MiG-23 Tactics

[FightingFulcrum 5]

Hello guys, I'm a big MiG-23 guy, I fly it a lot even though its cockpit is pretty outdated, and its a shame theres no way to properly simulate the radar display in the hud, but I've had a hard time in fighter to fighter combat with this guy. It seems when fighting in a "conventional" manner in a head on engagement with radar guided missiles, especially in early floggers it is suicide against F-4 phantoms, it varies with other planes, but for the most part radar missiles are tricky to use without either missing or getting shot down.

Recently I have had success flying newer model Floggers with all aspect IR missiles, for a while I experimented with Floggers loaded with nothing but AA-8 Aphid all aspect missiles and keeping my radar off/flying solo. Once I knew the bering of the enemy I would come in low and fast avoiding being spotted hopefully and at the very least radar lock/missiles, then when I was close I would be going full burner and use the MiG-23s excellent climb to come up right in the middle of their formation or infront and hit a plane or two with AA-8s, and consider to keep my speed up and yo yo/slash until there is only one or maybe two other planes left and depending on the model I can dispatch them pretty easy in different ways. That or flying solo and sneaking up from behind/side/low and then coming in fast and hitting them with AA-8s close. I've even managed to take out multiple F-15s this way with a bit of luck haha, also I just found out the R-24T is all aspect so I'm going to experiment with that to see if I can extend my range a bit. This is all good for the newer floggers but what about when I only have perhaps 2 AA-2 for up close, and have to make my R-23s/R24s count? What is  the best tactic? It seems flying with wingmen in suicide as in a battle with F-4s they just unload tons of radar guided missiles at me while we're shooting ours and its a crapshoot.

Thank you

[FightingFulcrum 5]

MiG-23ML gun kill on F-15A. The first burst I landed just set his left engine on fire. I pulled away and expected a kill but the fire went out and he tried to escape on one engine so I had to finish him off. This was during a CAP where me and one wingman jumped 2 F-15As from behind, the first got hit with 3 R-24Ts and 1 AA-8 Aphid, I used my remaining 3 AA-8s trying to take out his wingman, but despite 3 decent shots back to back he got lucky haha. Not lucky enough though!

Edited March 1, 2014 by FightingFulcrum

[Antares81 16]

MiG-23 Flogger cocpkpit must be build , this mod contain Su-17 pit :/ ...

I've change the cockpit whit avionic function because HSI is not real ... I hope that some one can create the real structure of Floggers pits

[Tzareff 6]

Did you try the original Third Wire MiG-23 ?

I think he have a better Flight Model at least in terms of acceleration and Max speed, he is capable of 2.35 Mach at 12000 meters.

But he still fly like a "brick" , cause of his AoA values

CheckStall=TRUE
CLmax=0.2608
AlphaStall=13.35
AlphaMax=23.79
AlphaDepart=32.35

And the AI is almost harmles restricted by this values

[MigBuster 2,884]

Tactics for the ultimate MiG-23MLD were to only use high speed slashing attacks against F-15/16 and to never engage in a prolonged turning fight - with the AI you can get away with a lot more close in - although the very poor view from the pit makes it very difficult to keep a tally. (eg if you fly without the red boxes)

 

Keep very low as you are doing and keep fast - if you are flying after about 1975 then flying at height is a bad idea.

 

You have limited control over the wingmen unfortunately - but they can be utilised as useful decoys - but yes they will often be wiped out in this type of battle.

Edited March 1, 2014 by MigBuster

[Centurion-1 1,228]

Hi and welcome to CombatAce!

Flying the Flogger is exceedingly hard, I have tried some campaigns doing that too but I did it the other way and always bought a ton of wingmen (like 15 wingmen per mission) to exploit the MiG-23s "producability". Against F-15 and F-4 armed with Sparrows flying away can be a good tactic, and have them expend their Aim-7s. Then order flight two or three to break and engage air. The AI can be very single minded and will not see the other flight coming.

 

As stated before, staying very low to close the gap can be a good tactic too.

[FightingFulcrum 5]

Thanks guys

I used to fly full realism back in the WoE days but nowadays I'm playing on a laptop, although I should probably try to get back into the habit of using the padlock views but on this computer I have to hit function with the F keys to change views so doing it on the fly is pretty tricky haha. Either way I'll guess I'll just keep doing what I'm doing, this is the one of the few games where the MiG-23 is flyable, and it is a good game at that so I'm probably going to be sticking with it for awhile haha.

[Centurion-1 1,228]

When I got my new laptop it had that feature too, it drove me mad until i figured out that I could turn it off in the BIOS settings.

[FightingFulcrum 5]

I'll have to check that out!

Been having some successes with the earliest MiG-23 available, I like its MiG-21 cockpit with an actual radarscope better than the Su-17 pit, also it is a lot heavier to throw around but having a whole other fuel tank is very nice as it lets you stay on that burner better. This mission I bagged 1 R-23R kill, 1 AA-8 Aphid kill, and 2 gun kills, I've been flying in 1973 I think it is first year the AA-8 becomes available as I cant stand the AA-2. We lost all 5 of my wingman though in order to bag 6 Phantoms. The guy in the picture decided to chase me home with his wingman an try to bag two landing planes, but me and a random AI plane sorted them out, although when I landed from being out of ammo there was another Phantom that had come up to try and avenge them. I've been using my general tactic of flying along the waypoints until my GCI station gives me a bering on a target. If it looks like I can come up behind them I will, if its a head on engagement I will stay level until my RWR starts going off and then I will go low to close the gap, and then pop up once my R-23s are in range and bag 1 or 2 planes with those, and then try to get in behind someone with the AA-8s. I've also been not turning on my radar until I am basically certain I have a target infront of me and then lock them up right away and fire, as it was done in real life for the most part, and I've been having much more success than turning my radar on early and trying to get a lock ASAP. This is all on full realism by the way except for the target indicators and such, and I have the radar box on to sort of simulate the radar on hud of the Flogger.

Also by the way, does anyone know some good MiG-23 skins? Preferably for the M/ML Soviet floggers. I haven't really tried the export models much but I can't imagine downgraded avionics making my job much easier. 

Also is it just me or do the addon Floggers have a hard time getting over about 1.1/1.2 mach, is this realistic when I am travelling with a full fuel and weapons load? It seems even when I just have my guns and my drop tanks dropped I'm still not much faster,

 

Edited March 2, 2014 by FightingFulcrum

[+allenjb42 4,234]

Also by the way, does anyone know some good MiG-23 skins? Preferably for the M/ML Soviet floggers. I haven't really tried the export models much but I can't imagine downgraded avionics making my job much easier.

 

Here's a search of the downloads on 'flogger' if that helps

http://combatace.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&andor_type=&sid=7fb1be58a0e8d38675730a206fcae2d2&search_app_filters[downloads][files][sortKey]=relevancy&search_app_filters[downloads][searchInKey]=files&search_term=flogger&search_app=downloads

[MigBuster 2,884]

Also is it just me or do the addon Floggers have a hard time getting over about 1.1/1.2 mach, is this realistic when I am travelling with a full fuel and weapons load? It seems even when I just have my guns and my drop tanks dropped I'm still not much faster,

 

 

 

What altitude are you at? and what figure are you using to determine how fast you are.

 

M1,2 would be the Max on the deck - if you want to see M2.0 then go very high 37,000ft+ clean

[FightingFulcrum 5]

Thanks for the help guys. I was using the speed listed on the little info box on the bottom left of the screen,and I was flying much lower than 37,000 though. I was curious because I was chasing an addon Mirage F1 in I think a MiG-23PD one of the lighter models, and he was outclimbing and outrunning me like I wasnt even there,  and then after I gave it in a straight line, I think fairly high and couldn't get much over mach 1 even with no weapons left iirc.

[FightingFulcrum 5]

Just flew my first mission of the day, CAP over the Bering Strait in 1973. Flying 4xMiG-23M Early Model. Travelled to my objective point and was notified by GCI of 4 F-4E Phantoms to the North heading south right for us, and also 2 CF-104s about the same distance to the South heading North. I decide to engage the Phantoms first and turn north. We come at them head on in a straight fight, I lock the lead plane well within missile range and fire my first R-23R it fails to track, fire my second and last R-23 it tracks perfect and flies up smashing right into the underside of the lead Phantom a  few hundred feet above me just after it fires a radar missile at one of my wingmen. I turn around and am greeted with another Phantom heading right for me and above very close, he doesn't have time to get a missile lock on me and I fire a few gun bursts in his general direction but nothing. I start to turn hard just before he passes me and I manage to get right in above and behind him. I follow him for a bit until I get a good tone with my AA-8 and fire and smoke him. At this point I am surprised to hear that none of my other wingman have taken a hit, and the other two Phantoms were either killed by other AI planes in the area, crashed, or managed to flee and get off radar in the area.

I ask my ground station for the vector to the next nearest threat and they direct me to the CF-104s. After a few minutes we get in right behind them without them noticing as they start to make their trip back over to Alaska. I fire one AA-8 but it fails to track, I'm all out of missiles so I come in fast and strafe him with the 23MM at just under Mach 1 and blow him to pieces, I live on the West coast of Canada so I hope that wasnt anybody I know's parents or grandparents haha. As I blow past I look back at his wingman just as one of my wingman calls "Fox 1" and a few seconds later he also explodes and goes into the freezing ocean. Me and my full squad return home and I am surprised to fly a MiG-23 mission where we went head to head with a group of Phantoms 4 on 4 and left without a single scratch and had enough ammo left to bag those two star fighters on the way home, and although I have to agree the ML is a much better handling plane, the M with the additional fuel tank as well as a full load of drop tanks has a pretty nice fuel load.I had barely touched my internal tanks by the time I got home.

Now that I'm getting better with the MiG-23s perhaps I'll start recording a couple missions in more detail for the after action report thread.

BTW, thanks for the link to the Flogger downloads, I found a nice set of skins for both the early and Ser 23 MiG-23M,  these gray skins look much nicer than the ones included.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2014 by FightingFulcrum

[MigBuster 2,884]

Thanks for the help guys. I was using the speed listed on the little info box on the bottom left of the screen,and I was flying much lower than 37,000 though. I was curious because I was chasing an addon Mirage F1 in I think a MiG-23PD one of the lighter models, and he was outclimbing and outrunning me like I wasnt even there,  and then after I gave it in a straight line, I think fairly high and couldn't get much over mach 1 even with no weapons left iirc.

 

Pretty sure the little box denotes the airspeed in knots Indicated Airspeed (IAS) 

 

Mach 1.2 at Sea Level = ~800 KIAS

Mach 2.3 at altitude = ~970 KIAS  (same as 1330 KTAS / 1535 MPH / 2471 KPH))

 

 

True Airspeed (TAS) would be closer to what you are looking for - ie M2.3 = 1330 KTAS 

 

btw the top speed for the MiG-23 will only be reachable from around 37,000ft to 60,000ft - its not stated.

Edited March 4, 2014 by MigBuster

[Centurion-1 1,228]

Nice screenshots there! Do write a full AAR please!

 

Also found this picture of a LSK MiG-23BN that was too gorgeous to not share

 

[Rends 166]

The 710 is now displayed at Berlin-Gatow Museum.

More images of this plane can be found here: http://www.jbg37.de/html/710.htm

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

How to win with the Flogger:

 

Stay fast.

 

Stay on the deck.

 

Radar OFF until after the merge.

 

Never turn fight.

 

Extend, turn radar OFF, stay low, come back around, radar ON, slash, extend.

 

I routinely defeat Israeli F-16s circa 81-84 with these tactics.

 

The TW and TMF flight models in all their incarnations kinda suck. Not as bad as the TIE Fighter MiG-17s the stock TW flight model provides. But still bad. When I fight Floggers they always go into tight turns that the MiG-23 could not actually sustain without departing and they never take advantage of their great speed and stability down low.

 

You should not use the early pit with the Jaybird radar for an aircraft armed with Apex missiles. Only R-13 Atoll for Jaybird equipped Flogger.

 

Read the book Red Eagles.

[FightingFulcrum 5]

Thanks! I've read a little bit of Red Eagles mostly the MiG-23 parts, but yeah thats pretty much the tactics I've been using, except on earlier models I can turn fight decently well with Phantoms, but other than that slashing attacks. My personal best record was 4 or 5 F-15As in the early 80s iirc. I used my wingman as decoys and closed fast and low and then came in close using nothing but R-62Ks I think it was. I managed to surprise them and tear them apart but there was also a lot of luck haha, but in a low intensity environment I can usually pull off a 2 on 2 contact bagging at least 1 kill and getting home.

I know the earliest cockpit/avionics suite is not the most accurate, but I prefer it strongly to the SU-17 pit. Personally I would like one of the nice later MiG-21 pits such as the one that is all black with the orange radar down in the center, but really the most important thing would be a working RWR, if not the Sirena than the older model like used on the SU-15TM. Waiting till I get lit up and then asking the GCI and/or checking the map feels kinda gamey. Perhaps if the "vector to nearest thread and target" radio calls gave you more info that would be cool. I know in the American airforce at least radar operators were trained to detect a type of plane based on its suspected electronic signature. Perhaps it could start out vague with "fighter sized or bomber sized" and then maybe move up to a "modern" fighter or an out of date model, depending on the strength of the radar output and such coming off of it and if the conditions were right your GCI operator could tell you "Suspected F4 Phantom/MiG-21 etc at 10 o clock angels 5", also another idea apart from Nearest Threat and Objective, perhaps also the ability to ask for a vector to what is considered the highest value target in the area.

Edited March 6, 2014 by FightingFulcrum

[FightingFulcrum 5]

4 x MiG-23Ms tangle with 4x F-35A Drakens over Denmark. I grabbed 2 kills one R-23, one R-60, one wingman gained a single R-23 kill, and the third wingman gained 1 R60 kill and I think an additional R-23 kill of a target of opportunity. Although I guess an early Draken isn't the most fair opponent, it is nice to be flying the MiG-23 and not only bagging kills and making it home, but so are my wingman at times haha.

 

 

 

 

 

[+CrazyhorseB34 937]

Cool keep having fun with this! A proper Flogger pit is in the works, tiny birds tell me.

 

I might dust off my 15 or so Flogger models and start flying them again.

[FightingFulcrum 5]

Awesome! The more flogger pilots the better, now hopefully we'll get MP back soon so I can try out my skills online!

Found this going through an old photobucket if anybody wants a cool Flogger phone background