Getting a lot of what I want out of DCS

[+streakeagle 871]

By restricting the F-15C to AIM-7M and AIM-9P and flying against MiG-23s, I get something much closer to my preferred style of dogfight than engaging MiG-29s and Su-27s while carrying AIM-120B/C missiles.

The experience is somewhat comparable to flying SF2 Europe F-15A vs MiG-23s in the mid 1970s.

My one complaint is that the AI in SF2 is far more aggressive and accurate when it comes to close-in dogfights.

I would love to be able to tune/specify AI dogfight skills/tactics in DCS ranging from novices barely able to take off and navigate to aces that push the envelope to the edge in every dimension.

The party really starts once the MiG-21 is released, then I can fly almost 100% historically appropriate aircraft against each other as a pilot from either side.

 

[Stratos 3,191]

Fishbeds against Eagles will be a bit unbalanced, no??

Fishbeds against Eagles will be a bit unbalanced, no??

[MigBuster 2,884]

If proof were needed that another sim always does something else better!
 

[+streakeagle 871]

SF2 AI has a long and sordid history. For the longest time, the best AI dogfight logic was in SFP1 SP2a. From the release of WoV until the release of WoI (quite a few years), the AI could hit me with guns if I flew in front of it in a straight line.

From WoI on to the present patch revision of SF2NA, it generally continued to improve, or at least remain as good as it was.

 

In some areas, it is still too stupid. In some areas it is has been made too smart. I have never like the fact that the AI will automatically drop whatever it is doing to engage you if you padlock/target him. This was done to make the dogfights more interesting and challenging for the player instead of having most of the action take place between AI opponents. It makes the game more like a movie where you are the star/hero and get to hog all the glory. Additionally, the AI at some point lost visual arc restrictions. You can approach low and from his dead 6 when he is the only plane in the sky and he will react as if he can see you, even if he has no RWR or your radar is off. This was another fix to address the complaint about AI tending to fly straight and level when you attacked them from behind, never reacting to your shots or their exploding wingmen. 

 

But for all the flaws/cheats to make the game "better" for the player, the AI can't see through clouds and will use somewhat appropriate tactics and skill to engage you.

I can beat an F-15A fairly consistently while flying a MiG-21bis or MiG-23MF, which shows that the AI can't fly the F-15A as well as it should when set to max pilot quality... but to be fair, I have to fly very low, be very patient, and carefully use doppler notch techniques just to get within dogfight range, then fly nearly perfect hi yo-yo and lo yo-yo maneuvers to slowly gain an angle advantage and try to work in a shot before running out of fuel. Saying I can win consistently is not the same as saying I can win easily!

 

In DCS, when I fly the F-15C against MiG-23s, MiG-29s, and Su-27s or fly the MiG-29/Su-27 against F-4Es, F-15Cs, and F-16Cs, the AI flies in a way that seems more defensive. I don't always win, but I easily end up on the tail of my target and his wingman (wingmen when I do 1 vs 4 fights) usually leaves me alone until after I have killed the flight leader. When I die, it is because I got too focused on killing the flight leader and lost track of where the wingman/wingmen went. The AI is so predictable, that I can derive a formula for winning that will work every time as long as I don't make any big mistakes, especially not losing situational awareness while engaging/killing any one target.

 

Basic rules for me to win in DCS with an F-15C:

1) Lock on and kill the leader first. He is the only one really trying to get you. 

2) Engage at long range in a way that the target knows you have fired, i.e. use STT and an AIM-7M. The target will immediately turn to break the lock/evade the missile. He will lose lock on you and any radar guided missiles he has launched will go ballistic.

3) If you have the patience/balls to hold AIM-7 fire until it is within optimum launch range and successfully hit on the first shot, you will have plenty of time to go into vertical aquisition mode and roll left to lockup and shoot the lead's wingman. If you have done this quickly and correctly in a 1 vs 2 situation, you will never even get to dogfight. Both bogeys will get an AIM-7M in the face and you should be undamaged.

 

I can replicate this over and over: fire AIM-7, watch bandit break and dive left, and wait for results, then roll left and hunt down survivors one at a time.

Whereas if he had some balls, he would maintain lock and watch the missile he launched well ahead of my launch force me to break my lock on him to evade and possibly get killed.

As long as he has exactly the same response to my actions, I can push him into my weapons. If I can get the job done quickly, the surviving wingman/wingmen will never get a shot off on me.

[JediMaster 451]

Good AI has long been the bane of flight sims.

[+streakeagle 871]

Even with the limitations of the current DCS AI, using a single F-15C with 4xAIM-7M/4xAIM-9P against 2xSu-27 with R-27ET/R-27ER/AA-11 pushes my limits.

Even exploiting the AI response to the AIM-7M launch on the leader, sometimes I get shot in the face before I can get even one kill.

I usually kill one of them, but die looking for the other one.

But I finally got them as good as I get the MiG-23 and MiG-29: only one shot at me with no hits on me, clean kills on them:

3 x AIM-7M at the leader, then came around and found the wingman before he fired on me and used the last AIM-7M to get him to turn and run.

Closed while he was climbing vertically to reverse back into me, fired an AIM-9P.

Shot him with guns just before the AIM-9P hit... he couldn't be more dead.

 

In SF2, I can notch my opponents radar and make them miss at will with radar missiles.

Having a lot harder time dodging missiles once I go on the defensive in DCS.

Once they get in close enough for them to unleash AA-11s, I pretty much die after burning up my E and losing my SA dodging AA-10s.

 

In Vietnam/Israel era combat the missiles aren't nearly as likely to hit as long as you don't fly straight and their smoke trails make them much easier to spot/evade.

So you have more options to disengage, re-engage, or simply press the attack with very little regard for the missiles.

Flying a gunless brick against an agile gunfighter makes for some of the most challenging and fun dogfights, the sooner DCS gets some early to mid Cold War Era planes in the mix, the happier I will be.

Really sad that the F-104G project was abandoned and it doesn't sound like Leatherneck is going to do the MiG-23MF anytime soon.

So for now, I am eagerly awaiting the final release of the F-15C AFM and look forward to the F-86.

[JediMaster 451]

When (hopefully) DCS World gets a more stable codebase I think we'll see more planes for it.

[+streakeagle 871]

I know a lot of aircraft are constrained by unmodeled systems: radar and various avionics not present on any existing DCS level aircraft.

The F-15C should at least have educated ED if not 3rd parties on transonic/supersonic aerodynamics, particularly the transonic region where published data is minimal and linear mathematical modeling is inaccurate.

Of course, I want the F-4 and many others want the F-14, and that is further complicated by the 2-seat issue. Multiplayer backseat support as full DCS level would be nice to have, but ED support game play when a backseater is unavailable. Of course, the SF2 approach for allowing the pilot to easily manipulate the radar/weapon/navigation systems as if he was giving simple commands to a skilled back seater is an easy way to go that avoids the need to develop complex AI. I don't expect to see a proper two-seater with a RIO/WSO any time soon... if ever. The progress on the UH-1H co-pilot/gunners has been impressive, if somewhat limited compared to a RIO/WSO in a supersonic interceptor with radar.

It was interesting to see that A2A first postponed its F-4 to develop an F-104, then sidelined both with the present plan to attempt a T-33 when time permits. I am guessing that modeling jet engines and transonic/supersonic flight at the level A2A likes to achieve is presently far beyond their time/manpower/knowledge level. Whereas their target audience is pretty much just as happy getting Piper Cubs, Cessna 172s, and unarmed WW2 aircraft. I can't blame them for focusing on readily achievable goals that will be highly profitable. The complexity of the F-4 will only appeal to a very small niche. Why must I be that small niche? If it wasn't for TK, I would be stuck flying Jane's Fighters Anthology, Jane's USAF, or flying an F-16 reskinned as an F-4 in Falcon BMS. There is a reason SF2 was the number one sim on my hard drive for a decade and even now gets 25-50% of my PC flying time. 

[+streakeagle 871]

Gaining proficiency in beating the 2xSu-27s with only AIM-7Ms and AIM-9Ps. My flying/evasion/weapons/countermeasure employment hasn't gotten much if any better. But I am learning how to read the AI's intentions and exploit his moves. There are a couple of alternatives depending on how the AI reacts to my first AIM-7M shot. He usually turns away and loses his lock on me before his missile gets me, then either he turns back towards me and allows a nearly optimum short range AIM-7 shot or he runs away trying to drag me for his wingman. If I get him quick with an AIM-7, I struggle to find the wingman before the wingman gets me. If he runs, I try to shift targets and kill the wingman with an optimum short range AIM-7 shot. But then I have to struggle to figure out where the leader is before he shoots me. If they get an AA-11 off before I can threaten them with an AIM-7 shot, I almost always die. But when I have managed to maintain situational awareness and/or just gotten a lucky auto acquisition while pulling my nose around, I can kill the wingman quick for no damage.

 

In SF2, I would simply go low, give them my beam, and watch them waste their missiles trying to hit a nearly impossible target. When they got close enough, I would enter a turn fight and patiently wait for a good tail aspect shot. But the DCS AI is really good at handling this: they get in close, use IR and/or helmet sights to make AA-11 shots to kill me quick. So, when it comes to missile combat, I can see the DCS AI using tactics good enough to beat me, particularly when they outnumber me 2:1. If the DCS AI could manage at least a 50% win rate in 1 vs 1 BVR fights with the above loadouts, I would call it pretty good since the Su-27 and its AA-10C/AA-11 missiles are a bit better than the F-15C with the AIM-7M and AIM-9P. It is only when I close to gun range that I see the DCS AI lose almost every time, even when they outnumber 4:1. Of course, SF2 is the other way around. Hard to get the AI to use missiles correctly, but great in a close-in gunfight.