Stall warning in OFF

[33LIMA 972]

This is NOT an effort to rekindle the locked debate over OFF sounds. It is to open a quite different discussion as to whether and how some kind of warning of impending stall, by some means less unrealistic than an on-screeen text warning, would be a useful addition to OFF (P3, as a mod) and/or OFF2 (as a new feature or a mod).

 

The prospective benefit would be to give a fairly clear indication of when you are flying on the verge of a stall and about to 'depart the envelope'.

 

CFS3 has a stallsound (same as present in OFF I believe) which is a low, gentle wind sound. It may be audible if you're flying a sailplane but it's not in any powered plane I've ever flown in CFS3 or OFF, even if the engine is idling. If you have 'Sim warnings' enabled you get a yellow text 'near stall' warning and a red 'danger - stall' wanring when it hits (by which latter point you will probably have encountered other signs anyway). However, many of us like to fly with these things turned off.

 

I realise a sign of a real stall is the wind noise going quiet, not getting louder. All I ever recall from doing a stall in Cessnas is the controls going mushy and the nose then dropping - if there was a sound besides the stall horn I don't recall. However, if you reat tesd pilot flight reports, they will usually include mention of the plane's stall characteristics and they will often mention the onset of buffeting as an indication of an impending stall - eg an online Wright Field report on the FW190D reported 'Adequate warning of stalls is given by shaking of the airplane and controls'.

 

A force-feedback joystick might be best here - I dunno if they can simulate 'mushy' controls well if at all, but they could and probably do simulate buffeting/shaking. However, it appears to me also desirable to consider built-in alternatives.

 

It's often instructive to consider how others tackle similar issues. In Warbirds and its WW1 'Flyboys' spin-off, you get a modern-style stall-horn sound, effective but very unrealistic. In First Eagles you get an audible sound best just described as a buffet, plus a slight but visible judder of the airframe. I find this an extremely effective indication of when I'm 'on the edge' and a warning that a stall or spin will happen if I keep pulling back. In IL2 there's no sound or other pre-stall warning I can hear or remember, but definitely I recall seeing some posts complaining that there had being some form of audible stall warning in IL2 and that it disappeared or was neutered. It's such a long time since I've flown EAW that I can't recall what it did.

 

In OFF, I replaced the in-game stall.wav sound with a modified variant of the wheel rattle/rumble sound (eg usroll1.wav) as this to me seemed to give a CREDIBLE (whether strictly realistic or not) representation of what it might sound like, if your plane was shuddering somewhat, on the edge of a stall. However, even if I cut the throttle and reduced the engine sound slider in Workshops, this sound remained inaudible. And I'd want it to be heard above an engine at full power, eg in a dogfight. Amplyfying the sound just destroyed it, before it became really audible. I may try recording my own sound at a suitable volume instead. Something like an equivalent of the creaking sound you get when stressing the airframe, which CAN be heard above the engine sound.

 

Anyhows, I think OFF (P3 and P4) would benefit from such a new stall.wav sound. I would hope one will be included with OFF2 and intend to have a more serious go at creating one for P3 in the (hopefully short) meantime.

 

What do others think?

[JFM 18]

For what it's worth I don't think you could hear creaking wood above a roaring engine--as a student I could barely hear my flight instructor screaming right next to me. Of course "I don't think" = speculation; never flown a wood-framed airplane.

 

I have hundreds of hours in Cessnas and can confirm they do make noise when stalling. Not just the stall horn, but the wings will--how do I describe it--"hauntingly groan" as they near stall. Seems the sound comes through the fresh air vents at the upper left and right sides of the cockpit--i.e., right next to the inboard leading edge wing roots. This mostly during power off stalls, when the engine is throttled back; i.e., when things are relatively quiet. During power on stalls or accelerated stalls I don't recall the haunting groan over the engine. The plane just departs--and hang on if you aren't coordinated!

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

In the UL's I flown I've never noticed any distinct sound per se just before or at the point of stall. It's all in the controls, along with an odd sort of feeling in your arse that the plane is about to leave you. That being said, I can see how adding something in OFF that would give you a heads-up could be helpful, though I personally don't have much trouble knowing when the stall is coming as the OFF kites seem to sort of 'hang' for a brief moment just before they drop away, (hard to explain, but it's definitely there).

 

.

[redpiano 6]

In ROF the wind sound dies and the planes starts to shake, I suspect that would be the best way.

[+Polovski 460]

Force feedback :).

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Well ... yes ... a force feedback stick could work, Pol. (yet another smartass)

 

.

[+Polovski 460]

LOL sorry couldn't resist. Seriously we will look at that anyway - maybe a different type of wind sound or whatever. Maybe we have already it's all starting to blur...

 

Really all you should hear is your engine, or the bullet whizzing through your cap (but that option is there in sound settings anyway) but I think most prefer a slight artistic license / Hollywood type sound to add immersion. Force Feedback is the more realistic tho, you do feel it going and think ohoh.

[Olham 164]

ADVERT

...or you know your craft - and what it can do, or what it can't.

ALBATROS

The Bird to carry you through a World War!

 

(Sorry, couldn't resist also. Mmuahahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!! )

[RamblingSid 3]

Hi Lima,

 

I use a Saitek Cyborg Evo Force stick and it definitely does shudder,

quite violently sometimes, near stall.

Apart from the obvious avoidance of stall, it's very useful.

 

Comparatively vigorous movements of the controls are needed to get the a/c to respond,

is this what you mean by "mushy" ?

Don't know if this is down to force feedback.

 

(Pity that force feedback sticks are, apparently, unprocurable

these days in australia )

 

I think an optional stall warning message/light is a good

idea. Not a stall sound though - Polovski's points.

[Olham 164]

When JFM says, a pilot would feel a coming stall in his bum - perhaps an electric wire could be

developed, which sends an electric shock via USB cable to - ah, forget the idea.

[von Baur 54]

Every force feedback stick I've owned has simulated near-stall quite nicely, the method depending on the sim. In Red Baron it was a strong, but not what I would consider violent, shaking. May have been that way in some others, I don't recall all of them. But most that I can remember were the discussed mushiness. The best way I can describe this is to think of the resistance to movement as arm wrestling. In normal flight it would be like wrestling with Arnold Schwarzeneggar and as you enter your near-stall it switches to wrestling a pre-teen...there's still resistance, just very noticeably less, and a rather quick change from one to the other, so there's no question what's going on. As I've said before in various threads around here, I don't have the warning turned off, but I'm almost always correcting based on the stick's response before I see it. I will say that a lot of that depends on the settings you select in the stick's profiles...the stronger you've got it, the more noticeble the difference is.

 

Everyone's preference (and budget) is different, but I highly recommend using a force feedback stick. I've only every had one and I found myself stalling on a regular basis with it, just because I didn't realize I was getting near that point.

 

(editted to correct grammar)

Edited March 23, 2012 by von Baur

[Herr Prop-Wasche 7]

So, it seems that if you have a force-feedback stick, you do get a physical signal that you are in danger of stalling. The problem seems to exist mainly for those of us (myself included) that do not have a force-feedback stick.

 

Other than investing in a new stick, there seems to be only a few options here: 1) Increase the volume of the existing stall sound. Problem: at higher levels, the sound becomes distorted and annoying. At levels that do not produce distortion, you can't hear the sound over the engine noise. I have had a little more luck than Lima producing a revised stall.wav that does not produce distortion, but you will probably have to reduce your engine noise level in Workshop to hear it. 2) Substitute a different sound for the stall.wav. Lima tried the landing rumble. I wonder if the wood creaking noise might work? Another alternative is to try reducing the existing stall.wav volume level and see if that produces a momentary quiet before the stall. My guess is that the ambient wind sound will remain, so the overall result is you won't hear any difference in the wind at stall.

[33LIMA 972]

Interesting discussion. FFB joysticks seem not particularly common/cheap these days, whether because the cheaper ones proved mechanically short-lived I dunno. Best bet if you can get one, mush and shudder by the sound (sic) of it, just the ticket.

 

Having your bum wired up may also be quite effective and could have many other leisure applications besides a seat-of-the-pants stall warning but for some reason I find it strangely unattractive

 

Even if it's artistic licence rather than strictly realistic I'm inclined to think that some sort of sound - designed to be audible above the engine sound with volume well turned up and at full throttle, otherwise it's really little/no use in combat - which CONVEYS the 'shaking of the airplane and controls' described above for the Dora 9, would be good. Having checked out various sound samples available online (you'd be amazed at the number of people who record their wardrobes rattling etc), I still find the rumbling/rattling sound of the wheels on the ground - OFF has several variants of this, which may or may not be stock CFS3 ones - somehow conveys it best of them all, subjective tho that obviously is.

 

I'm going to try a renamed airframe stress creak as a new stall.wav, and if I can still hear that above the engine sound in combat I will at least know it's possible, given the right sound. And it would be good to have one built in from the off (sic) in OFF2.

Edited March 23, 2012 by 33LIMA

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

maybe a different type of wind sound or whatever.

 

 

Polovski,

 

Considering what Olham has suggested and the "differend type of wind sound" as you have suggested, perhaps a sound that mimics flatulence. lol

[Olham 164]

Me? I haven't suggested anything like that!

 

No, but perhaps a kind of fluttering fabric noise or such would be possible.

Although it should be tight enough not to flutter.

[33LIMA 972]

Me? I haven't suggested anything like that!

 

No, but perhaps a kind of fluttering fabric noise or such would be possible.

Although it should be tight enough not to flutter.

 

'Fluttering fabric' might very well accompany flatulence (depending on severity, of course). So I can see the connection.

[+Polovski 460]

Indeed stall at 500 feet with a Fokker on your tail and there may be other noises accompanying that flatulence.

[Olham 164]

Like: "Mmuahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!!!"

Edited March 24, 2012 by Olham

[von Baur 54]

OOPS!!! Re-reading this, I just noticed that I had misspoken myself earlier. I said, "...I highly recommend using a force feedback stick. I've only every had one and I found myself stalling on a regular basis with it...". What I meant to say was that I've only ever had one that wasn't force feedback, and that's the one I kept stalling with. Sorry.

 

Rugbyfan, several people had created substitue sound files for Red Baron. One was a Sam Kinison scream for the headshot, which cracked me up. But another was your requested flatulence to replace the G-force sound. It actually took me a couple of runthroughs until I realized what it was.