In need of a 'Spin Doctor"....

[Hauksbee 103]

I have always understood that recovering from a spin simply required the application of opposite rudder. Lately I've been spending my flying hours in an Albatros. An in-line engine without the inherent vices of a rotary. But when I get reckless chasing DH-2's, the inevitable spin develops, and the rudder will not save me. Where am I going wrong?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Hauksbee

[Olham 164]

Yeah, she's more tricky there. I only got her out of the spins by

 

- reducing throttle to half

- pushing her nose downwards

- using counter-rudder and ailerons to pull her out of that

 

I only pulled out of the dive, when she was flying stable again.

If you haven't got enough space below you, you might be lost though.

 

The DH-2 needs a lot of learning and flying experience, and I admire a man like Major Hawker,

who was able to fly equally well sa MvR flew his Albatros, in a long turn fight.

Von Richthofen only got him, when Hawker had to turn back for his lines due to a lack of fuel.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Olham

[Olham 164]

Here is an excerpt from WIKIPEDIA about the spinning and Major Hawker:

 

First Fighter Squadron

Promoted to Major early in 1916 Hawker was placed in command of the RFC's first (single seater) fighter squadron,

Number 24 based at Hounslow Heath Aerodrome and flying the Airco DH.2 pusher. After two fatalities in recent flying

accidents, the new fighter soon earned a reputation for spinning; its rear mounted rotary engine and sensitive controls

made it very responsive. Hawker countered this worry by taking a DH.2 up over the Squadron base and, in front of the

Squadron pilots, put the aircraft through a series of spins, each time recovering safely.

After landing he carefully described to all pilots the correct procedures to recover from a spin. Once the pilots became

used to the DH.2's characteristics, confidence in the aircraft rose quickly, as they came to appreciate its maneuverability.

 

And here is WIKI about the spin and it's various forms and recoveries:

 

http://en.wikipedia....in_%28flight%29

 

...to recover from an upright spin, the following generic procedure may be used: Power is first reduced to idle and the ailerons are neutralized.

Then, full opposite rudder (that is, against the yaw) is added and held to counteract the spin rotation, and the elevator control is moved briskly

forward to reduce the angle of attack below the critical angle. Depending on the airplane and the type of spin, the elevator action could be a

minimal input before rotation ceases, or in other cases the elevator control may have to be moved to its full forward position to effect recovery

from the upright spin. Once the rotation has stopped, the rudder must be neutralized and the airplane returned to level flight. This procedure

is sometimes called PARE, for Power idle, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite the spin and held, and Elevator through neutral.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Olham

[Hauksbee 103]

Thanks, Olham, but it's the Albatros I'm talking about. ( I might have thrown you off by misspelling 'chasing'. Dropped the 'h') 'Lethal spins I expect from the DH-2; hardly worth mentioning. But do you have spin problems with the Alb?

[Olham 164]

Honestly, I never amanged to get an Albatros into a spin. It is the most peaceful craft to fly IMHO.

 

Spins mostly occur, when the aircraft is in a climb and looses so much speed, that the airflow over the wing doesn't carry it anymore.

So you need to realise, that you cannot chase another aircraft very well in a permanent climb.

The good DH-2 pilots perform great climbing turns - but always only after rushing downwards first and thereby collecting good energy.

 

All these aircraft were rather underpowered for the weight they had to carry.

So they don't receive enough energy from their engines for long climbs. They need to gain it elsewhere.

And the only other way to gain energy is to dive.

 

Whenever I realise, that my opponent will be able to climb away from me, I don't follow his climb, but only his direction.

I have to remain lower, but try to remain under his craft, as close as possible.

He will either come down again to attack me (and then I always fly in his direction, to make his approach as short as possible for him);

or he will fly away. I know I can't have them all.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Olham

[Hauksbee 103]

Spins mostly occur, when the aircraft is in a climb and looses so much speed...

You've certainly identified how I get into these nasty corners. Thinking back, it's when I'm in a climbing turn where the target is just beyond TrackIR's ability to look up. I get fixated on the target. But when the spin develops, I'm doomed. I've cut power, released the stick so it can find center, and tried opposite rudder. I've often considered getting a set of rudder pedals. Anybody know if they are more effective than a twist stick?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Hauksbee, rudder pedals makes OFF into a whole new sim. Next to TrackIR they will affect the greatest positive change to your current flying experience. I wish I would have gotten them many years earlier than I did.

 

.

[Hauksbee 103]

Hauksbee, rudder pedals makes OFF into a whole new sim. Next to TrackIR they will affect the greatest positive change to your current flying experience. I wish I would have gotten them many years earlier than I did.

Thanks, RAF_Lou. That seals it then; I'll start poking around on eBay and Amazon.

[Olham 164]

Well, I think Lou meant the whole "aviation feeling" is getting more realistic.

I found out, that the rudder on my T. Flight Stick X is as effective as any pedals - so you may not gain any better rudder effect.

 

What you left out in your "anti-spinning-action" was the pushing down of the nose.

It is essential for your aircraft to come back to some forward speed.

In that situation, that can best be gained by going into a dive.

And then you shall recover.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Actually Olham, I did mean it is more effective, (as well as more realistic). Not in terms of range of rudder movement as that will be the same by twisiting the stick or pushing on the pedals, but in terms of being able to effectively use that entire range. Unlike WW2 and modern aircraft, the WWI kites not only respond well to a lot of rudder but require it in some maneuvers. It is very awkward, if not nearly impossible, to get full rudder when you need it and as smoothly as you need it by twisiting the stick because you tend to upset the other two axes in the process, (i.e. pitch and roll). I thought for years that the twist stick gave the same ability of control as pedals, but I was very wrong. Fly a plane like the Camel with a twist stick, then fly it with rudder pedals. You will be surprised how much more precisely you can finesse it to it's limits with the latter.

 

.

[Olham 164]

Ah yes, that makes perfect sense, Lou - thank you.

Shame on me - I do even have SAITEK rudder pedals, but found them always in the way under my table, when I don't fly.

I'll have to find a solution how to hang them on the wall, when they aren't used.

 

I had anyway sworn myself to install them when P4 comes out. So there's hope...

(Only I forgot again, how to get rid of the other functions, which would interfere with the stick - brakes or what it was).

[OLD NAVY 0]

Interesting discusions about recovering from spins. Took me back to navy flight school in 1944. Flight training included recovering from spins in the first couple of hours. After the solo the student practiced recovery on his solo practice. One lined up on a road and tryed to recover in two or three rotations still lined up on the road. I have practiced this manuveur in OFF several times ,especially when flying a new aircraft. I am really pleased with the OFF flight model. It feels like the real thing. What has been said about spin recovery in this discussion is valid and well presented. In OFF spins usually occur while climbing. In real life flying really dangerous spins occur following high speed stalls. World war biplanes weren't fast enough to create many high speed stall spins but the laws of air dynamics apply regardless of the speed. Thus, in a turn one must maintain a certain speed. One problem in a spin is determining the direction of rotation. Sometimes the pilot is confused and disorientated, especially in a high speed stall which may occut unexpectedly. My solution to that is practice. When you deliberatelly put yourself into a spin you use full rudder. The rotation follows the direction you pushed the rudder so recovering simply involves reversing the rudder. Having said all this, the most dangerous spin of all is the inverted spin. When you spin from an upside down position , the recovery movements are opposite what you would have done flying right side up. This manuveur is so dangerous that students are only allowed to practice it once or twice with an instructor . Talk about being confused. This is an odd feeling when your upside down. Again, you knew which rudder position put you into the spin so you should know how to get out. Come to think about it I never tried an inverted spin in OFF. I'll try it and report back. Maybe some of you OFF pilots should try it.. Get plenty of altitude.

[Britisheh 0]

Hi there Old Nay,

 

If you want a good spin, try the Dr.I The OFF DEV TEAM and I disagree on the flight characteristics or they just haven't got around to sorting it out ( too many things to do), so for some reason this ac is only perhaps second to the infamous Sopwith Camel eith regards to a spin, in the OFF setting. It has a particular liking for entering a spin on any high angle movement, almost regardless of speed, and then degrading into an inverted spin. Hopefully you are flying later than Sept and have the realistic opportunity for using a parachute. The only way I have rarely recovered from this is by applyijng full throtte, and opposite rudder. Mostly though it's a case of getting dizzy, and then having a so called "dirt nap"........

 

Cheers,

 

Britisheh

 

 

Interesting discusions about recovering from spins. Took me back to navy flight school in 1944. Flight training included recovering from spins in the first couple of hours. After the solo the student practiced recovery on his solo practice. One lined up on a road and tryed to recover in two or three rotations still lined up on the road. I have practiced this manuveur in OFF several times ,especially when flying a new aircraft. I am really pleased with the OFF flight model. It feels like the real thing. What has been said about spin recovery in this discussion is valid and well presented. In OFF spins usually occur while climbing. In real life flying really dangerous spins occur following high speed stalls. World war biplanes weren't fast enough to create many high speed stall spins but the laws of air dynamics apply regardless of the speed. Thus, in a turn one must maintain a certain speed. One problem in a spin is determining the direction of rotation. Sometimes the pilot is confused and disorientated, especially in a high speed stall which may occut unexpectedly. My solution to that is practice. When you deliberatelly put yourself into a spin you use full rudder. The rotation follows the direction you pushed the rudder so recovering simply involves reversing the rudder. Having said all this, the most dangerous spin of all is the inverted spin. When you spin from an upside down position , the recovery movements are opposite what you would have done flying right side up. This manuveur is so dangerous that students are only allowed to practice it once or twice with an instructor . Talk about being confused. This is an odd feeling when your upside down. Again, you knew which rudder position put you into the spin so you should know how to get out. Come to think about it I never tried an inverted spin in OFF. I'll try it and report back. Maybe some of you OFF pilots should try it.. Get plenty of altitude.

[Flyby PC 23]

Hey there Old Navy! Please tell us more of your flying history. It's always a pleasure and an honour to speak to a new veteran.

 

 

 

Apart from anything else it sounds like you need the "Honoured Veteran" added to you avatar.

[OLD NAVY 0]

Flyby PC:

 

I was in the US Navy Air Corp from 1943-1947. I checked my flight log and found I had 108 hours in the Stearman Biplane. I love biplanes and have always had a thing about World War I pilots. I think I got the flying bug reading those pulp mags about Spads and Fokkers while growing.up. I actually got to meet some of Colonel Biddle's grandsons. You can look him up in the OFF rosters. He was born in Philadelphia and survived the war. The Biddles are prominent Philadelphia business men. Anyway, I decided to go Navy because I didn't want to sleep in the mud. Instead, I learned to fly seaplanes and got wet and seasick. Incidently, this sim is fantastic. The way it handles the historical aspects of WWI aviation is noteworthy. I was a Red Baron addict and then discovered OFF Phase I and II. I'm a diehard fan.

[Flyby PC 23]

My father was RAF from 1933 to 1945, and trained as a wireless operator. He was only aircrew for a couple of years 1937 - 39, but he flew in biplanes, - Fairely Swordfish from Hal Far on Malta, but also in float Swordfish from Gibraltar in 1938. Unfortunately my dad died 35 years ago, but I'm sure you'd have had a lot to talk about. The Swordfish actually tranferred into the Navy in 1939, as part of the Fleet Air Arm, serving with distinction on carriers, but they were still RAF planes when my dad was in them, and he stayed in the RAF.

 

This is my Dad in the middle, but I have no idea what the trophy/coffee pot thing is...

Edited January 20, 2012 by Flyby PC

[Olham 164]

It always touches me with sentimental vibes to see old, personal photographs like this one.

It must be great to have such a well made photo of your dad - I wish I had one of mine.

He looks like a friendly character.

 

That "coffee pot / trophy" looks rather like a lubricating can to me, with a pressure pump handle at the top?

 

.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Olham

[Flyby PC 23]

I think you're correct Olham. Believe it or not, I'd never noticed the nozzle. The real picture is quite small, and while I've looked at that loads of times, when I look at the scan taken of it, my eyes don't actually 'look' at it properly.

 

It does indeed look like a grease gun, which raises just as many questions... I wonder if my dad forgot to grease something now ...

 

 

 

Biggest regret/wish with my dad is being just 11 when he died. I was just a kid and didn't really 'know' him at all. Still, 11 years is more than some folks get, and they were good years too, so I mustn't grumble.... If he was still alive, he'd be 95 by now.

 

 

I only recently discovered he was in the 1933 RAF Physical Training Display Team at the Royal Tournament, Olympia. Nobody told me that! But apologies to Hauksbee for hijacking his flat spin thread...

 

But I reckon Old Navy qualifies for his veteran avatar though...

[Olham 164]

I wonder if my dad forgot to grease something now ...

Well, it might be simpler. I don't know about the crew size of a Swordfish, but anyway:

it might have been his special duty to do the lubricating of specific parts?

 

11 years is more than some folks get, and they were good years too, so I mustn't grumble....

Indeed - so many dads never came back from the wars, when their kids were still babies.

That waste, and all that sorrow - all the dreadful missing...

[OLD NAVY 0]

Flyboy PC:

 

You're riight. I would have asked him whether he ever got seasick waiting for the lighter to pick him up at the bouy. I have a photo of my Stearman on floats. I have a scanner for my computer, so tomorrow I'll try to see if I can get it ready to attach to a message. I should be able to figure it out.

 

Olham brings up an interesting thought. How many pilots were killed in WW I & II? I remember one of my flight instructors talking about the US Navy's battle of Midway. It turns out that the majority of the aircrews in that pivotal battle were either killed or wounded. I imagine the losses on the Japanese side were even greater. My best friend in high scool joined the US Army Air Corp and was killed in a training accident even before I got into the air. OFF does a good job of stressing the point that the average WW I pilot survived only 17.5 hours in combat. I think OFF pilots learn very quickly the realities of combat aviation. A lot to think about.