SEAD in Vietnam

[Mr_Tayto 140]

Hey all,

 

I've been practicing in The Range deploying a few different weapons types to try to prepare myself for the inevitable SEAD missions as a 105 driver, but I still have a few questions.

 

- How does one deploy CBU24 without CCIP? Is shallow diving preferred? Given I'm attacking AAA I don't want to get too close to the guns but I have the best results against inert targets in the range in a shallow dive releasing under 3000ft, which is danger close for low calibre weapons.

- Is it better to drop two at once until Winchester, or single bombs per target?

- Finally, I have graduated(!) to flying without the HUD now I'm comfortable with the instruments in all aircraft. However this makes SEAD very difficult in terms of rendering targets. A good example of this is SAM sites; these are not displayed in game as they were in real life, with obvious "star of David" patterned installations. Often, the first time you see one is the launch tail. It's even worse for gun sites, where you can have a momentary flash or a puff of smoke, but you have to be very low to even see the smoke let alone the gun, and I'm trying to operate above 6000ft until making a run.

 

Any Vietnam guys have any ideas on the above. Before it's mentioned I have seen every Devin Horner video and I still need help!

[OlWilly 130]

19 minutes ago, Mr_Tayto said:

- Finally, I have graduated(!) to flying without the HUD now I'm comfortable with the instruments in all aircraft. However this makes SEAD very difficult in terms of rendering targets. A good example of this is SAM sites; these are not displayed in game as they were in real life, with obvious "star of David" patterned installations. Often, the first time you see one is the launch tail. It's even worse for gun sites, where you can have a momentary flash or a puff of smoke, but you have to be very low to even see the smoke let alone the gun, and I'm trying to operate above 6000ft until making a run.

It's simple, you don't. Why do you think US took such heavy casualties from AAA fire?

Things like ZU-23 or ZPU-4 could be camouflaged so well that you wouldn't be able to spot them until they fire. And mind you, in real life Vietnam has lush vegetation, meaning that you are looking for a small AAA in the midst of endless bushes and tall grass. Not on a flat texture like in the game.

The basic idea was that if one pilot sees something that he thinks is the gun flash of NVA AAA and then dumps there a load of munitions, hoping to hit something.

Speaking of SAMs, your best friend here is RWR.

The "star" pattern of S-75 deployment was abandoned fairly quickly in favor of more camouflaged approach.

Just let them track you, RWR will tell you where to go. AI is not taught to switch off the radars so you can get as precise as you want.

 

 

You can take the easy way though, find the mod that removes the HUD but leaves red square in place.

[Mr_Tayto 140]

25 minutes ago, OlWilly said:

It's simple, you don't. Why do you think US took such heavy casualties from AAA fire?

Things like ZU-23 or ZPU-4 could be camouflaged so well that you wouldn't be able to spot them until they fire. And mind you, in real life Vietnam has lush vegetation, meaning that you are looking for a small AAA in the midst of endless bushes and tall grass. Not on a flat texture like in the game.

The basic idea was that if one pilot sees something that he thinks is the gun flash of NVA AAA and then dumps there a load of munitions, hoping to hit something.

Speaking of SAMs, your best friend here is RWR.

The "star" pattern of S-75 deployment was abandoned fairly quickly in favor of more camouflaged approach.

Just let them track you, RWR will tell you where to go. AI is not taught to switch off the radars so you can get as precise as you want.

 

 

You can take the easy way though, find the mod that removes the HUD but leaves red square in place.

All good points, and I do understand that. Unfortunately, being a game, SF2 registers "success" or "failure" on whether or not you destroy arbitrary targets, not on a post strike assessment or by the success of the strike package in attacking its target without incurring too many losses. Suppression, in real life, doesn't necessarily mean destroying the enemies assets, but tying them up while someone else gets in and does their job. In this way, fighter escort missions works correctly in the game, because success is determined by a %age of escorted aircraft hitting waypoints, rather than the escorts shooting down targets. I have passed several escort missions without firing a shot.

 

So I guess I should just do my best and hit what I can. Wingmen are usually a lot more aggressive and precise at hitting SEAD targets than I can ever be, in any case.

 

And as for RWR... I'm still in 1965 anyway 

[OlWilly 130]

5 minutes ago, Mr_Tayto said:

So I guess I should just do my best and hit what I can. Wingmen are usually a lot more aggressive and precise at hitting SEAD targets than I can ever be, in any case.

I play with red target square only - as a compromise.

In real life, your wingmen will help and duly report the targets they spot so other can engage them. No such thing in the game, they just yell about being shot at

Real life terrain also has more details which will helps to communicate where the target is. Default SF terrains are fairly barren so even if you spot something, good luck remembering where it was after maneuvering

The game engine also has some rendering issues, so objects may simply not render if you are not close enough.

 

Even if you don't want red square, the padlocking should still work

[Mr_Tayto 140]

3 minutes ago, OlWilly said:

Even if you don't want red square, the padlocking should still work

I'll have a look for the HUD mod I think.

[fallout3 12]

I fly the Nam air-ground expansion, too, in USMC Red Devils F-8. The experience is mostly romance with AAA of various kinds.

As far as I know, real life delivery with non-hud optical sight those days calls for the pilot to look up ballistics of the ordnance or pre-calculated attack patterns from respective manuals, and then calculate with various other factors like target altitude/local weather to determine the depression he needs to set for the sight reticle. He then flys at this predetermined angle (glide bombing or dive bombing) and speed towards target and release when target reaches center dot of the reticle or some predetermined part of reticle. This is why CCIP got the CC for continuously (and automatically) calculating the impact point in flight, instead of manually calculating for once before flight, or by the pilot, relatively slowly, in flight. It is also very desirable for pilots to memorize several typical release patterns and certain ballistic data for use, so he could pick one pattern when a target appears, check its altitude from map and adjust for observed metrological conditions, then attack.

In SF2 non-CCIP release is almost all guesswork. Even in real life, pre-hud and CCIP/CCRP release also always calls for the seat of pant feel to certain degrees. For targets like AA or moored PT boats I try to dive bomb at angle as high as possible, 90 degrees sometimes, to improve accuracy and minimze chance of being hit. I presume that certain AA weapons in SF2 have max elevation less than 90 degrees. 

My observation is that soviet-made AA, especially the small caliber ones, are very deadly in SF2 Nam as in reality, so I was forced to jink constantly almost until weapons release. Otherwise you will very probably lose a wing before gun/rocket range, given they have bigger guns than you and no care for their own lives and how fragile SF2 planes by default are.

Usually I drop bombs singly against small, individual targets like single AA, for if one doe not hit so small a target, usually nor would two or more do. The exception is when you really want to destroy that particular target, when you could release quickly in train to "walk" the trail of impact points through target.

However, for larger, area, or linear target(s) like power stations or truck convoy or bridges, especially those heavily defended by AA, it might be more preferrable to get in and drop the whole load to ensure that you have enough coverage to hit the target, and that the bomb(s) that hit add up with enough explosive to destroy the target. At the same time, doing only one pass minimilizes you change of getting hit. 

It`s hard to see any ground target in SF2, actually, except for moving units with the dust trail. What I do is trying to remember the ground texture color patch the AA muzzleflash/missile plume is found in, and keep an eye on it, better if there are landmarks like distinctively shapes bushes or hootches nearby for reference. Still, you could only see the target 3D model when really close, with all the jinking you have to do. Especially as I usually fly fully zoomed out without hud, and only zoom in seconds before attack.

I certainly wish that SF2 could have a feature that display outside objects larger with distance for better detection, as the cockpit view is zoomed out, though the end effect might be grotesque. Currently, as FOV increase everything is zoomed out as the computer display is fixed-size, so if you choose to fly with a (somehow) "realistic", zoomed-out pilot`s view, everything outside cockpit becomes harder to detect, and you could no longer see what you could see when zoomed-in, even if the object is at the same distance. Falcon 4 had the option of increasing display size of 3-D objects, but that`s a global setting and will make objects bigger regardless of their distance to you.

Good Luck, and let MiGs whisper their wisdom into your ear like in the screenshot :P

 

[Mr_Tayto 140]

12 hours ago, fallout3 said:

As far as I know, real life delivery with non-hud optical sight those days calls for the pilot to look up ballistics of the ordnance or pre-calculated attack patterns from respective manuals, and then calculate with various other factors like target altitude/local weather to determine the depression he needs to set for the sight reticle. He then flys at this predetermined angle (glide bombing or dive bombing) and speed towards target and release when target reaches center dot of the reticle or some predetermined part of reticle. This is why CCIP got the CC for continuously (and automatically) calculating the impact point in flight, instead of manually calculating for once before flight, or by the pilot, relatively slowly, in flight. It is also very desirable for pilots to memorize several typical release patterns and certain ballistic data for use, so he could pick one pattern when a target appears, check its altitude from map and adjust for observed metrological conditions, then attack.

Oh yes I'm aware, and trust me I have researched this method now to the nth degree to try to maximise effectiveness in SF2, up to an including editing .ini files to adjust the mil settings for A2G mode ; it doesn't work, it's still TLAR bombing whatever you do. I did find a couple of bombing charts for shallow (27deg) and high angle (50deg), the last one by Devin Horner. I find for larger, strategic targets, the 50deg method is fine early war but drops off massively a few months in as SA-2 starts to be quite numerous unless you use Hi-Lo-Hi profiles (i.e. ingress at treetop before climbing above 12k ft to initiate the dive).

For smaller targets I find the 27deg works really well as if you get the (stock mil setting) pipper on target at release height, but it leaves you very vulnerable in low-permissive environments like RP5 and 6 because your roll in is 10kft. Imagine doing this 5-8 times, once per target, and how many SAMs get fired at you (let alone AAA) - without an RWR!

 

Sometimes the game feels like an art installation, teaching you about the folly of war and the loss you the flower of American youth. From 1968 onwards (imo) in the F-105D, every flight feels like a suicide mission you're lucky to survive, in the unlikely event you do.

 

EDIT: Almost forgot to share the bombing charts!

 

 

Edited August 18 by Mr_Tayto

[+EricJ 4,249]

I think you should to The Range and perfect your skills before heading into a combat zone first. I mean I don't do much practice anymore because well, I don't fly missions anymore, but overall The Range will get you comfortable with a technique you can apply to bombing small targets and such. It's just easy to carry some bombs, blow up the main target, and then hunt and peck at other targets.

[Mr_Tayto 140]

32 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I think you should to The Range and perfect your skills before heading into a combat zone first. I mean I don't do much practice anymore because well, I don't fly missions anymore, but overall The Range will get you comfortable with a technique you can apply to bombing small targets and such. It's just easy to carry some bombs, blow up the main target, and then hunt and peck at other targets.

This is an old thread, so just take the above as "sharing info" as opposed to continuing to cry for help 

 

I am comfortable with bombing both strategic and tactical targets using the above methods and, most importantly, knowing the aircraft (especially the F-4 hardwings). The one thing The Range can't do is prepare you for Hanoi, sadly, because that's where you'll come unstuck if you're new to it. Even with "just" optically and radar-guided AAA, and 1st generation SAMs, it's the deadliest environment I've ever flown in in 30 years of playing combat flight sims. I think part of that might be the "squashed" nature of the map, it's so easy to dodge a SAM and find yourself in a flak box over an active airbase.

[+EricJ 4,249]

My bad, I got you

[fallout3 12]

On 2024/8/19 at 5:27 AM, Mr_Tayto said:

Oh yes I'm aware, and trust me I have researched this method now to the nth degree to try to maximise effectiveness in SF2, up to an including editing .ini files to adjust the mil settings for A2G mode ; it doesn't work, it's still TLAR bombing whatever you do. I did find a couple of bombing charts for shallow (27deg) and high angle (50deg), the last one by Devin Horner. I find for larger, strategic targets, the 50deg method is fine early war but drops off massively a few months in as SA-2 starts to be quite numerous unless you use Hi-Lo-Hi profiles (i.e. ingress at treetop before climbing above 12k ft to initiate the dive).

For smaller targets I find the 27deg works really well as if you get the (stock mil setting) pipper on target at release height, but it leaves you very vulnerable in low-permissive environments like RP5 and 6 because your roll in is 10kft. Imagine doing this 5-8 times, once per target, and how many SAMs get fired at you (let alone AAA) - without an RWR!

 

Sometimes the game feels like an art installation, teaching you about the folly of war and the loss you the flower of American youth. From 1968 onwards (imo) in the F-105D, every flight feels like a suicide mission you're lucky to survive, in the unlikely event you do.

 

EDIT: Almost forgot to share the bombing charts

Many thanks for the info! I saved them for training sorties~

I agree with your comment on the game being philosophical. Maybe there`s such an aspect since the beginning of the franchise, as I remember someone commenting that TK is somewhat inspired by Area 88 anime to make the SF series.

Sometimes when I duel with flaks in SF2 to take out a foot bridge (not exactly a duel in any sense because there are so many of them firing at you without any decency or mercy), I ask myself if it is wise to be there trying so hard, thousands of miles from the white picket fence of home, trying to blow up several agitated, perhaps brainwashed youngsters who are brought up so cheap by the "one more child, add one more bowl of water (not even rice!) to the rice pot" attitude and considered as much more expendable than the weapon system they operate, with a million-dollar jet and my own life, by means of unguided bombs and rockets and cannons that actually could give me little if any edge over these enemies despite all the great value assumed of my jet and myself.

SF Nam do give moments like this, and thus give us some insights into people who fought there. As many of us, now and due to recent affairs, are beginning to see that Kennedy was more or less right about certain factions in the world always trying to conquer Earth in a domino game of bloodbath if left unchecked, and about checking such unhealthy ambitions requires not only lofty words but also willingness to become "bogged down" boots on ground and make the ultimate sacrifice in mortal, unsung combat, SF may provide a chance for us to not only look into the endurence and vulnerability of humanity, but also appreciate more the aviators who daily went up north into a man-made-hell.

Back to SF tactics, I usually fly Hi-Lo-Hi and drop to the deck entering or leaving NV airspace just beyond effective range of the SAMs. As you said, having no RWR is a major concern, and I have to assume that every SAM launched is launched for me. I do have experiences of SAMs exploding several thousand feet behind and slightly above me when going feet wet. The AI SAM operators never happen to look the other way or become drowsy, and this also makes the seconds of pulling up looking for TGT the most nervous for the whole mission, as keeping 450 or 500 knots won`t do you any good against SAM, and I have to split-S quite often to the extent that if they make it an Olympic event you`ll probably see me there. The MiGs are much less a concern once you learn when to extend and control the engagment...

I abhor all soviet AAA, they are simply Evil, especially when compared with the feeble quad .50s on blue air bases~

 

[Mr_Tayto 140]

2 hours ago, fallout3 said:

Many thanks for the info! I saved them for training sorties~

I agree with your comment on the game being philosophical. Maybe there`s such an aspect since the beginning of the franchise, as I remember someone commenting that TK is somewhat inspired by Area 88 anime to make the SF series.

Sometimes when I duel with flaks in SF2 to take out a foot bridge (not exactly a duel in any sense because there are so many of them firing at you without any decency or mercy), I ask myself if it is wise to be there trying so hard, thousands of miles from the white picket fence of home, trying to blow up several agitated, perhaps brainwashed youngsters who are brought up so cheap by the "one more child, add one more bowl of water (not even rice!) to the rice pot" attitude and considered as much more expendable than the weapon system they operate, with a million-dollar jet and my own life, by means of unguided bombs and rockets and cannons that actually could give me little if any edge over these enemies despite all the great value assumed of my jet and myself.

SF Nam do give moments like this, and thus give us some insights into people who fought there. As many of us, now and due to recent affairs, are beginning to see that Kennedy was more or less right about certain factions in the world always trying to conquer Earth in a domino game of bloodbath if left unchecked, and about checking such unhealthy ambitions requires not only lofty words but also willingness to become "bogged down" boots on ground and make the ultimate sacrifice in mortal, unsung combat, SF may provide a chance for us to not only look into the endurence and vulnerability of humanity, but also appreciate more the aviators who daily went up north into a man-made-hell.

Back to SF tactics, I usually fly Hi-Lo-Hi and drop to the deck entering or leaving NV airspace just beyond effective range of the SAMs. As you said, having no RWR is a major concern, and I have to assume that every SAM launched is launched for me. I do have experiences of SAMs exploding several thousand feet behind and slightly above me when going feet wet. The AI SAM operators never happen to look the other way or become drowsy, and this also makes the seconds of pulling up looking for TGT the most nervous for the whole mission, as keeping 450 or 500 knots won`t do you any good against SAM, and I have to split-S quite often to the extent that if they make it an Olympic event you`ll probably see me there. The MiGs are much less a concern once you learn when to extend and control the engagment...

I abhor all soviet AAA, they are simply Evil, especially when compared with the feeble quad .50s on blue air bases~

 

Brilliant post, very entertaining!

[lastcartridge 1]

Hey yall, sort of tangential to dropping bombs but still Vietnam SEAD related. I'm flying the 105F, with the vietnam air ground expansion, and I notice not all of my gauges are working, or accurate.  Is this a known bug? In the 105D they all worked fine but here in the F the part of the RWR at the top of the canopy that would tell you if it's SAM or AAA radar doesn't light up, the degree to waypoint guidance doesn't seem to match visual indicators or even the little arrow on the heading dial. Also my fuel gauge kind of works but not really? It doesn't show anything for the center tank when I have one in standard SEAD 2 shrike/CBU loadout, the dial just stays top center and never moves, even after I eject the tank. Then like, I flew all the way back to Korat on 2000 lbs of fuel from Hanoi, which, if they modified that J-75 to be THAT efficient, I owe someone a drink. I love my thud I just wanna get her humming like my old D model.  I keep missing with my shrikes too, but that's 100% user error lol

This is my first post here! I hope I didn't break any protocols. Appreciate this site and appreciate you all.

[Mr_Tayto 140]

On 10/8/2024 at 7:56 PM, lastcartridge said:

Hey yall, sort of tangential to dropping bombs but still Vietnam SEAD related. I'm flying the 105F, with the vietnam air ground expansion, and I notice not all of my gauges are working, or accurate.  Is this a known bug? In the 105D they all worked fine but here in the F the part of the RWR at the top of the canopy that would tell you if it's SAM or AAA radar doesn't light up, the degree to waypoint guidance doesn't seem to match visual indicators or even the little arrow on the heading dial. Also my fuel gauge kind of works but not really? It doesn't show anything for the center tank when I have one in standard SEAD 2 shrike/CBU loadout, the dial just stays top center and never moves, even after I eject the tank. Then like, I flew all the way back to Korat on 2000 lbs of fuel from Hanoi, which, if they modified that J-75 to be THAT efficient, I owe someone a drink. I love my thud I just wanna get her humming like my old D model.  I keep missing with my shrikes too, but that's 100% user error lol

This is my first post here! I hope I didn't break any protocols. Appreciate this site and appreciate you all.

Welcome!

 

I haven't flown the WW Thuds yet but have many hours in the ThudD, so I'm interested to find out too.