SF2 Realism Mod

[+HomeFries 29]

I love Gerwin's tiles and use them myself, but I think that they should be left out because they violate Stability Principles I and II. They are under constant tweaking/development, and TK is likely to make changes to his graphics engine for the NA terrain, which may obsolesce some of the tiles.

 

Squadronlist.ini is another file that is regularly updated by TK, and is a likely candidate for the CP, or at least a separate download/update.

 

I'm depending other contributions for weapons and loadouts. @Malibu, that's your strong area, and I'll cover down on what you say. I'll be happy to post which weapons I use for my mods, and we can either add or subtract from that list, but we also need to determine which version of what weapon should be included. I think this is the most important part of the RP, and it's also the part for which I am the most ill-equipped to judge.

 

I'll look at the files when I'm off work, and I'll post a list of my additions. We can start hashing it out from there.

 

EDIT: One additional thought.

 

There are four of us who are enthusiastic about this project, and of those, all four of us have real life committments that limit the scope of what we can contribute. The RP is likely to wither if we don't put something out, but given the RL constraints it's unlikely we'll get everything we want in the first release. Therefore we need to add one more principle to our criteria already established, and that is the ability to easily overwrite or remove previous versions. This means that for things that may not make the first release (e.g. adding landing lights to all applicable stock aircraft), we should be able to implement them in a follow-on release by adding or overwriting a file. If a file needs to be removed in future editions, we should effort to ensure that the file/folder can be easily identified and removed without corrupting anything else. Things that violate this concept are INI files or TGA files in which the removal is required for a more desirable default file in the CAT.

Edited August 28, 2012 by HomeFries

[+daddyairplanes 10,251]

will have rough squadronlist.ini up later tonight for consideration. most Vietnam AGExp and NF4+ squadrons are added along with most ANG squadrons that flew a stock TW in their RL history. although that file is change semi regularly by TK, it's in increments of about 3-5 every 4 months and that is why 150 some slots were added: that way only the new couple of squadrons need to be added. i also left around 850 to 999 blank so futre mods and/or campaigns can have the extra room. while i definately think landing lights would be a great idea, i gotta point out that is edited in the data.ini and those get messed with every month. some form of plug in to the stock ini maybe but other wise something would be changed every month. not sayin lets not do it, just have a good plan is all..

Edited August 28, 2012 by daddyairplanes

[+HomeFries 29]

There is another way to do it:

 

Release a baseline which includes the data.ini files and the squadronlist.ini. Any edits we make to stock datafiles should be marked like such:

//RP start edit 1 of x
[ECM]
Name=ALR-45
//was ALR-15
//end edit

The we keep a log of edits from stock values that can be included with the Readme. Whenever a new patch comes out, we post in a sticky thread what files were changed, and people who want can extract the new file and make the changes manually. Every so often we can rebaseline or incrementally patch.

[+daddyairplanes 10,251]

ok cool. now officially reassured......

[+malibu43 142]

There is another way to do it:

 

Release a baseline which includes the data.ini files and the squadronlist.ini. Any edits we make to stock datafiles should be marked like such:

//RP start edit 1 of x
[ECM]
Name=ALR-45
//was ALR-15
//end edit

The we keep a log of edits from stock values that can be included with the Readme. Whenever a new patch comes out, we post in a sticky thread what files were changed, and people who want can extract the new file and make the changes manually. Every so often we can rebaseline or incrementally patch.

 

My suggestion would be to release "Hot fixes" in a file announcement thread or something (just a simple .zip file attached to a post) whenever an update is needed, and at the same time go back and update the main download.

 

That way those that already have it installed just need to check in with CA every once in a while and d/l the hot fix when needed. Someone who hasn't installed it can always go to the main download and get the most up to date version without having to wade through months or years of hot fixes and patches as well.

[+HomeFries 29]

That works too.

 

Here's what I've added to Malibu's pack thus far:

• Realistic Promotion Rate (missioncontrol.ini)
  
• Nations.ini with entries for speech packs and national anthems
  
• TMF F-14 sounds (added to soundlist.ini as well)
  
• My Semi-Transparent planning icons
  
• Crusader's F-15A Eagle avionics enhancement v1c
  
• CV-59 Forrestal class carrier (will test with tweaking the SF2V campaigns)
  
• Flyable F-104G using the SFG free version modified for SF2
  
• Mirage 3C, Mirage 5D, Mirage 5F updated to Shahak/Nesher avionics
  
• Fubar's FanSong RWR sounds (will put these in avionics.ini files for 1960s aircraft)
  
• Various national anthems for menu/campaign selection
  
• Various other enhancements of default sounds
  

I've also added the following speech packs:

• Renegade/Retrograde's speech pack
  
• RomFlyer's Approach/Departure voices
  
• Spectre8750's Hawkeye speech pack
  
• VPAF Speech Pack
  
• Gramps' Russian Speech Pack
  
• Gepard's German Speech Pack
  
• Baltika's British Speech Pack
  

I added the following pilots/seats/fakepilots:

• The A-6 Peanut lights (I'll be adding the proper lights to the A-6/EA-6B models)
  
• K-36D (Russian ejection seat)
  
• MB Mk7 (should be used with the F-8 Crusader)
  
• MODUsaf/MODUsn2 pilots (even though they're post-1980 because they're widely used)
  
• NavyNM2 Pilot (will replace all PilotNx pilots in USN/USMC aircraft with this)
  
• Seat_F-4 (retextured by TMF; don't need to modify the data.ini files)
  
• Seat_F-14
  
• Seat_Mk5 (for the A-6A)
  

Still to do:

• Insert the latest A-6A/A-6E/A-6E_79 data and avionics ini files
  
• Insert updated EA-6B data.ini file and add EA-6B standard and EXCAP variants based on original LOD (for Linebacker II campaign)
  
• Sort through weapons
  

I'll post all of my weapons in another post, at which point we can determine which should stay, which should be moved to the CP, and which should go. We should also think about our UI. Do we want photos, do we want to use an existing UI, or do we want to leave the stock UI in place? Do we want to mess with the music?

Edited August 29, 2012 by HomeFries

[+HomeFries 29]

I've since incorporated my A-6 and EA-6B datafies (standard, EXCAP, ICAP I), though I left the avionics files out since those are better served with their respective superpacks. I also incorporated a mod I started a while back, but had abandoned since I couldn't properly test it at the time. It's a graphic and INI file to award the Naval version of the Medal of Honor to USN/USMC pilots, and I just added the proper shading and edge work to make it match up with the shadow box. It has now been tested, so it works and is included. Finally, I added the E-2C upgrade pack and Dave's VAQ-134 skin for the EA-6B ICAP I. I know that skins are normally out of scope for the RP, but I made exceptions for these because they were made specifically to enhance the SF2NA campaign, and there this is the best way to get the properly marked aircraft into the campaign.

 

Next up is to add the EA-6B to the Linebacker II campaign (which should be easy enough since I did it for the A-6 superpack) and add my tweaks to the stock campaigns (e.g. adding Ramat David as the default base graphic in the SF2I campaigns, replacing the A-6E with the A-6E_79 in SF2NA, which was historically accurate as far as the VA-35 deployment goes, etc.).

 

@DA, did you add any Belgian or Danish squadrons to the squadronlist.ini? If so, do you know which ones flew the F-104? I would like to be able to add them to the appropriate textureset.ini files if possible.

Edited August 29, 2012 by HomeFries

[+malibu43 142]

Is that the CV-59 from Beers? If it is, the quality was pretty low compared to stock carriers, and we're better off just using CV-63 as a stand-in. If it's the one Fubar was working on (?), then that might be a different story.

 

Is there a speech pack that fixes Red Crown (I don't see one listed in your post above...)? While a lot of those speech packs are much better than stock, I've found in the past that hearing stock Red Crown (or Hawkeye or Departure/Approach) in the middle of the other modified radio calls is a HUGE immersion killer. To the point where I felt it was better just leaving the stock AI speech files.

Edited August 29, 2012 by malibu43

[+HomeFries 29]

Thanks, malibu. I was planning on looking at CV-59 to see for myself before making the final decision.

 

I may pull the approach/departure pack as well; I like it better than Bubba, but it can be distracting so this may be a case of less is more. Spectre's Hawkeye voice, however, is a huge improvement over the default Hawkeye voice. I actually prefer it to Skatezilla's speech pack (which itself is excellent and a major improvement). I don't know of any Red Crown speech packs, though.

[+malibu43 142]

Thanks, malibu. I was planning on looking at CV-59 to see for myself before making the final decision.

 

I may pull the approach/departure pack as well; I like it better than Bubba, but it can be distracting so this may be a case of less is more. Spectre's Hawkeye voice, however, is a huge improvement over the default Hawkeye voice. I actually prefer it to Skatezilla's speech pack (which itself is excellent and a major improvement). I don't know of any Red Crown speech packs, though.

 

So, my vote in terms of speech packs would be:

 

1) Speech pack for EVERYTHING (Redcrown, Hawkeye, AI, Approach/Departure, etc...)

 

2) if 1 doesn't exist, I'd vote for no speech packs except for Sprectre's edited Hawkeye pack.

 

My 2 cents.

[+HomeFries 29]

Malibu,

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree with your second bullet. I think the Renegade/Retrograde speech pack is incredible, and I find that when I test with an otherwise vanilla install, the bubba pilot comms are like nails on a chalkboard in comparison. I don't mind bubba so much for approach/departure, especially since these will be a separate set of voices anyway.

 

Hopefully more people will chime in, but from the traffic I've seen it appears that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

And you're right about CV-59. It's not bad, but it's no CVA-63 either. Removed.

 

I'll be going through some weapons packs to determine what should be put in. The way I see it, there are two easy ways we can go about this:

• Cherry pick the weapons we want/need and don't make any modifications to the weapons themselves. If people want the whole pack, they can install it separately without overwriting any improvements.
  
• If any weapons are tweaked (e.g. allowing B61 for export for USN use), then include the entire pack from which the weapon originated. This way people who want the whole pack have it without having to worry about overwriting any improvements.
  

EDIT: There is a third way of cherry picking and improving weapons for the RP, then including the balance of the weapons in the CP, so people who want the whole package can get the CP.

 

Of course, the fourth way of cherry picking and improving means that we will need to document the changes so people who want everything know what not to overwrite. Or we can just provide instructions to install the entire weapons pack prior to installing the RP (a solution I dislike).

 

Speaking of weapons, is there any way to control which countries weapons are exported to (again, thinking of the B61)? It seems the only control I have is by limiting the attachment type. BTW, I think you'll like some of the changes I made to the A-6 loadouts. Nukes, Skippers, and ASR loadouts, oh my!

Edited August 29, 2012 by HomeFries

[+malibu43 142]

Malibu,

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree with your second bullet. I think the Renegade/Retrograde speech pack is incredible, and I find that when I test with an otherwise vanilla install, the bubba pilot comms are like nails on a chalkboard in comparison. I don't mind bubba so much for approach/departure, especially since these will be a separate set of voices anyway.

 

Hopefully more people will chime in, but from the traffic I've seen it appears that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

...

 

That's fine if I'm in the minority. I can live with it or find ways around it.

[+HomeFries 29]

They'll be the only WAV files directly in the common\Speech folder (the Hawkeye speech files will be in SF2NA\Speech). You can just choose to omit them.

[+daddyairplanes 10,251]

danish and belgians (and dutch too...) squadrons check

F-104 will doublecheck against the AirTime book i have after church, but i think so.

[+malibu43 142]

I just found Retrograde's speech pack. I was looking at the wrong one earlier (can't remember which one off the top of my head). The one you want to use is tits! I like it!

 

[+HomeFries 29]

I just found Retrograde's speech pack. I was looking at the wrong one earlier (can't remember which one off the top of my head). The one you want to use is tits! I like it!

 

Speaking of weapons, is there any way to control which countries weapons are exported to (again, thinking of the B61)? It seems the only control I have is by limiting the attachment type.

Any ideas?

[+malibu43 142]

 

 

Any ideas?

 

You got 'em both already. Either don't allow the weapon to be exported, or only allow a certain attachment type.

[+HomeFries 29]

Rgr that. Follow-up question:

 

If I allow export of the B-61, but just have USAF and USN attachments, does this open it up for any nation with US exported aircraft to also be able to use the B-61?

 

If that is the case, I'll just make a B-61N.

 

Speaking of weps, I just downloaded a bunch of packs, including KillerBee's Ordnance Pack II. I'm honestly overwhelmed and can't sort through it all. Since you've been through this before with AGXP, could you send some pointers my way about what to include, avoid, et al?

[+daddyairplanes 10,251]

B-61 should work for nuclear sharing with USAF/USN attachment points just fine. i've run many a NATO zipper mission w/ B61 before no worries.

as for squadrons yess all but Norway ar currently in squadronlist but for some reason i cannot get Denmarks units to show up. one has to have the specific syntax it seems cause some dutch units were missing til i fixed em. (ex. 416TFS, 32RAF etc) whats buggin me is finding the right mix for the Danes, but also all my current installs are very lightly modded right now with no F-104 or Danish skins anywhere. gotta few hours of class today then my wife is trying out for a job so i'll add on the skins/aircraft and see if it has any effect. gotta theory but also gotta go.......

also have gunny's pack broken down into sections will take a loook and poss send to you this weekend.

[+malibu43 142]

Rgr that. Follow-up question:

 

If I allow export of the B-61, but just have USAF and USN attachments, does this open it up for any nation with US exported aircraft to also be able to use the B-61?

 

The aircraft would have to be flown by a "Friendly" nation, and the aircraft would have to have attachment points that allow either USAF or USN (if they're just NATO, the weapon won't load).

 

Speaking of weps, I just downloaded a bunch of packs, including KillerBee's Ordnance Pack II. I'm honestly overwhelmed and can't sort through it all. Since you've been through this before with AGXP, could you send some pointers my way about what to include, avoid, et al?

 

Well, like I already said, I don't see a glaring need for any weapons or weapons changes other than the couple that I've already included. So I don't know if I can be much help in telling you what to include. This is where we need to be careful; KB's Ordnance Pack II is several patches old. If we start replacing stock weapons from that pack, we could screw up the balance of the game (although I guess that may not be that likely).

 

My suggestion would be to, without even looking at a weapons pack, list the stock weapons that you think are broken or missing. Then, for the weapons that are "broken" lets just extract the stock .ini files and fix them (there's no guarantee that the ones in weps packs are any better). Then, for ones that are missing, grab them from the newest weapons pack you can find and test the crap out of them to make sure they work like they should.

 

In general, I'm thinking more of a "pull" philosophy vs a "push" philosophy. Identify the shortcomings in the game and pull the parts in to fix it, rather than identifying all kinds of addons in the 3rd party world and push them into the game whether they're needed or not (if that makes sense).

 

*edit - regarding the AGXP, I think I only added a few missing weapons initially (like a dozen or less, following my "pull" philosophy from above). eburger68 assembled the rest of that weapons pack. We'd have to ask him where most of the weapons came from, what he had to change to make them work, and what the need was to add them.

Edited August 30, 2012 by malibu43

[+HomeFries 29]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any broken stock weapons, though I'm not the guy to ask. I was thinking more in terms of adding weapons that aren't included in the stock layout, but that would be good for realistic loadouts (e.g. AGM-123 Skipper II for the A-6E_79, Mk77 Fire bomb for the Marines, nukes). I think the updated AIM-54 series are worth adding as well, but I'm open to suggestions beyond that.

 

My thoughts are that the RP should include the "must have" mods and tweaks to make SF2 enjoyable without further tweaking, which also means that if we're going to tweak the original campaigns we should include the mods used by the tweaked campaigns as well. From there, people can decide in which direction they want to mod their install, and the CP can help fill that niche.

[+malibu43 142]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any broken stock weapons, though I'm not the guy to ask. I was thinking more in terms of adding weapons that aren't included in the stock layout, but that would be good for realistic loadouts (e.g. AGM-123 Skipper II for the A-6E_79, Mk77 Fire bomb for the Marines, nukes). I think the updated AIM-54 series are worth adding as well, but I'm open to suggestions beyond that.

 

My thoughts are that the RP should include the "must have" mods and tweaks to make SF2 enjoyable without further tweaking, which also means that if we're going to tweak the original campaigns we should include the mods used by the tweaked campaigns as well. From there, people can decide in which direction they want to mod their install, and the CP can help fill that niche.

 

Well, unless someone comes forward and helps us with what weapons need to be fixed or added, I think the best we can do is just do the few that we know of. There's not much else we can do. I mean, no one can think of a reason for a large weapons pack, so why are we trying to add one?

 

Also, I don't think there's really much point in adding the MK77. The stock game doesn't have any enemy infantry or base camps in heavily forested or jungle areas, so they aren't very useful. All the CAS loadouts (USMC included) need to be geared to taking out large soviet tank formations, since those are the missions the game will generate. We can still add the MK77, but it really just ends up being another not-so-useful weapon to filter through when using the loadout screen. In other words, there is a trade off between having accurate loadouts and loadouts that are usefull in the game. I tried to balance that trade-off with my F-4 loadouts.

 

Not saying we can't include the MK77. I'm just giving something to think about when deciding what weapons to include.

Edited August 30, 2012 by malibu43

[+daddyairplanes 10,251]

big thing off top of my head, Mk 80 series has no specific start year. have seen P-51s carrying Mk81's in 1948. tell me what s wrong with that pic...........

[+malibu43 142]

big thing off top of my head, Mk 80 series has no specific start year. have seen P-51s carrying Mk81's in 1948. tell me what s wrong with that pic...........

 

Let's add that to the list of fixes then. As long as it doesn't screw up any stock loadouts... which I don't think it would.

 

I'm going to be out of town for the long weekend, so I may be slow to reply (or not reply at all) for the next few days. It sounds like we're close to having something together pending some weapons fixes/additions.

Edited August 30, 2012 by malibu43

[+HomeFries 29]

I'm thinking that with weapons, we should triage them into the following categories:

 

1) Which weapons should be included with the Realism Pack? My thoughts:

• Stock weapons that can be improved
  
• Non-stock weapons that will be utilized
  
• Weapons that fit our timeframe (exception: modern weapons that are part of a pack that overlaps timeframe, in which case we may want to include the entire pack. Example: AIM-54 variants).
  

2) Which weapons should be included in the Community Pack? Again, my thoughts:

• Cool to have weapons (Mk77 fire bomb, which is part of realistic loadouts, but not all that useful as far as the game goes per malibu's comments)
  
• Useful weapons that are more modern than the stock period (i.e. 1981+) like the AGM-65 or AGM-88
  
• Weapons that are used in multiple mods (again, AGM-65, modern AA missiles, JDAM/JSOW/modern PGMs)
  

3) Weapons that we should pass on completely.

• A particular weapon made obsolete by a better weapon mod
  
• A weapon whose improvements are obsolesced by a 3W patch
  
• Weapons that are more exotic than useful (e.g. original daisy cutters), or only serve to clutter the menu (e.g. inert loads). These can be added by individual mods if required.
  

Edited August 31, 2012 by HomeFries