This Sim Needs More Aircraft

[FastCargo 412]

This discussion reminds me of something a simulator builder (as in the simulators for airlines, the FAA, military, etc) once stated:

 

"If you put everything a pilot wants into a simulator, you will end up building the actual aircraft."

 

I would add this - "...and it will probably be more expensive than the aircraft, because you're trying to simulate reality too."

 

The trick simulator builders (especially those who focus on post-1950's air combat) is trying to find where the top of the bell curve between arcade and simulation is (ie the balance where you will find the most people willing to buy).  Add to this the complexity in single player of proper AI balance, and you have a tough nut to crack.

 

I'm wondering if all the time and money the various developers are pouring into their products will EVER yield a positive ROI.

 

FC

[JediMaster 451]

The problem is the market itself has contracted a lot, but the range of desires is the same. So while before you had (for example) 1 million people wanting a hardcore rivet-counting sim, and 2 million wanting a Flaming Cliffs-level relaxed one and 5 million wanting a Jane's FA/SF2-level game, now you have like 10,000, 20,000, and 50,000.

 

The rivet counters have always been the most vocal, and as a result they've had things more their way than not, but you can't make a good modern sim for 10,000 people at a regular price and make a profit. Even 100,000 is hard, and all those people aren't going for it anyway.

 

This one says "too complex". That one says "not complex enough." Another says "I don't care about pushing buttons, all I want is WWII birds" and his friend says "I don't want history, gimme something that at least has flown in combat THIS century."

 

The niches all still exist, and the occupants are as stubborn and ornery about what they want as ever...but all of them have shrunken while dev costs have gone up (because more can be simulated now). It's frankly entering a death spiral, and if something doesn't reverse it...since a simple halt of decline IMO isn't going to cut it...we'll all be flying sims from the last 10-15 years FOREVER as nothing new will come out after 2015 or so.

 

Our grandchildren will see us on these decades-old PCs still running that prehistoric Win 8.1 and want to know A) how we can stand visuals and interfaces that are so primitive while B) the sims are so impossible to learn and enjoy.

[+ST0RM 145]

I liked the SF2 level of gameplay. I just hated the lack of A-to-G targeting and patches that locked and broke many things.

 

DCS has a good following as well, but most are not the hardcore players they are currently aiming at.

 

-S

[Stratos 3,192]

I liked the SF2 level of gameplay. I just hated the lack of A-to-G targeting and patches that locked and broke many things.

 

DCS has a good following as well, but most are not the hardcore players they are currently aiming at.

 

-S

 

I like SF level of complexity too. BUT lacking A-G radar, FLIR, NVG and refueling is killing the immersion for me.

[MigBuster 2,884]

People always want more and push and push - that's why you end up with Hardcore. Where do you draw the boundary?? well TK was happy where he was which was understandable - but for those who have been flying years they often want more of this and that.

 

FC3 is exactly the level you need - about Falcon 4.0 1998 level 

 

The BMS Falcon F-16 and DCS A-10C are almost pure simulators regarding avionics and flight model and you can learn so much if you want -  also its a great challenge having to deal with setting up avionics on top of everything else in combat scenarios personally.

[JediMaster 451]

I also think people need to fly the 1998 F4 again and forget about BMS for a minute. F4 was made with a bigger budget than any current sim, and a fairly long dev cycle. And it fell short in a LOT of ways. Not talking about graphics, as they were competitive for the day (although not the best), but in the other areas. It took a year of patches to make it basically work right, forget about accuracy.

 

After that we've had 15 years of post-release work by tons of modders with no release date, no financial stake, no need to make money off it. This is not something to compare other commercial products to, you can't compare.

 

F4 WAS an FC-level sim. It had a dynamic campaign, yes, a better UI and all that appearance stuff, but the SIM part for the F-16 was no better than the F-15C we have in FC3 right now. Yes, the BMS F-16 is now A-10C level, but that's not what we got for our $50 in 1998.

 

What we got in 1998 was a broken mess that showed potential but was no better than CloD in actually WORKING. Once we got the 1.08 patch and it worked, it was basically a FC-level F-16C.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Nearly right - Lead Pursuit went the commercial route with Allied Force - although not sure if any of their work ever made it to BMS - ED-1 sometimes posts but that's about it.

 

 

 

DCS A-10C was also off the back of an ANG contract AFAIK - which is why I am thinking FA-18C might not be to the same level unless another C operator has asked for a desktop sim.

[Stratos 3,192]

I own and play Falcon 4 BMS I learned it's sistems and enjoy playing on it, and I will enjoy playing on DCS F/A-18C, the A-10C is a plane that don't hold my attention for too long. But in a SF2 series with the features I'm requesting we will be able to fly Tomcats, F-16, F-15E, F-18 and SH...

Of course is on TK hands unless he wants to tell us how avionics files work.

[JediMaster 451]

Still don't know what happened with LP. F4AF by all rights was a sales success, and they were working on a new plane (Beagle IIRC?) for it, and then...nothing. Died with a whimper.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Last message I saw was they hadn't given up - even though LP don't exist anymore as of about 2010 - but they could have put about 4 years into what ever it was they were doing - wonders what happened to that...........

[JediMaster 451]

Well, I'm confused then, because I thought LP was the one who had the rights to do it? So if LP is gone, doesn't that mean it's done?

 

I don't know what they might have gotten done beforehand, but if it was selling well it does make you wonder what happened behind the scenes that resulted in years without an update (not one screenshot) and the subsequent disintegration of the only new Western flight sim maker in the 21st century with nary a peep. Whatever they managed to get done must not have been even close to finishing, especially if 4 years later someone claims to still be working on it with, again, not a word or picture.

Edited May 29, 2014 by JediMaster

[+ST0RM 145]

Didnt know where else to put this, so here it goes.

 

While looking over the many pics from Waddo that are on display, the Polish AF's Su-22 caught my eye.

 

IMO, this would be a great addition to DCS. The avionics are simple, without PGM capability. Point and shoot mostly. Something simple without over complication.

[MigBuster 2,884]

You mean FC3 level detail - like the Su-25A?

 

I would enjoy it - but then again I'm the minority..............
 

[+ST0RM 145]

You mean FC3 level detail - like the Su-25A?

 

I would enjoy it - but then again I'm the minority..............

 

 Yes, exactly.

 

I dont think you are the minority. I just think the rivet counting/full real crowds are the most vocal and loudest. Most of us simply want a well balanced sim. Not overly difficult, good A-to-A/A-to-G features but enough challenge to keep your interest.

[MigBuster 2,884]

Well I also meant that an Su-22 might suit people who have been flying F-4s for 10 years in the CW era - but might not suit people who want F-15E/Su-35/F-35 etc

 

 

Anyone who followed Thirdwire over the past 10 years knows this:

 

• TWs jets had a lot of detail but were far lighter than FC3 standard.
• The only reason we had so many terrains and aircraft because they were so much easier to make.
• The model was barely financially viable at a time before phone / Tablet PCs took over.

 

 

I would say FC3 level was adequate and more financially sustainable - maybe with a view to turn just a few of them into DCS A-10C.

 

Thirdwire also merged everything into a single game engine back in 2008 - lets hope that ED dont have to follow TW out of the sim business!