Should I feel flattered.....?

[+Sundowner 4,819]

Hands up who likes skinning ?

Ahhhh, lots of you, well define skinning.

To me it means creating as accurate a representation of the real thing as possible, colours, lines, rivets, vents etc, etc. But what about all the other bits ? you know, landing gear, wells, interiors of airbrakes & god only knows what else our great model maker has put there for us.

But before all that comes the research....countless hours going through books searching the net for actual "in use" photos, even contacting crews that were involved at the time.( btw I've just sold off 145 of my books and deleted nearly 35,000 photos of stuff I'm no longer interested in.) Trust me I DO LOTS of research !!

So to me skinning is much more that just replacing a few lines, rivets & some "historically correct " serials or whatever.

But what really pisses me off big time is when somebody does that to an already available skin, mod or whatever and then tells you to overwrite the original authors work.....you have no rights to just say "my work is better than yours, so we dont need yours anymore.

In my view a separate version should be made available so that the end user can make their own choice of what they like best, I know you can advise folks to backup their originals but some folks just are not clever.....Trust me, I know.

The updated ODS30 mod is a perfect example of how to do things, its been created as a standalone mod with all the needed parts included within...... no overwriting of any-one's original work already in the downloads section. 

Some of you have been asking why I no longer post my work......well, the above has happened to me too often.

Even the aircraft I've re-modelled from the old Alpha Sim freeware get a complete rebuild and remapped, I never use ANY of the original textures.

Hard fact is unless you've skinned from an all black with green lines texture map showing the locations of the various parts, you are not a true skinner, you cant call enlarging a skin and the retracing all the lines etc for the higher resolution "your work".

Your work is when you've had to position those lines and everything else in the first place.....just copying the old stuff is no effort at all AND if the original author got it wrong then so have YOU...no improvement whatsoever....good for the ego but not for the holy grail of accuracy, historical or otherwise.

Sooo, what's caused me to say all this stuff?

Well basically it's the ODS30 mod that caused me to notice it, I know I've painted a shed load of planes over the years, but I was shocked at how many are still using my original work in places, I know this because I used make custom brushes for "generic" stuff like access panels, hinges weathering & "stuff" shall we say. They are very easy for me to spot. I also painted a lot of aircraft I had no real interest in, so they just got a "something like" skin just so we could get it released. It's amazing how many are still being used.

But before you all think I'm pissed off by this, well I can assure you I'm not ! I don't know if to feel flattered that some of this stuff is still passable all these years later or should I feel saddened that nobody has taken the time to cure all the inaccuracy's that I originally produced.

The work being turned out by our current full on skinners and model makers is just simply awesome, way better than any of the old stuff. Just look at ravenclaw's  weapons, holy moly, they make a lot of the models they are attached to look really poor. ( as a side note for DA, ravenclaw and I have worked together for many years, sharing max files, templates and generally doing everything we can for the good old F-4)

There are a lot of models in the download sections that are perfectly good, they just need some nice new clothes.......not a few rivets etc but a total redraw

It's all well and good doing "historically correct" (that always makes me laugh) but if the skin itself is not right  well what's the point?

Happy days.

[+EricJ 4,245]

Well... I guess I can agree, and maybe say "okay" to this. I know I did the Super Hornet PSDs (even had to update them recently), but it's there for other users to make, and I encourage (though not well) because I don't want to do every freaking skin for the plane by myself. That's what the templates are for, for other people to create their own skins, and maybe make me look like I need to improve, which I'm not sure if I have to or not. But it's a flattering thing to see your work though being used and people liking it.

[+daddyairplanes 10,238]

i have skinned several for v2k from black with wireframe (well his version of such, which is pastel blobs over the major pieces). so yes,  if im doing something established, i greatly appreciate an excellent base to start on. it takes more skill to do it from scratch, and must have been an extreme pain in the pre LODviewer days (i only got started a year or two prior to that tool). it take skill and experience to make a 5 star dinner, but when you've worked in the kitchen along time you learn to appreciate any prep or short cuts if you dont have to be totally showing off scratch skills.

i like to make skins based on a units appearance and make up over a given timeframe.  so im going to make it for myself regardless, and i tend to like topics that arent present right now (like mid 90s). since im making it anyhow, why keep it just for myself? somebody else might be interested in units that rotated through for the Balkans, or in Desert Storm, or in SAC in the 1980s.

as for recent credits, i had been using Eagles from viper63s packs, and updated with templates they provided. so to best of my knowledge it was layering over his work. he credits you and wpnssgt for general textures, and a few others for specific ones. do you want me to credit you for original textures in recent Eagle releases and have ODS team credit you there? there is no sarcasm or ill intent in my question.

as to how to feel, thats totally on you. i was  talking with someone else about markings. they mentioned to me that 90% of end users dont know the difference and dont care. for my particular bits, i know and care. for yours you knew and cared when you made them. but it was pointed out to me that most folks say "ooh shiny" and dont look that closely. so 90% think its good enough even all these years later. 5% think its pretty good, and think they have something to add to it. 5% are unhappy with it but would probably be unhappy with a golden ticket to the Wonka factory too.  but it is confusing seeing your posts of the last few months as many do come across as you pissed about how things are going at least initially

final bit in response to your specific note to me:  it is no where near as extensive as the collaboration you and Volker have had, but i did get the Viper templates i used straight from him and he made several of the two seater versions of the various F-16 blocks as well as a new ADF. the skin work he left to me since i was the one more interested in the topic (mid 90s USAF and Air National Guard Vipers). i try to ask before every major project if the person is availble to ask and collaborate as much as i can with original modellers. but alot of folks have stepped out over the years as well, so then i do my best to credit the original folks that worked it.

[AcariaPlainum 35]

11 hours ago, Sundowner said:

Hands up who likes skinning ?

Ahhhh, lots of you, well define skinning.

To me it means creating as accurate a representation of the real thing as possible, colours, lines, rivets, vents etc, etc. But what about all the other bits ? you know, landing gear, wells, interiors of airbrakes & god only knows what else our great model maker has put there for us.

But before all that comes the research....countless hours going through books searching the net for actual "in use" photos, even contacting crews that were involved at the time.( btw I've just sold off 145 of my books and deleted nearly 35,000 photos of stuff I'm no longer interested in.) Trust me I DO LOTS of research !!

So to me skinning is much more that just replacing a few lines, rivets & some "historically correct " serials or whatever.

But what really pisses me off big time is when somebody does that to an already available skin, mod or whatever and then tells you to overwrite the original authors work.....you have no rights to just say "my work is better than yours, so we dont need yours anymore.

In my view a separate version should be made available so that the end user can make their own choice of what they like best, I know you can advise folks to backup their originals but some folks just are not clever.....Trust me, I know.

The updated ODS30 mod is a perfect example of how to do things, its been created as a standalone mod with all the needed parts included within...... no overwriting of any-one's original work already in the downloads section. 

Some of you have been asking why I no longer post my work......well, the above has happened to me too often.

Even the aircraft I've re-modelled from the old Alpha Sim freeware get a complete rebuild and remapped, I never use ANY of the original textures.

Hard fact is unless you've skinned from an all black with green lines texture map showing the locations of the various parts, you are not a true skinner, you cant call enlarging a skin and the retracing all the lines etc for the higher resolution "your work".

Your work is when you've had to position those lines and everything else in the first place.....just copying the old stuff is no effort at all AND if the original author got it wrong then so have YOU...no improvement whatsoever....good for the ego but not for the holy grail of accuracy, historical or otherwise.

Sooo, what's caused me to say all this stuff?

Well basically it's the ODS30 mod that caused me to notice it, I know I've painted a shed load of planes over the years, but I was shocked at how many are still using my original work in places, I know this because I used make custom brushes for "generic" stuff like access panels, hinges weathering & "stuff" shall we say. They are very easy for me to spot. I also painted a lot of aircraft I had no real interest in, so they just got a "something like" skin just so we could get it released. It's amazing how many are still being used.

But before you all think I'm pissed off by this, well I can assure you I'm not ! I don't know if to feel flattered that some of this stuff is still passable all these years later or should I feel saddened that nobody has taken the time to cure all the inaccuracy's that I originally produced.

The work being turned out by our current full on skinners and model makers is just simply awesome, way better than any of the old stuff. Just look at ravenclaw's  weapons, holy moly, they make a lot of the models they are attached to look really poor. ( as a side note for DA, ravenclaw and I have worked together for many years, sharing max files, templates and generally doing everything we can for the good old F-4)

There are a lot of models in the download sections that are perfectly good, they just need some nice new clothes.......not a few rivets etc but a total redraw

It's all well and good doing "historically correct" (that always makes me laugh) but if the skin itself is not right  well what's the point?

Happy days.

Well its just the nature of Art i guess people work over it be proud your legacy lives on

[+Sundowner 4,819]

@ Daddyairplanes,

You are right, I've been more and more pissed off over the last 12 months or so but it all stems from the same basic thing & that is the overwriting of someone else's work, sure, if you dont agree with the colours,decals fonts or whatever of a particular model, then certainly go ahead and make your own, that's why I've uploaded so many templates over the years, I've wanted folks to do their own thing and upload them for us all to use but I did'nt intend them to replace my original work like has been done too many times. I was hoping for multiple uploads of the same skin in different users versions of what they feel the best colours etc are, it's called freedom of choice. And that's exactly how it used to be done, we all had respect for each others work, there was no need to try to "compete" as it seems now.

In the F-15 thread you basically said that I'd used a colour picker on a photo to get a colour reference, LOL, Trust me I've never done that! But I've done just about every else, fs numbers, hex values & god knows what else. (try skinning on a monitor calibrated for photography work, that will really mess with your head)  But I can state for a fact that if lets say five of us used exactly the same Hex values or fs colour chip on a skin, at least one of us would say that the colour looked a little "off", not wholly wrong but just now how they would have chosen it to look....hence the need for more of this variety as apposed to the ego pushed version of things we've been seeing just lately.

Also what I dont want to happen here is for folks to think that there is a rift between me and you, because in my view there is not. You know why I decided to stop uploading any more work, but seeing as you've done a huge amount of work on the MF factory Boeing 707 and C-135 series of birds I'm going to use you as an example but users please be aware that this happens all over the downloads.

My statement is how would you feel if tomorrow I re-released a full on remodelled and remapped version of 707's & C-135's and did it so that ALL of your hard work was to be overwritten as it's junk/crap less "historically accurate"

Like I said DA this is'nt aimed at you personally there's a few offenders on here and they know who they are.

But lets move on, my health is screwing me over a bit more just lately as some of you know, but with the recent announcement from Gkabs to take a look at redoing some of the older models we've been in contact with a view of me supplying some of the many max files I have sitting on various drives for him and his team to work their magic on so hopefully we'll be seeing new not a re-hash of my poor old 20 year old attempts.

Btw any of you want to make custom brushes etc for the likes of nostep/nopush marks weathering or anything it's really easy to do just ask.......just think of all those little yellow marks on JASDF planes......loads easier than copying layers.

[+daddyairplanes 10,238]

as for color picker, i said it felt like that happened. but i did also say i would be corrected if i was wrong!  i have had some conversations in the past were the other sides arguement was a scanned pic, rather than a hex value or color chip or anything else that doesnt have as much wiggle room as an old picture.

as for the rest,  all i can say is that time moves on and you've been very up and down in showing up around here the last few years,  more so down with the released mods. i do know i am usually pleasantly suprised when i see you have a post in the WIP or Screenshot threads.

and if GKABS and his team are getting your max files, that is seriously awesome. 

you, BPAO, ravenclaw, eburger, and several others did do very awesome work at teh beginning of this, in the SF1 days and earlier. stuff that really does still hold up decently today. yes, there are better models and skins, because there are better software, tools and computers today than 20 years ago. just look at teh lodviewer as one example. alot of the work done in the past is somewhat hampered by its success, not many newer modders want to spend their time on those because their still pretty good and why reinvent the wheel if its not squeaking?