Iraqi's revolt in Baghdad

[CowboyTodd41 134]

I'm glad to see they really are for us. I always thought they would be but you just never know. Well...it looks like this thing wrapping up rather nicely.

[Dutchy 0]

On tv I saw live the American soldiers and Iraqi people bring down the big statue of Sadam. It was in the middle of Bagdad. People were dancing on the fallen statue. Weird to see those things live when you come home after work.

 

Greetings

Dutchy

[Seawolf 0]

well if any of you are old enough to remember the Berlin wall comming down and how big that was, this ranks up there IMO.

[dia_0602 0]

Hi guys, here a bit of perspective...

 

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commenta...sp?story=395707

[navychief 1]

Now that it is quite obvious that the Iraqi people do appreciate being liberated, I wonder if we will ever hear words from the "Hollywood left" such as, "We were,.....like wrong."

 

 

It will never happen.

 

 

Chief W.

[stevechester 0]

the people dancing for the US today were dancing for saddom 2 months ago. this thing isnt over by a long shot and its way to early to say who is right or who is wrong. the man who blew himself up at a road block and hurt 4 us service personal today didn't seem to appreciate being liberated as much as you would have us to belive. and about the left crack, I vote hard left all the time. I spent 22 yrs in the USA and the USAF, have a son over there and my girl just joined the USAF(it took me a long time to talk he out of joining the navy) so i know my way around, better than most of you who haven't been in service and some of you who have been.

[navychief 1]

Fast Eagle,

 

If you are following this thread, I hope you weigh in, concerning the last post by S. Chester.

 

 

Chief W.

 

UNITED STATES NAVY, Retired

[Dagger 21]

SChester... first I hope your son returns safely and we're proud of all our service men and women.

now for the other stuff..you talked about that guy dancing..2 months ago saddam had the country in a strangle hold with his secret police so they HAD to dance for him.and as for the idiot who blew himself up..well i guess after your army just took "the Mother of all butt kickins!!" well they have to do something and if you notice the people doing these attacks aren't even iraqi soldiers they're terrorists part of the reason we're there to start with.I take my hat off to those who are fighting this war as they are fighting an enemy that doesn't have any problems using human sheids,using religious sites and hospitals as command centers.

I like you spent my time in the service..and spent time in that part of the world...do I like it there? NO..I hate every inch of it and everything about it.do I care about the people there..NO.but I care that our fighting men and women are there and pray for their safe return.so I know my way around also.

[stevechester 0]

first you dont know that the bomber was a member of the military or not, maybe he just hated the us or christans and maybe the dancing people are just as afraid of the US service men with guns. as for the rest, it was said that all were happy the US is now there and i proved that all were not happy. did you not read my post or do you have to reply to someone that does not take the party line here. bty I live next to radford so it seems like we live close to each other.

[dia_0602 0]

What nobody says...

 

30,000 Iraqi civilians and 200,000 soldiers perished during the Gulf War. Over half a million Iraqis have died since, most of them children under five, due to lack of food and medicine, radiation poisoning from our depleted uranium shells, and our continued bombing. Thousands of our own veterans have died from exposure to radioactive depleted uranium munitions, otherwise known as Gulf War Syndrome.

[navychief 1]

dia_0602

 

So now it is the depleted uranium from our bombs that is at fault? Silly me, for thinking that Saddam Hussein and his regime had anything to do with it. You are one misguded individual.

[Dutchy 0]

To dia_0602,

 

What you just say, is unbelievble. You only told about what was after Desert Storm 1991. You don't tell about the terror he did before that year. Under his regime was nobody save. The Ba'ath killed in his name thousands of people, for about 35 years. More than there live in a town like LA.

Okay, there is a Gulf-War Syndrom. That is treu. And after 1991 people died. Sanctions, were not for nothing. People must stand up against him. But there scared. Scared as 35 years of dictatorship. And now the thank the Coalitian that help them to be free. Think about what you said. And read my forum topic about Dictators.

 

Greetings

Dutchy

[dia_0602 0]

About dictatorships...

 

What Americans should learn from history. A long time ago the USA supported a totalitarian regime in Iran, headed by the Shah. In 1978 the Iranian people staged a revolution, overthrew the Shah and installed an Islamic Republic. The USA became Iran's main enemy, and Iran became the USA's main enemy. Two years later the crazy dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, declared war to Iran. Ronald Reagan was president of the USA. Since your enemy's enemies are your friends, Ronald Reagan decided to side with Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein managed to kill one million people and proudly experimented with the chemical weapons that Western countries had helped him acquire. The war lasted till 1988, when Saddam finally gave up. Ronald Reagan did not issue a single condemnation of Saddam Hussein's aggression of Iran or of Saddam Hussein's atrocities against his own people. On the contrary, Reagan accused Iran of sending children to die in the war (Iran had no choice). On the contrary, a missile fired by a USA warship stationed in the Gulf downed an Iranian civilian plane (mistaking it for a warplane) and killed all 290 passengers. Needless to say, this did not make the USA popular in Iran, and it helped Saddam Hussein stay in power in Iraq.

At about the same time, Ronald Reagan helped Saudi Arabia and Pakistan set up a special Islamic brigade to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Reagan asked the Saudis to provide a charismatic leader, and Saudi Arabia came up with a young man, the son of one of Saudi Arabia's most famous tycoons: Osama bin Laden. Osama bin Laden was trained and funded by the CIA, and began his terrorist campaign against the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union finally withdrew from Afghanistan, Osama helped a group of religious extremists, the Taliban, to seize power and install an Islamic Republic in Afghanistan. The Taliban regime was recognized only by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, both allies of the USA.

In the meantime, Saddam Hussein decided to invade Kuwait. The West had watched silently when he invaded Iran, so he figured that it was ok to invade other countries. Unfortunately for him, this time he invaded a country that was a friend of the USA. The new USA president, George Bush, organized a massive coalition to kick Iraq out of Kuwait. In order to do so, Bush stationed American troops in Saudi Arabia.

Osama bin Laden's reason to fight the Soviet Union had been to expel an infidel from a Muslim country. From his point of view, the USA troops stationed in Saudi Arabia were equivalent to the Soviet troops stationed in Afghanistan. If the holy war was justified against the Soviet Union, the same holy war was justified against the USA. Osama bin Laden could also take advantage of Afghanistan, a country kindly abandoned by the USA after the end of the war against the Soviet Union. That is how Osama bin Laden became the USA's number-one enemy.

In the meantime, the USA was supporting the dictatorships of "friendly" Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Disaffected Arabs from those countries joined Osama bin Laden's crusade against the USA. The terrorists of September 11 were from those "friendly" Arab countries and used Afghanistan as a base.

Today, the USA is fighting two wars: one against Osama bin Laden's terrorism and one against Saddam Hussein's regime. Hopefully Americans are learning from their mistakes: both enemies were created by American actions. In fact, both were created by the same president: Ronald Reagan. It is ironic that so many Americans have never blamed Ronald Reagan for September 11 and for the Gulf War, when he (or, better, his reckless stupidity) was in fact the main cause of both.

Lessons learned:

Study history and geography.

Make sure you know what your president is doing on your behalf around the world

Trust historians and scientists, not politicians.

Do not sell weapons to other countries (they may some day use them against you)

Never support dictatorships, because a) the people who get oppressed by those dictators will hate the USA, B) sooner or later those dictators will turn against you, c) the crimes of those dictators will come back to haunt you, d) you lose your moral right to preach other countries

[navychief 1]

I won't deny that past administrations have made mistakes. That does not, however, mean that the current President and his administration should do nothing because of poor judgement. And I do not accept the notion that because of past US foreign policy, that we are to blame for the atrocities that Saddam Hussein has committed!!

 

Our President has made the right choice. The regime in Iraq was evil and dangerous. The UN showed its true worthless colors when it became clear that Saddam Hussein had to be removed from power, and they did nothing but ask for more time for inspections. It is clear that more time would have only given Hussein a chance to increase his offensive capabilities.

 

Liberating Iraq is just. 9/11 was a despicable attack. The US has got to defend itself against terrorists worldwide. Our President has, and is doing his sworn duty to protect our country.

[*Fast Eagle* 0]

Holy s**t I can't believe some of the s**t I'm reading here!!!

First off, dia, you got your head so far up your leftist ass its not funny. Typically, you forget to mention the fact that we have some democrats to blame for the cold war!! Yes, Castro worked for the CIA before he became a Commie pig, and lets not forget about Noriega, emplaced in his country by the CIA as well, of course under a democrat in office as well. Do you leave these points out of your post because you choose to ignore them and hope we are stupid and don't know history, or is it because they trash your arguement?? All through history it has come to haunt us when we have foriegn assets overthrow governments. As for learning from that mistake, well thats for people above my paygrade.

 

And stevechester, I know you have got to be somewhat intelegent, so you can't try to tell me that because 1 person was so f-ing stupid as to blow him self up, that he is the voice of the oppressed nation. This individual has done nothing more than the Palestinians have been doing for decades...martyrdom...stupidity

Let me ask you a question, why do you not support our troops or our actions, do you want people like Saddam to get these WMD and make you live like the Iraqi citizens have for the last 35 years?? Do you want to live in fear every day??? Or do you want to have the right to do as you please, dress as you please, speak as you please, and vote as you please?? You people take for granted what we fight for, your liberties and freedoms, and it makes me pretty sick to risk my life every day for this kinda s**tty disrespect and lack of support

 

On a side note, for those of you who rant and rave about the killing of civillians, I would like to say, that I am against the needless killing of anyone, but the fact of the matter that the blame for any damage to the nation of Iraq solely lies in Saddam's grasp. He as the leader of that nation had the choice not to put his citizens in danger, he had the power to assure their safety, so before you go on your protesting rampage think of these facts

[Dutchy 0]

I have one question for you mr. dia_0602: "Where do you come from?"

Look, not everybody is glad with war. But sometimes must it done. What you told, was not new for me. I did know everything. But times change and regimes also. One day your Enemy is the other day your Friend. And I can tell you that. My neighbour country Germany, started two wars. Now we live in peace. Other regime, other rules. But what I say about dictators is my meaning. I'm glad that I never went in war. But my grandparents are, and I heard their story.

 

Greetings

Dutchy

[Skater 0]

About dictatorships...

 

What Americans should learn from history. A long time ago the USA supported a totalitarian regime in Iran, headed by the Shah. In 1978 the Iranian people staged a revolution, overthrew the Shah and installed an Islamic Republic. The USA became Iran's main enemy, and Iran became the USA's main enemy. Two years later the crazy dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, declared war to Iran. Ronald Reagan was president of the USA. Since your enemy's enemies are your friends, Ronald Reagan decided to side with Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein managed to kill one million people and proudly experimented with the chemical weapons that Western countries had helped him acquire. The war lasted till 1988, when Saddam finally gave up. Ronald Reagan did not issue a single condemnation of Saddam Hussein's aggression of Iran or of Saddam Hussein's atrocities against his own people. On the contrary, Reagan accused Iran of sending children to die in the war (Iran had no choice). On the contrary, a missile fired by a USA warship stationed in the Gulf downed an Iranian civilian plane (mistaking it for a warplane) and killed all 290 passengers. Needless to say, this did not make the USA popular in Iran, and it helped Saddam Hussein stay in power in Iraq.  

At about the same time, Ronald Reagan helped Saudi Arabia and Pakistan set up a special Islamic brigade to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Reagan asked the Saudis to provide a charismatic leader, and Saudi Arabia came up with a young man, the son of one of Saudi Arabia's most famous tycoons: Osama bin Laden. Osama bin Laden was trained and funded by the CIA, and began his terrorist campaign against the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union finally withdrew from Afghanistan, Osama helped a group of religious extremists, the Taliban, to seize power and install an Islamic Republic in Afghanistan. The Taliban regime was recognized only by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, both allies of the USA.  

In the meantime, Saddam Hussein decided to invade Kuwait. The West had watched silently when he invaded Iran, so he figured that it was ok to invade other countries. Unfortunately for him, this time he invaded a country that was a friend of the USA. The new USA president, George Bush, organized a massive coalition to kick Iraq out of Kuwait. In order to do so, Bush stationed American troops in Saudi Arabia.  

Osama bin Laden's reason to fight the Soviet Union had been to expel an infidel from a Muslim country. From his point of view, the USA troops stationed in Saudi Arabia were equivalent to the Soviet troops stationed in Afghanistan. If the holy war was justified against the Soviet Union, the same holy war was justified against the USA. Osama bin Laden could also take advantage of Afghanistan, a country kindly abandoned by the USA after the end of the war against the Soviet Union. That is how Osama bin Laden became the USA's number-one enemy.  

In the meantime, the USA was supporting the dictatorships of "friendly" Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Disaffected Arabs from those countries joined Osama bin Laden's crusade against the USA. The terrorists of September 11 were from those "friendly" Arab countries and used Afghanistan as a base.  

Today, the USA is fighting two wars: one against Osama bin Laden's terrorism and one against Saddam Hussein's regime. Hopefully Americans are learning from their mistakes: both enemies were created by American actions. In fact, both were created by the same president: Ronald Reagan. It is ironic that so many Americans have never blamed Ronald Reagan for September 11 and for the Gulf War, when he (or, better, his reckless stupidity) was in fact the main cause of both.  

Lessons learned:  

Study history and geography.  

Make sure you know what your president is doing on your behalf around the world  

Trust historians and scientists, not politicians.  

Do not sell weapons to other countries (they may some day use them against you)  

Never support dictatorships, because a) the people who get oppressed by those dictators will hate the USA, B) sooner or later those dictators will turn against you, c) the crimes of those dictators will come back to haunt you, d) you lose your moral right to preach other countries

 

 

Keep on trolling...

 

Just remember, we'll give you a lot of rope with which to hang yourself. If you continue to troll, be aware that you can get bounced for such behavior. Just a warning. Keep it civil and sane. Emphasis on the sane.

 

-Skater

[stevechester 0]

fast eagle please read my post please read it i never said i didn't support the troops my son is over there. and why do you cuss so much, i spent 22 yrs in the USAF and USA, assigned to the CID an the OSI and after retirement 4 yrs with the FBI until i was disabled on the job and i cant remember the last time i cussed. what is it with you guys that you attack any post you dont agree with. after 26 yrs of federal law enforcement and a son at war and a daughter in the air force i believe i can hold any position i want, just not on this forum. bth the way what makes you think i have to answer your guestion? you are something on this forum while i cleary am not but i refuse to jump and answer you questions like your are something special because to me you are not.

[Dagger 21]

SteveChester...I just wanted to tell you..no I agree that not all iraqis will be glad to be rid of saddam,and they'll be even less happy to see the US Marines and Army.But I just think that the majority of the people are happy to have the iron boot of oppression removed from their necks.no matter who does it...

The individuals that blew themselves up are in the minority from what we're seeing on both allied TV and even the tv from the region.it seems the population is very happy to be liberated.

Say you're from Radford? small world...will have to get in touch and talk face to face.

and dia_0602 I won't even give that pile of crap the time to answer it..big waste of time.

[MadJeff 3]

Damn, now I remember why I always cringe whenever someone starts a political discussion here. This is a flight sim site people!

 

That being said, I want to weight in on a few things here before this gets out of hand. First off, I want to stress that EVERYONE here has the rights to their own opinions, and while I may not agree with them one way or another, that's what's great about America. You can have them anyway. But, you better be ready to back up your opinions with facts, and be prepared to have people call you out, or disagree with you. Especially within the sim community, who I would estimate has a higher percentage of people who have served in the military, than any other gaming group. And for the record, I myself did not serve. Almost did, wanted to be an Apache pilot more than anything at the time, but a girl had other plans for me...

 

This war has brought out a lot of anger and disagreements in everyone over the past month, and it's understandable. I have my own feelings on the war, and could even write them here, but what good does it do? Would my thoughts and feelings convince you to change your point of view? I doubt it, and personally I would be seriously disappointed if it did. You have to decide for yourselves what you think and feel on the subject, hopefully through investigating the facts, viewing the results, and using some brain cells to come to your own conclusions. Not by listening to one talking head on the news or some idiot actor/actress that spouts their beliefs like they carry any more weight then mine, or my 7-year old for that matter.

 

Now I want to speak to a few of you directly.

 

Dia_0602, while you may be surprised that I actually agree with a few of your points, it's more than apparent to me you are just trolling for a negative response. In fact, your style of writing is suspiciously familiar to another old favorite troublemaker we had here a month or two ago. You pulled a few statistics out of the air and then expect us to just come around to your happy way of thinking? You can't expect to make statements like this and not get called onto the carpet for them.

 

I do agree with you on several points. We did use Saddam when it was convenient for us, and we did have (more than) our share of the blame for creating the situation in Afganistan. I hope we as a country have learned from our mistakes and actually stick around and help Iraqis rebuild Iraq into something far far better than it was. But I am also a firm believer in one taking responsibility for his/her own actions, and to totally ignore Saddam's role in the 100's of thousands of innocent deaths is irresponsible and just flat out wrong. My feeling on the whole Iraqi war is that we should have killed him 12 years ago in Gulf War I, instead of looking for any excuse to do it now. Does anyone truly have any doubt that he did possess (or at least tried damn hard to get) WMD's? Or that he's slaughtered countless numbers of his own people to hang on to his power for this long? Or that the world will be a far better place without him, or others like him?

 

Fast_Eagle, we've had this discussion before. No personal attacks, and accusing someone of having their cranium inserted into their nether-regions is straying into that area I would call a personal attack. If we're going to have these political discussions here, let try to keep them civil, otherwise I may just have to discourage these types of discussions altogether. Which would be too bad, as I tend to feel we have a lot of intellegent adult people here that should be able to discuss viewpoints without namecalling. As far as your comment to stevechester, I didn't take his comment the same way you did. Maybe clarify before you start digging into him? He obviously has earned the right to his opinions, both in his service as well as his children's. But I do agree with your statement about people neglecting to mention Saddam's role in the deaths of innocents. People seem to be so left or right of center, and I myself do not understand it. Look at both sides of the equation people, there are two sides of a story, with the truth usually somewhere in the middle...

 

stevechester, you are correct about the language, I think we can have a discussion here without having to toss in some swearing to get the point across. You are, however, incorrect about not having a say in any discussion here, your POV is as valid as anyone else's in the forum, maybe more so then some. Not sure why you feel this way, and if I missed something that made you feel that way I apologize. The only "Party Line" I know of around here is everyone has the right to their opinion, and no personal attacks. Other than that I'm pretty easy...

 

That being said, I would argue that the majority of the Iraq people are happy that we are there, but there will always be some that are not. My understanding on the suicide bombers are that most of them are Palistinian/Syrian and are being scoffed at by most of the Iraqi people there. Their war and greviances seem to be driven more by the "I hate Americans no matter what" attitude, and are not indicitive of the majority of the true Iraqi civilians over there.

 

So, why did I write this little novel? Because I have concerns that these types of discussion do nothing but harm the community here at Biohaz, and that bothers me. The only other real problem we've had here in the past was also political in nature, and it caused me nothing but headaches. As distasteful a thought it is to me to curb ANY discussion that happens in the forums, I'm really starting to wonder if it's for the greater good of the community to ask that we no longer discuss politics here. Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with these types of discussions, but only if they stay in the realm of civility and intellectual thought, as well as presenting points of view. Of course, now I'm the one with my cranium inserted in my nether-regions...

[Dagger 21]

Steve it is good to agree to disagree...I really enjoy a good discussion and this one could last awhile...no cussing..no flames..a good discussion.Thanks.

[*Fast Eagle* 0]

Long night here guys, sorry. Down toning as we speak.

 

Sorry MJ

[navychief 1]

Duly noted, MJ

 

I admit that I tend to get "heated" when I read an opinion that is the opposite of how I view things.

 

Respectful restraint is needed more often than not, eh?

 

 

Taps, taps....

 

Chief W.

[snapple2993 0]

Thank god my cookies have been messed up, or I would have had something to say on this thread, then it would have snowballed into another melee. :D

[Guest Ranger332]

lets not forget it aint over there is still the possablity of gurrilla warfare. less we forget the Brits,and the Irish. the palestinians and Isral., and Us during the colonial wars. it is still to soon to tell.

 

 

HOPE FOR THE BEST EXPECT THE WORSE,AND DEAL WITH WHAT HAPPENS.