Steel Tiger preview

[TeTeT 0]

Good idea, although if US supplies are reduced too much, would they face an overrun too soon?

 

Yes, they'll be wiped out pretty fast. I did one test with a high supply and resupply level for the commies and the NVA was around Hue quickly.

[+Johan217 5]

Good idea, although if US supplies are reduced too much, would they face an overrun too soon?

If you reduce their supplies too much, then yes, possibly :) However, in the Vietnam setting we are dealing with a campaign where only 1 side is flyable (blue), and I find that it only takes a few succesful missions by the player to slow down the enemy ground offensives a lot. So I don't think blue forces getting overrun will be a big problem.

 

Something I did notice, however, is that with the red forces on the offensive you will see a lot of MiGs flying ground attack missions. So you'll probably need to reduce the starting number of aircraft for the red side, by reducing the StartAircraft for red squadrons or by making the AirUnits appear gradually later in the campaign. Defining their loadout to include only limited A2G weapons might help too.

 

That would probably have some effect and mimic RL as there would be a continuous stream of units over time. Would that require that additional units be added to the campaign file to maintain this supply of units?

I think it's best not to add too many ground units. Ground units can only be targeted during a ground offensive phase, at other times they are just sitting on the map. They also don't disappear unless they are totally destroyed, which doesn't happen that often (I think. If a ground offensive is unsuccesful, the unit will remain stationary until it has enough supplies/strength to attack again.

 

Is the only way to set the points for the front line by trial and error coordinates in the Movement file?

Unfortunately yes :(

But you can use a mission editor like Missioneur to find the map coordinates you need pretty accurately.

[+Johan217 5]

I'm currently running a test campaign based on the standard Linebacker I, using the ground units and strategic nodes from SteelTiger. I haven't managed to get the ground offensive going yet, but at least I'm not getting any ctd's.

 

Actually, according to the description of the Linebacker I campaign, North Vietnam launched a large offensive at that time. So using this campaign makes sense :) It's also quite short (25 missions) so easier to test and it should be easier to steer the ground offensives the way we want to. Will keep you updated...

[+Johan217 5]

This is what I had in mind for the front line:

 

And that is probably what we need.

You have to make absolutely sure that every ground unit is placed on the correct side of the frontline at the start of the campaign, otherwise the offensives won't work well.

 

Unfortunately the game has a mind of its own when it comes to moving the frontline after a ground offensive, so it's very possible that the bulge will be closed again at the beginning of the next mission, resulting in US airbases being overrun. I suppose that's why the developers made the frontline run straight in the stock campaigns.

[+Johan217 5]

After flying my Linebacker test campaign a bit more, I think I have found settings that work OK. 10 missions into the campaign and the ground war is still going around Hue. The battle could go either way.

 

The trick that did it was:

ForceWithInitiative=0 (i.e. both sides can take the initiative)

StartGroundOffensive=2 for the US (they will fly 2 air offensive missions before they start a ground offensive)

StartGroundOffensive=0 for NVietnam

No need to reduce the US supply levels, but the NVietnam supplies have been increased.

 

With this setup, NVietnam starts their offensive first, towards Hue and Da Nang. Depending on the player's success, once the first wave of NVietnamese offensives is stopped, the US will go on the offensive for one or two turns, then NVietnam counterattacks and so on. At least that is how it has played out for me so far.

 

For this test campaign I used the stock Linebacker I campaign and added the groundunits and strategic nodes from Scrapper's Tet Offensive '68 campaign. I first tried the SteelTiger settings, but these didn't work (I think because some red ground units start south of the frontline). It definitely needs some fine tuning, especially for the strategic nodes. You'll also see some Migs on ground attack during your first missions, so this might need some toning down. The cool thing is that if you combine this with the SteelTiger terrain, you'll also get the occasional static targets in South Vietnam.

 

Just drop the attached file in your LinebackerI folder. Only addon needed is the InfantryPack.

WOVCAMPL1_DATA.zip

[+Johan217 5]

I noticed that with this setup you'll see ground offensives in South Vietnam. If you link a strategic node from Hanoi directly to Saigon, the ground unit will go straight to Saigon and bypass everything in between. When this happens, the briefing map will show the ground unit's icon in Hanoi, but in the 3D world it's actually near Saigon. So this may be a way to simulate "VC uprisings" in different parts of the south. Combined with the static camps this should provide enough activity south of the frontline.

 

The only danger of course is that these offensives succeed, because then you'll get overrun :) I haven't tried it yet, but I think that if you make the attacking units smaller, and make sure that all strategic nodes are defended by an allied unit that is sufficiently stronger, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

I'm still looking for a way to eliminate NVietnamese flights appearing deep into South Vietnam. So far the only thing I can think of is to give them a very low number (2) of starting aircraft/pilots and make the squadrons appear gradually at different points in time. They'll still fly south, but only in small numbers...

 

Any ideas?

[+Johan217 5]

Also, I'm afraid that an accurate frontline, with a bulge through Laos and Cambodia is impossible. Because of the way the frontline movement is coded, the capture of a single node in those areas results in the evacuation of the inland US airbases. I suppose this is why it isn't included in the stock campaigns...

 

So in summary, I think the best solution is this:

1) (strong) NVA groundunits start at strategic nodes in NVietnam that are linked to places in the north (e.g. Hue)

2) (weaker) VC groundunits start at different strategic nodes in NVietnam that are linked directly to places all over South Vietnam

3) all target nodes in SVietnam must be defended by US groundunits

4) VC camps with static infantry etc. in places in SVietnam; a few of these camps in Laos and Cambodia could represent the Ho Chi Minh trail

5) make the frontline invisible as in the stock campaigns, it doesn't represent reality anyway.

 

Now we just need to get all this stuff together :)

[TeTeT 0]

5) make the frontline invisible as in the stock campaigns, it doesn't represent reality anyway.

 

I like that idea. After all the real conflict had not much of a frontline anyway.

 

On the problem of interdiction strikes by the DRV air force, I think only removing them completely will work. As the MiGs didn't play any role over South Vietnam it's probably not a big issue.

[Czech6 15]

Glad to see some thought (and hard work) going into this campaign modding. I guess the front line doesn't play as big a role in the campaign as I thought, in fact it seems to create some negative issues. However, I think Johan is narrowing in on the right concept.

 

On the issue of the MiG's appearing in the South. Could altering the combat range in the aircraft.ini limit their involvement south of the DMZ (especially if the closest NVAF bases are eliminated)? Or, change their role to only intercept, MiGCAP, etc. and eliminate Sweep.

[+Johan217 5]

On the issue of the MiG's appearing in the South. Could altering the combat range in the aircraft.ini limit their involvement south of the DMZ (especially if the closest NVAF bases are eliminated)? Or, change their role to only intercept, MiGCAP, etc. and eliminate Sweep.

Changing the role to only intercept/cap won't work. In fact the stock campaigns already have it set up this way.

The reason is that the campaign engine will task flights to protect the static VC camps south of the border. Changing the combat range could work, but it may also have adverse effects on other parts of the game (flight model). I don't know much about the workings of flight models, though.

 

I'm just a bit reluctant of removing the MiGs altogether. Even if it's not realistic, I think most players like a bit of opposition in the air.

[+whiteknight06604 934]

I like that idea. After all the real conflict had not much of a frontline anyway.

 

On the problem of interdiction strikes by the DRV air force, I think only removing them completely will work. As the MiGs didn't play any role over South Vietnam it's probably not a big issue.

 

I wonder if reducing the range drasticaly for the migs will keep them up north?

Edited February 15, 2008 by whiteknight06604

[Czech6 15]

Changing the role to only intercept/cap won't work. In fact the stock campaigns already have it set up this way.

The reason is that the campaign engine will task flights to protect the static VC camps south of the border. Changing the combat range could work, but it may also have adverse effects on other parts of the game (flight model). I don't know much about the workings of flight models, though.

 

I'm just a bit reluctant of removing the MiGs altogether. Even if it's not realistic, I think most players like a bit of opposition in the air.

 

Didn't think about the campaign settings for the MiG's. Now I see that they are set to CAP=100 and INTERCEPT=100.

 

So more thoughts on the issue. What about changing to CAP=0 so they wouldn't try to protect ground assets? Also, what about the idea of shortening the combat range in the aircraft file and eliminating the southmost NVAF airbases? And, I see that my aircraft.ini files have all the mission capabilities under PRIMARY and SECONDARY. Would that override the campaign file setting? Wouldn't think so, but I've found out that a loadout file overrides a weapondata file setting. So, maybe these need to be reduced to just intercept.

[+Johan217 5]

So more thoughts on the issue. What about changing to CAP=0 so they wouldn't try to protect ground assets?

They'll probably still fly intercepts aigainst US flights bound for targets south of the border, but it's worth a try :)

 

Also, what about the idea of shortening the combat range in the aircraft file and eliminating the southmost NVAF airbases?

I haven't had the time to try yet. Anyone?

 

And, I see that my aircraft.ini files have all the mission capabilities under PRIMARY and SECONDARY. Would that override the campaign file setting? Wouldn't think so, but I've found out that a loadout file overrides a weapondata file setting. So, maybe these need to be reduced to just intercept.

The mission capabilities in the aircraft ini file certainly have an influence. For example, if you delete the entry for FAC in all aircraft except the O-1, you'll make sure that only O-1s will appear as FAC aircraft. You could do the same for RECON (e.g. only for RF-4), etc...

So if you edit the MiGs and make them only INTERCEPT, they should not be able to fly any other missions.

[+Johan217 5]

After some more tweaking and testing, I think I found settings that work well. I did the strategic nodes from scratch, and now you'll see NVA offensives towards the DMZ and Hue in the North, and VC offensives against targets in the South. US will also attempt counteroffensives towards the DMZ. The number of MiGs has been reduced and they should only fly intercepts (though still south of the DMZ, I haven't touched their bases/range). US will strike against targets in NVietnam as well as VC bases in the South. How the campaign plays out depends a lot on the player's success, so if you do very poorly the NVA will capture Hue/Khe Sanh and it's game over.

 

Please try the attached file and say what you think.

 

It's a test campaign based on the stock Linebacker I campaign, so it's fairly short and doesn't require any extra addons, except for the InfantryPack and the SteelTiger targets.ini (for the VC bases in SVietnam)

 

I think you could copy the groundunits and strategic nodes from this campaign to the Rolling Thunder campaign, then just edit the units' start/end dates and things should play out OK.

LinebackerI_test.zip

[+Johan217 5]

With WOI we now have a few more parameters for campaign building :)

 

SurpriseAttack=TRUE ----> I think this reduces enemy air activity in the first mission(s)

AirOffensive[001].FocusArea=Cairo ----> gives more control over which targets are chosen

AllowRandomAceCreation=FALSE ----> self explanatory

UseFAC=FALSE ----> I think this prevents the use of random FAC aircraft (useful for heavily modded installations)

 

And for groundunits:

StartOffensiveDate=06/06/1967 ----> I assume this instructs groundunits not to go on the offensive before a specific date.

 

Another new thing in WOI is that the frontline data are now included in the campaign_data.ini rather than in the terrain's movement ini.

 

When the patch comes out we should be able to get these in WOV...

[+Johan217 5]

Some VERY useful info from TK here:

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5089

 

Well, supplies are kept track of at both force level, and at individual unit level. The SupplyRates at the the top only apply to change supply at force level, and doesn't directly affect supply at individual unit.

 

At force level, supply are modified at the end of each mission as follow:

 

NormalSupplyRate is added after each mission if neither side is in offensive. OffensiveSupplyRate is added (or subtracted, its usually negative) instead if the force is in offensive (either air or ground). DefensiveSupplyRate is used if the enemy force is in offensive instead.

 

SupplyForOffensive is the level of supply needed at force level for it to go into offensive mode. The offensive will generally continue until the attacking force runs out of supply (although it usually doesn't have to go all the way down to 0, there are several random triggers to stop earlier, I think Failure result by player has a chance to stop a friendly offensive, for example).

 

For example, WOI campaign 1, for IDF force, I have...

 

NormalSupplyRate=25

OffensiveSupplyRate=-10

DefensiveSupplyRate=-4

SupplyForOffensive=50

 

means it only takes maximum of 2 non-offensive missions for IDF to build enough supply to go on offensive (it goes up by 25 each mission, and it only needs 50, so even if its starting from 0, it'll be above that after 2 missions). Once it starts, IDF offensive can last 5+ missions (goes down 10 each offensive mission, and it started with minimum of 50). If the enemy is attacking instead, IDF only loses 4 supply each mission (so when the enemy stops his offensive, defender generally ends with more supply, and have a chance for offensive next round).

 

All these are also modified by player performance and campaign difficulty level.

 

If the offensive is not stopping, you probably need to adjust the OffensiveSupplyRate and DefensiveSupplyRate, and make them more negative. At the extreme, setting them to -100 should make it so the offensive will last only 1 mission, for example.

 

At the unit level, you don't have too much control at this point...

 

The individual unit supply is first adjusted up / down based on wether the unit performed mission or not, or changed based or not, or received replacements or not, etc. I think each unit generally expend roughly 10 supply points for each mission. Then, it immediately "receives" supply based on the current the force level supply point. So if the supply at force level is high, its adjusted up, and if its low, its adjusted down.

 

Again, all these are also modified by player performance.

 

Now, if you don't want any bombing mission at all, that might be slightly more involved, since campaign can and will generate bombing missions even if you're not on offensive. It picks random player mission during non-offensive phase based on Mission Chance, so you're right, you want to increase the chance for other types of missions besides the Strike.

 

But, that still might not prevent bombing mission from coming up entirely because at the end of the genrator, campaign engine has to generate a mission - and if it fails to genarete a valid one, I think Strike mission is one of the default mission types it falls back on.

 

TK

Thanks to the poster for asking the question

[TeTeT 0]

Have you tried the copying the terrain and campaign folder to WOI? I wonder if this will work and the armed recon missions and other benefits from WOI will work.

[+Johan217 5]

Have you tried the copying the terrain and campaign folder to WOI? I wonder if this will work and the armed recon missions and other benefits from WOI will work.

Haven't tried that. I thought I'd wait until an update for WOV is released. I've been busy with campaigns for WOI, so I haven't had much time to look into a Vietnam campaign. I managed to get the ground offensives somewhat balanced in the Rolling Thunder campaign, but I'm beginning to think the map is too limited to do it properly (i.e. historically). The capture of a single node usually results in a large shift of the front line. The way it works now, it is vital that the player flies a successful mission during an enemy ground offensive, so that offensives happen, but are always repulsed.

 

Anyway, in combination with the SteelTiger targets and CA_Stary's tree mod, I'm seeing plenty of strike missions against static troop concentrations (hidden in the jungle) near the DMZ, so it's quite enjoyable. I'll post the campaign.ini here tonight.

[+Johan217 5]

In the attachment you'll find the modified Rolling Thunder campaign.

As with the previous files, you'll need the Infantrypack and it is recommended you use the SteelTiger or any other terrain that adds static targets in South Vietnam.

 

Feel free to make alterations :)

WOVCAMPRT_DATA.zip

Edited March 11, 2008 by Johan217

[Czech6 15]

Johan,

 

Thanks for following through on these campaign ideas.

[+malibu43 142]

Wow. I'm really glad someone pointed this thread out to me. I've been messing with a 1980's vietnam campaign, and the ground war part of it has me pretty confused. This thread is clearing a lot of it up.

 

In the meantime, while I work on my own campaign, I definitely want to add the ground war to the stock WOV campaigns. I have the infantry pack already, so I just need to drop the campaign_data.ini files in. To get the static targets in South Vietnam, can I just rename the steel tiger_targets.ini to vietnamSEA_targets.ini and drop it in the terrain folder? Do I need to add the types.ini or movement.ini as well?

 

Thanks!

[TeTeT 0]

Wow. I'm really glad someone pointed this thread out to me. I've been messing with a 1980's vietnam campaign, and the ground war part of it has me pretty confused. This thread is clearing a lot of it up.

 

In the meantime, while I work on my own campaign, I definitely want to add the ground war to the stock WOV campaigns. I have the infantry pack already, so I just need to drop the campaign_data.ini files in. To get the static targets in South Vietnam, can I just rename the steel tiger_targets.ini to vietnamSEA_targets.ini and drop it in the terrain folder? Do I need to add the types.ini or movement.ini as well?

 

Thanks!

 

You'll need to update all of them to have the complete targets and routes. Keep in mind that the campaign is also WIP and has not been finished, so expect to change the targets and types and movements a bit.

[tn_prvteye 36]

I'm bumping this one to the top in case anyone missed it. I figured with the new patches, some people (like myself) would be interested. The patch does add Armed Recon missions to campaigns now, so our options in Vietnam have widened.

[TeTeT 0]

The files need to be reworked for the new patch, I believe. For example the WAREHOUSE target hack might no longer be needed. Is anyone aware of a new target type that can be used for the bases?

Edited October 6, 2008 by TeTeT

[+malibu43 142]

The files need to be reworked for the new patch, I believe. For example the WAREHOUSE target hack might no longer be needed. Is anyone aware of a new target type that can be used for the bases?

 

MISC works. It actually worked in the last patch too.

 

All you need to do to update the steel Tiger campaign is update your types.ini and campaign_data.ini files to utilize the Misc target type instead of warehouse, add the RulesOfEngagement=True and GroundOffensiveAllowed=True lines to the campaign_data.ini. Then you should be good to go.

 

If you increase the N_Vietnam supply starting supply qty's and supply rate, you should get lot of ground offensive with CAS and Armed Recon. That combined with your targets.ini and types.ini files makes for a WOV experience that's very different (and much more fun) than the out of the box campaigns.

 

Also, TeTeT, you should consider uploading the types.ini, targets.ini and campaign_data.ini files (once MISC has been added) as a separate download here in the downloads section. I consider it a must have for WOV.

Edited October 8, 2008 by malibu43