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thodouras95

A rather weird thing about the TMF Cat AWG-9...

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I went to play a small battle yesterday, 1x Iranian F-14 vs a USN F-14A.I skip to the target area, about 25 miles from the F-14, when suddenly I get radar lock warning.So far, so normal.Radar lock warning continues, but at some point I hear "Missile launch!", while the RWR beep indicated no such thing (neither was the "14" icon blinking).I pause, check the other guy and indeed, he had two Phoenixes out at me.I did a few other tests to check whether there was a problem with the AWG-9 being undetectable, or whether the F-14's RWR was the cause of the problem.But it could pick up all other missile launches, except for the Phoenix.Same thing happened with the TW stock F-15A.Could not detect AIM-54 launches.The weird thing, however was that when I would launch a Phoenix against the F-15, it would detect the launch and react by dumping chaff (by the way, if you can, give me a hand with making the AIM-54 less vulnerable to chaff because this is getting out of hand...)

 

All those seem to indicate that the secret lies inside the AWG-9.I ran kind of short on time, which did not allow me to continue tests to see if the stock TW Tomcat had the same issues, or whether AIM-7 launches from TMF F-14s could be picked up by RWR, but, has anyone experienced this too?Is it a problem with my files or something else?

Edited by thodouras95

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Might be intentional - sounds like its been implemented like an active missile - which the AIM-54 kind of is - (like the AIM-120)

 

 

The AI may detect all missiles based on programmed behavior as opposed to whats detectable on a RWR

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Might be intentional - sounds like its been implemented like an active missile - which the AIM-54 kind of is - (like the AIM-120)

 

 

The AI may detect all missiles based on programmed behavior as opposed to whats detectable on a RWR

 

So, even in real life, because the AIM-54 flies for most of the route on autopilot and only gets occasional radar updates, there is no warning?Still, shouldn't the defender be notified when these updates are given to the missile, or when the missile activates its own radar seeker?

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Generally - how its moddeled in some sims is the RWR sometimes picks up the missile when it goes active.............................

 

I don't know if you need to add frequencies to the AIM-54 itself to get this effect - or whether that even works without testing it

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I was flying a Mig-23 the other day, tangling with F-4s. After dispatching the last F-4 I thought "Ah, good fight". The I blew up without any warning. Turns out a flight of tomcats just locked up and greased my whole unit with Phoenixes. Never heard a thing. I forget when the fight was supposed to be but I remember being annoyed that the tomcats were even there.

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The AWG-9 in TWS updates every 2 seconds. While Phoenix is flying to its target, it receives information updates from the AWG-9, and you won't get the constant pinging of the radar in single target track, only every time the radar re-scans the target (every 2 seconds). When Phoenix goes terminal, you should start getting the constant pinging because the missile is now on its own internal radar and it's updating as quickly as it can to make the intercept. That's the way it works in reality, anyhow, and I think this is how Fleet Defender modeled it; when an aircraft or ground radar was illuminating you, you'd get a "BEEP" wait 1, wait 2 "BEEP", etc. When either the opposing aircraft locked you up in STT, or a missile went active, then the RWR would make the constant beeping. In ThirdWire, you should see a diamond with the number 14 in it if the Tomcat's radar is on. If it is in TWS, you wouldn't get the constant pinging of the aircraft in PDSTT (I actually noticed this when I did the AIM-23 test, when it shot the semi-active AIM-23, I got all the RWR noise I'd get from a Sparrow or AA-7, 10, etc. when the aircraft goes to PDSTT). BUT! I don't think you get audible tones at all when the aircraft is in TWS, nor when an active missile is launched at you with the radar in TWS in the ThirdWire games. Either that, or my RWR tones are jacked up. Thinking about it in the context of watching the debug, I don't notice enemy aircraft break until the missile goes terminal (i.e. object becomes visible to the AI pilot), even when I select them to launch at in TWS mode (the AI action stays WAYPOINT, and doesn't switch to BEAM_RADAR like it does for STT).

 

So, unless a second RWR sound effect becomes available to indicate a radar scanning, or a missile going active, I don't think you'll hear anything until your opponent goes to STT.

 

EDIT: Classical radars will have the second sound effect (the slow rate strobe) and kick up to high rate strobe when the radar has locked you up. I'll need to fly against the F-14 to see if its radar does this in RWS. I still don't get warnings if its in TWS.

Edited by Caesar

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The ingame performance of the AIM-54 is far from constant. With stock only stuff, I remember getting a 4 flight of F-15s down with a ripple launch, not a single miss, but in the next mission, couldn´t hit on any of 4 Tu-16As (no ecm, no chaff) targeted.

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OK, Gents, here's what I've got:

 

Flew two missions against IRIAF F-14's in USN F-14A's. I selected two different loadouts for the IRIAF birds: one with Phoenix and one without.

 

Without Phoenix:

 

The mission started with launch, we flew a distance, and the IRIAF F-14's began taking off (2 of them). I got them on TWS at about 140NM. At 120, I designated them as targets and checked the AI Action. No change. Continued to fly and track until inside of Rmax. I waited until 74NM to fire, still wanting to see if they'd spot me on their own. When I fired they immediately changed from WAYPOINT to RHM_ATTACK (i.e. they turned into me and started lighting me up with their radars). Once in RHM_ATTACK, I immediately got the normal slow strobe warning from my RWR gear. Their radars would have been in RWS mode at this point. As the new Phoenix peak at a slower speed than the older ones, it took them more time to get to the target, and eventually I landed in the firing envelope of their AIM-7's (I have to change the settings since they shouldn't have either F or M Sparrows) and they fired at me. My RWR went to fast strobe warning, signalling incoming missiles. The 14 diamond had a circle in it, signifying they were tracking me (PDSTT). My missiles made it to target first, and the bandits were splashed. Their missiles fell harmlessly.

 

So, from fight 1: if you're being shot at by an F-14 by AIM-7 Sparrow missiles, you WILL hear slow strobe when the AWG-9 is illuminating you, and fast strobe when it is tracking you.

 

With Phoenix:

 

Same setup, but once the IRIAF birds were airborne, and had traveled minimal distance, at about 120NM away, they began illuminating me, and I heard the slow strobe warning. They would have been in TWS for this portion already if Phoenix was to be fired. At Rmax, I fired first, then a few miles later (70-ish) they fired back. My RIO/Flight gave me the "MISSILE INBOUND" warning, but my RWR did NOT transition to fast strobe warning, in fact, it silenced. It began intermittently transmitting slow strobe until all Phoenix were fired, and I then had only slow strobe warnings as the missiles were inbound. Again, the IRIAF guys ate the incoming Phoenix from my side. None of theirs hit.

 

So, if the AI is in TWS, you SHOULD still get at least slow strobe warnings, however, you will NOT get fast strobe warning if a missile is launched at you, and your warning tones might cut out completely. If that happens, expect a missile is headed your way! I'd think at the minimum your RWR gear should maintain the slow strobe warning so long as an F-14 is tracking you in TWS, not sure why it cuts out when a missile is fired. Also, the AI will more aggressively prosecute you if it has a weapon that can reach out and touch you. If not, it might not even try to turn into your direction unless you fire at it/make yourself a threat.

 

EDIT: All F-14's involved were from the Super Pack, not ThirdWire. I'm guessing, since the avionics are nearly identical, the result should be the same with TW F-14's.

 

That's my report!

Edited by Caesar
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I guess that makes the F-14 a much trickier adversary to go up against BVR.The good thing, at least, is that in medium ranges the missile is visible by eye (looks like a freshly launched SAM :biggrin: )

 

 

Thanks fellas, especially Caesar, for the info.

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