USN Phantom questions

[skwabie 0]

gonna retry the Column5 S, early and late this week, but the Current Gen2 S is based on the Stock J. i would imagine if TK adds the S with SF2NA that the early S w/o slats would be heavily based offa the J and why i was working with that one. but if the Column 5 version has DECM and doesnt give me a headache converting, could give it a try.

 

Liking the fake pilot ecm best tho, stock f-4 models have the best quality yet and reckon skins are gonna be easily compatible with future tk releases... plus the big when and if for sf2NA

Edited January 9, 2012 by skwabie

[+daddyairplanes 10,252]

yes the big if..... a non slatted S could be done easily with ini edit of the J. both the Gen 2 N and S are based offa stock TW B_67 and J, so its logical TK would go the easy route and do the same. would just need to change the outer wing for the slatted S and i would think a change up in the lod putting the later E wing would do the trick. much like McDonnell Douglas did in real life! as it is naval skins are proving very interchangable with name changing.

[mppd 16]

I could not begin to guess what TK will or won't do for future F-4s for you guys. I'll stick with what we have already. I will reinstall SF2 to fit the DECM antennas to 2nd gen for you, but is the intake shape so different on the F-4s he made for this series?

[skwabie 0]

hi mppd can't see any difference on intake.

if it's too much trouble though one can pretty much take the gen1 f-4j ecm and put it on gen2 i reckon

[mppd 16]

Well that's what I did but I am told that it does not look the same on the 2nd gen version. Will check tonight for sure. Can't remember if SF2-V is still installed or not. Thanks for the input though.

 

Mike

[mppd 16]

SF2 Phantom looks pretty much the same 3D model at a glance to me. Here is the file for both the F-4N and F-4J if anyone wants to add it to their F-4N or J install for SF2. The F-4J DECM antenna is shorter of course. Updated.

Edited January 11, 2012 by mppd

[skwabie 0]

thanks so much mppd!

 

 

ah little problem, there's a small gap between the ecm and intake

 

but heck can live with it no sweat. ALQ-126 here i come

Edited January 11, 2012 by skwabie

[mppd 16]

Updated above - the J- version I guess was not centered. Just tried it in game. Sorry - hey, it's a freebie anyway, not an official release!

[Blade 353]

Updated above - the J- version I guess was not centered. Just tried it in game. Sorry - hey, it's a freebie anyway, not an official release!

 

Finally! After nearly four years of waiting...

 

Thank you!

[skwabie 0]

Updated above - the J- version I guess was not centered. Just tried it in game. Sorry - hey, it's a freebie anyway, not an official release!

:yes:

[skwabie 0]

[mppd 16]

Do you folks need the round antenna at the leading edge of the fin tip, or is that on one of the default F-4Bs? Slotted stabilizer on the F-4N and pinned inboard leading edge flap, plus the drooped ailerons (don't think this will work as an .ini edit...)

[+daddyairplanes 10,252]

the fintip antennea is on the F-4B_67, although in the pics i have been seeing so far not many B models past 67 or even all N's had it. also i thought only the J and S had slotted stabs, not the N. fixing the inboard leading edge may be achievable in the data ini though, just a matter of restrcting its movement to zero i would think though i never quite dived in that deep. as for drooped ailerons, if your talking parked on ground, no havent seen it. if your tallking during landing with the flaps down, yes its there though dont know if the angles are correct.

[Blade 353]

fixing the inboard leading edge may be achievable in the data ini though, just a matter of restrcting its movement to zero i would think though i never quite dived in that deep. as for drooped ailerons, if your talking parked on ground, no havent seen it. if your tallking during landing with the flaps down, yes its there though dont know if the angles are correct.

 

Fixing the inboard LEFs is not a problem. IIRC all that needs to be done is deleting the [LeftLEFlapInner2] and [RightLEFlapInner2] entries.

The drooping ailerons might be more difficult. The F-4J has different nodes for that (drooping_aileron_right and left), which the F-4B lacks, and that may make a difference.

[mppd 16]

TK has indeed already included the drooping aileron movement with full flap extension. What is interesting is that the effect remains even if the model node name is changed to just aileron_left/right. The drooping_aileron_left/right doesn't seem to really be a part. What is missing is the pitch down effect that the drooping aileron had in real life. Can this be simulated in any way? Any other aerodynamic effect escapes me compared to F-4 models without the drooping entry in the data.ini file, at least in normal flight mode.

 

The slotted stabilizer was incorporated on the F-4J from the start, but was also determined to have been of benefit to the F-4B models as well. It was reportedly incorporated on block 26 airplanes on the MacAir production line (starting with BuNo 152995) which first flew in March 1966, and was subsequently retrofitted to most fleet F-4Bs by about 1968-69, at the same time that the pinned inboard L.E. flap/drooping aileron mod was incorporated on fleet F-4Bs. Certainly the F-4N model had all these mods.

Edited January 12, 2012 by mppd

[Blade 353]

The drooping_aileron_left/right doesn't seem to really be a part.

 

You mean they are not parts of the model? I just checked the 1st gen F-4J.lod and I could find 'drooping_aileron_right' and 'drooping_aileron_left' in it.

[mppd 16]

Can't figure out what they are. Eliminate them by component method, and change the drooping_ entry to just aileron_left/right, and no visual change in the 3D model. At any rate, can the nose-down pitch change be simulated?

[Blade 353]

Can't figure out what they are. Eliminate them by component method, and change the drooping_ entry to just aileron_left/right, and no visual change in the 3D model. At any rate, can the nose-down pitch change be simulated?

 

I think the ‘aerodynamic effect’ (if that’s what you refer to) of the drooping ailerons can be simulated by simply copying over the relevant entries from the F-4J_Data.ini, but you won’t see the ailerons droop, because the F-4B model doesn’t support that animation. At least this is the conclusion I came to when I tried to mod a late F-4B/F-4N using the SF2 F-4B_67.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Blade

[mppd 16]

Sure it works. I just made the 1st gen F-4B ailerons droop with full flap extension using the same entries from the F-4J data.ini. Rename the aileron mesh part as drooping_aileron_left/right since that is the name of the ailerons on that model. No special animation for this. And I cannot detect any aerodynamic effect with flap extension - no pitch change, no nothin'. Perhaps in hard flight model mode, but too many planes act weird in that mode to me.

Edited January 13, 2012 by mppd

[Blade 353]

You are right, it works. This is also as far as I got when I last tried to mod it. But do they move as ailerons as well? I found that if they droop they don’t move like ailerons. It seems that visually you can have drooping ‘ailerons’ (appearing like ‘flaps’, because they don’t move like ailerons) or have moving ailerons which don’t droop (as in the unmodded F-4B), but not both at the same time (due to the F-4B models lacking the dedicated nodes).

My conclusion is that by editing the F-4B_Data.ini, the in-game F-4B can have ‘pseudo drooping ailerons’ which have the same effect as those of the in-game F-4J, but they cannot be simulated visually. At least I couldn’t succeed (though I’m still hoping).

Edited January 13, 2012 by Blade

[mppd 16]

Yup, it works just fine. No dedicated part nor animation slot required. Only tried my ancient 1st gen F-4B with the entries from the J- model though. Will try a question on TK's TW forum about the pitch change and see if someone can help.

[Blade 353]

OK, I give up. I can create drooping ailerons which droop, but in that case they don’t move (apart from the drooping). Mike, what changes did you make in the data.ini?

 

I added the [LeftAileronDroop] and [RightAileronDroop] components (from the F-4J_Data.ini) and changed their node names (‘aileron_left/right’ instead of ‘drooping_aileron_left/right’). I pasted the following lines (also copied from the F-4J_Data.ini) into the bottom of the [LeftAileron] and [RightAileron] sections:

 

HasFlapDownSetting=TRUE
FlapDownMaxDeflection=16.5
FlapDownMinDeflection=-16.5

Where did I go wrong?

[mppd 16]

You are missing one small detail: TK actually named the regular moving aileron parts as "drooping_aileron_left" and "drooping_aileron_right". Make sure that these these items are in your data.ini file:

 

[LeftWing]

.

.

SystemName[xxx]=LeftAileron

.

.

SystemName[xxx]=LeftAileronDroop

 

 

// Control Surfaces ---------------------------------------------------------

.

.

[LeftAileronDroop]

SystemType=HIGHLIFT_DEVICE

CLiftdc=0.1314

CDdc=0.0128

Cmdc=-0.0020

DeltaStallAlpha=-1.08

AreaRatio=1.000

DeploymentMethod=MANUAL_WITH_BLOWBACK

Setting[1].Angle=0.0

Setting[1].DeployValue=113.2

Setting[1].RetractValue=120.9

Setting[2].Angle=16.5

Setting[2].DeployValue=113.2

Setting[2].RetractValue=120.9

MaxDeflection=16.5

MinDeflection=0.0

ControlRate=0.2

ModelNodeName=drooping_aileron_left

ReverseModelOrientation=TRUE

 

and the respective right handed entries.

 

These are from the 1st gen F-4B but I believe that they are basically the same in the 2nd gen version - check the F-4J data.ini. Make sense? The normal control surfaces aileron entries also use the mesh name "drooping_aileron_left" and right. Then it works.

[Blade 353]

I also checked the node names, so that’s not what I’m missing. Indeed, the 1st gen F-4B has ‘drooping_aileron_left/right’ and doesn’t have ‘aileron_left/right’, but in case of the 2nd gen F-4B it’s vice versa. I can’t check the lod anymore (because TK made them inaccessible), but the data.ini calls for ‘aileron_left/right’. If I use ‘drooping_aileron_left/right’ the ailerons don’t droop (suggesting that the 2nd gen F-4B does lack nodes with these names). So I guess the root of the problem lies elsewhere. Otherwise everything you wrote makes sense, I also made the same changes.

[mppd 16]

O.K. now I understand. My apologies. I can't figure out how to make this work in the 2nd gen sim. Just another reason I keep going back to the original series. Sorry. I even tried importing the original gen 1 .LOD files and still it would not work. You might ask TK himself at the Thirdwire Forums but he apparently does not want you modding his sim anymore.