were absolutely stunning though and taking off/landing was an adventure not for the faint-hearted. I really think I could enjoy it over time but the little things on the front-end turned me off enough where I didn't want to play it - at least not for now when my time to fly is so limited and I just want to fly, not feel aggravated. I already had OFF and I love most things about it so here I am and enjoying every minute of it. Sure I've had my bumps with having to do a few re-installs and such but the enjoyment factor far outweighs any aggravation I've experienced. And when I needed help I emailed the OBD staff, and was promptly answered back with solutions that fixed my issues - what more can you ask for regarding support? I'm very new to flight sims (6 months) so perhaps my views will change but for now I've found my niche and I'm sticking with her. And with P4 coming out (any day now? ) there's so much to look forward to. Edited October 2, 2011 by Shiloh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted October 2, 2011 Good AI programming must be one of the hardest bits in flight sims. Winder recently announced, that OFF AI will be much improved. Or did I dream that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasse Wind 46 Posted October 2, 2011 No Olham, you didn't. Or if you did, we were in the same dream. Looking forward to P4 AI. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
