Moving forward ....

[+sinbad 27]

Thanks Peter. Things are shaping up for the EP.

[Barkhorn1x 9]

Thanks.

[+peter01 2]

No more planes this post, but an update on where I'm up to.

 

Had a very big week or two, and maybe need another week or so to finish, but these are the planes I'll be uploading to CA, all going well.

 

The F2B, Fe2C, N28, N27s, Dolphin, Snipe, Breuget on allied side.

 

The PfalzD3, PfalzD12, PfalzD8, SchuckertD3, JunkersD1 on German side.

 

Briefly, a good way to describe these FMs is that they are different.

 

Different to previously posted ones here - except PfalzD3 and Breuget, and N27s similar but refined performance wise, and a bit on the feel. Starting to get the hang of the new flight model, and reworked the others completely. They are very good I'd say, some excellent. I won't be updating them for a while after this, tho probably will tweak over time as I fly/play, then maybe in a few months (unless there are issues, or the patch changes things).

 

Different to TKs generally. Some are similar, but most are quite different.

 

Different to one another, very noticably. This is one of the good things about the new flight model, it wasn't possible previously to get similar performing or similar period planes all that different. I have had a lot of fun experimenting.

 

The AI parameters in all the FMs are redone, tuned very carefully to bring out the differences in the planes. An example - climb capability, if your in a better climbing plane you may outclimb your AI opponent (note, may, depends on how you fly), and if the reverse is true, you won't......sounds simple, but its not, took some FM tweaking/lots of testing to get consistent across all planes, and works well in terms of the dogfight experience, I think.

 

I will be posting an alternative Aircraftobject.ini too with this set. It seems to work well. Aces and Vets are very capable, very aggressive (ie, possessed :)). You will be hard pressed to beat an Ace in a comparable performing plane. The rest are quite capable, probably equal to TKs current crop of Aces/Vets, but done differently. Some are reasonably capable, reasonably aggressive, others are aggressive but not that capable, another lot are not that capable but good at evasion.

 

You don't need to use this new Aircraftobject.ini. Everything will be fine, but the AI won't be as good/tough, and the difference between the Aces/Vets and rest not as defined :).

 

Which brings me to TKs planes, and his AI. I'm redoing some of these planes for performance and all AI (most AI are not optimised by a long shot). The camel and dr1 fit very well performance wise with the ones I have done, rest don't, they are underdone IMO. I don't get that feeling of superiority in the SE5a, Spad13, or FokkerD7 I think you should (maybe thats just me!), nor with better AI can you survive in say an Albatros. I'll be posting the alternative versions of TKs here for you to try out first, maybe a couple of weeks down the track.

 

Finally, I'll include in the download for the Fms I'm doing some new LOD files supplied by the A-Team for some of the planes, for loadouts to work with the current game.

Edited November 19, 2007 by peter01

[Barkhorn1x 9]

Great work. Really looking forward to downloading.

[+peter01 2]

Thanks Barkhorn1x.

 

Anyway, a meeting cancelled, so thought just explain (not justify!) why i am changing some of TKs planes.

 

Its basically for consistency, as I see it anyway.

 

I initially changed the previous games version of TKs planes mainly to to fit performance wise with ones I did - see below why - but also the feel. Didn't like the patch 2 versions that much, too much yawing on roll, rolling on yaw etc.

 

Thats not the case on feel at least with the EP lot, they are very good, probably some as good as you can get, the Camel, Dr1 etc- and all are very very finely tuned. TK spent some time on these. But some are a bit the same, and thats one change I'm doing, but again, its mainly relative performance consistency. And as i do a lot of 1:1 dogfights developing/testing FMs, consistency is pretty obvious to me - it will be in misions, campaigns too, but not necessarily at first.

 

The Spad7 (180), Camel, Dr1 are consistent to me in terms of performance, ie, how they should be against one another, but the Se5a, Spad13, FokkerD7s, Albs tho consistent with each other, are underdone compared to the first bunch. The spad7 (150) is way too good, I have little trouble beating a FokkerD7 ace AI in this one.

 

So i couldn't just fit my FMs with TKs in terms of consistency, because firstly they are (to me) inconsistent in themselves. Secondly, as I work backwards to the early years, I know what I did previously not only worked for the very early planes like Moranes Eindeckers (as climb and pitch are reduced the AI have more and more trouble taking off, crashing into the ground etc), but was consistent across time, and I don't want to change all those other FMs (performance wise, climb is a headache) and redo the consistency thing all over again - it was just a mega-huge job the last time around.

 

So below is how I have tried to change this consistency thing in EP, and its easiest to describe in terms of climb changes, which are the major changes, but there are others. The dr1 I haven't changed at all - its just perfect:

 

The current spad7 (150) and spad (180) have really no performance differences, and feel the same. The first is an average mid 1916 plane, the second was a capable 1917-18 plane. Thats a big difference. So I have kept the spad7 (180) feel exactly the same, but improved climb and dive, its a budding Spad13 now, and made the spad7 (150) a bit lighter feeling - it feels a bit different, and its not the ZnB'er of its bigger brothers.

 

The camels are wonderful, but again the performance difference between the models is miniscule. Just adding a bigger engine doesn't do it justice, and doesn't change performance in this game FM much anyway -small changes in weight and especially engine do not reflect real differences to me (small increases had a large impact on these planes in real life), Maybe its because this flight model is basically one developed for modern planes. You could add 6 machine guns with no perceptible difference in performance, I have tried it.

 

Whatever, the Camel 150 version was considerably better than the 130, the clerget 130 was a perfect match for the Camel, and would be better than the 110, more so than currently in game, So, have left the feel for all the same, and the 130 is completely unchanged (except for autotrim), but reduced climb for the 110 and improved it for the 150. Hence difference between 110 and 150 is not insignificant. Result is that if you fly say the FokkerD7 against the Camel 110, you will win, using climb as well as everything else. Against the 150 you won't easily, it will nearly climb as well, so its TnB, and the camel is very good at that. Converse is true if you fly different camels against the FokkerD7. All this requires different changes to the planes: for player with changes of course in the FM, and on the other hand for the AI, in the FM as well as in the AI parameters.

 

Changed the Albs, Se5a, Spad13, FokkerD7s in feel and in performance. Just better performance, mainly climb, but other things too. The Se5a is definitely better in terms of feel, I think, the others, well, its a matter of preference. If you prefer Tks to mine thats fine, stick with them, but don't use the Aircraftobject.ini I'll be uploading, as you won't have a chance against the other AI in my FMs in any of TK planes, except the Camel and Dr1. Climb ability is just as critical as turn and change of direction, in the way I have done it.

 

As i have completed most already - can be very motivated, fortunately, the wife is very forgiving, I had promised I wouldn't do this again - i know what I have done works for me.

Edited November 20, 2007 by peter01

[Barkhorn1x 9]

Your approach sounds like a rational one to me.

 

Thanks again for all of you hard work here.

[+whiteknight06604 931]

Thank you for the FM work.I'm really looking forward to the final release.Thank the wife for us all for her patience and understanding.

[Nicholas Bell 117]

Peter-

 

Wonder what you think about the radical changes between the flight model data between the pre-expansion and the expansion versions?

 

After doing a side by side comparision of the data files, I am amazed at the differences. A lot of data types have been eliminated in the new version (eg Cm0,CLaMachTable, Cnp, Cnr). How often does code get eliminated <g>? Of course other data types have been added, especially regarding stalls.

 

And the data in the same catagories in many cases has radically changed, indicating major changes to the hard-coded flight model forumulas. I looked at the D-VII and the SE-5a in the old and the expansion and there seems to be little in common. Even simple stuff I can understand is a lot different:

 

These are from the SE-5

 

EXPANSION

StallSpeed=23.53

CruiseSpeed=47.80

ClimbSpeed=43.60

CornerSpeed=55.21

 

OLD

StallSpeed=17.08

CruiseSpeed=32.88

ClimbSpeed=24.98

CornerSpeed=40.35

 

It's no wonder add-on aircraft don't fly right anymore. I wonder how they fly at all without having the necessary data - or having too much in other cases.

 

Don't know how you make heads or tails of it all, but appreciate your work!

[+peter01 2]

Thank the wife for us all for her patience and understanding.

 

hehe, thanks, she will appreciate that.

 

 

Wonder what you think about the radical changes between the flight model data between the pre-expansion and the expansion versions?

 

Well, from a point of view of doing FMs, its just different, takes some getting used to.

 

More generally, the new Flight Model is excellent - its not just how FMs are done (thats improved tho too), the flying environment/phsyical dynamics have changed. Its very hard for me now even to play the pre-expansion game, it seems very "bland" to me in comparison. I think TK has made some really major changes, and it works well.

 

The other biggie, is the AI, which is now excellent. Its hard really to describe really how much its improved to non-FM'ers, given the issues that were there before. Although in the pre-expansion game, you could make the AI capable, tough, well behaved (mine, :)), I did spend 50-90% of my time making the FM work for the AI. Not any more. The AI looks after itself (to a large degree, couple of fiddily bits still). Its not just how the AI handles stalls, its just about everything.

 

And in the game TKs new AI are very good. Haven't really had a chance to see how they go bombing etc, and there are one or two niggly things in formation flying.

 

But gee, in dogfights, its the best around of all ww1 or ww2 sims IMO, and by a large margin , when tweaked that is - capable, tough and interesting. Its just that TK doesn't optimise them that way!! But he's done an excellent job on this aspect, which is a part of the flight model - maybe one of the reasons it changed.

Edited November 21, 2007 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

Will be cleaning up files and uploading to CombatAce in a few hours. Writing this at work, saving time.

 

Pack includes 14 FMs - Nieup.28 from EmID, FokkerD8 from Laton, all the rest from the A-Team. Thanks to these guys for the models, and allowing me to do these FMs.

 

Haven't finished the Nieup.27s overhaul as previously planned, but have included a couple of extra FMs. With TKs planes, this should cover all the fighters that we have currently for the 1918 period, and many bombers.

 

FMs are for the Snipe, Nieup.28, Dolphin, Breuget Br.14, Fe2c, Fe2b, F2B, PfalzD3, PfalzD8, PfalzD12, PfalzDr1, SchukertD3, FokkerD8, JunkersD1.

 

The Fe2c is the same FM as the Fe2b, but defined as a bomber from mid 1917 to end of war, while the Fe2b is a multi role plane available end 1915 to mid 1917. You need to copy the "Fe2b" directory and rename it "Fe2c", then place the data FM and ini files in the zip file in the "Fe2c" directory, as per instructions below.

 

The zip contains the files in individual plane directories, so after installing the plane packages (available here at CombarAce), you can just drop the "Aircraft" folder within the zip file into your FE "Objects" directory, and then say yes to overwrite existing files when prompted. It will place all the files in the correct locations. If you do not have all the planes, the directories will be created but without the 3D model and other files, you will not be able to fly the plane - but it will not cause a problem. Alternatively, you can drop each file individually into the correct directory from the zip file.

 

New Loadout files provided by the Ateam are included in directories for the Sopwith Dolphin, Bristol Fighter F2B, Pfalz D.III, Sopwith Snipe, Breguet Br.14. Required for the Expansion pack.

 

Also included is an alternative Aircraftobject.ini. Only the skill factors have changed. It should be placed in your "Objects" folder. If you have modded this file, just copy the skill level stuff (Novice thru to Ace), to your existing one. If you don't like it, its not necessary to use, and you can just delete afterwards too after trying out if you like - the game will revert to the the stock Aircraftobject.ini file contained with the game. This Aircraftobject.ini makes the AI tougher, more capable, more aggressive. It also differentiates quite a bit between Aces (very tough), Vets (nearly as tough), and the rest. The rest are still quite capable, probably equal to TKs current stock Ace/Vet AI.

 

Okay, now all the caveats, qualifications, warnings.....no, I'm not lawyer, maybe missed my true calling :)

 

Written ONLY for Hard FM, no idea what they are like in Normal or Easy. Certainly stalls have been used to limit climb, and to get relative balance between different performing planes - a consistency thing. So IMO Normal or Easy, for these planes at least, is probably more appropriately called Arcade.

 

They are written for the Expansion Pack. They will not work properly at all in previous versions of the game.

 

Takeoff is far trickier in the new game (and the game is better for it too IMO), and is tricky for many of these FMs. Its best to start with 0% throttle, let them settle down for a second or two, then takeoff. All planes takeoff in Hard FM, but a couple are quite twitchy, and loaded bombers need some runway length. You can just takeoff in the Fe2cs with a bomb load - its a nice experience, I think.

 

I still consider these beta for a number of reasons:

 

TK may change things (especially AI) in patch.

 

I haven't had time to test as thoroughly as I'd like - haven't even had time to play missions.

 

There is a lot of tweaking that can be done in the new flight model, it can go on forever, and I wanted to get something out in a reasonabe time.

 

The new flight model, the physical environment, the AI have changed considerably since the last version, and I'm still learning. There are many different things that can be done, as well as new issues/compromises! One major compromise relates to the AI - have taken the safe route with these, but will probably change this as I spend more time testing/playing.

 

And finally, they are as good as I can do at the moment, but its early days with the new flight model.

 

Anyway, let me know if you have any queries or issues.

Edited November 27, 2007 by peter01

[Barkhorn1x 9]

Wow!! What a job you've done here!!

 

Thanks.

[+Tailspin 3]

Can anything be done about the AI (ie. the rest of your flight) not being able fly with you on auto pilot without constantly diving and climbing trying to follow you? They act like they don't know how to climb at a steady speed. Can't recall if this is just stock A/C behaving this way, been too busy to put much time in flying.

[+peter01 2]

Can anything be done about the AI (ie. the rest of your flight) not being able fly with you on auto pilot without constantly diving and climbing trying to follow you? They act like they don't know how to climb at a steady speed. Can't recall if this is just stock A/C behaving this way, been too busy to put much time in flying.

 

Maybe, which aircraft? After takeoff? I haven't had the chance to fly the planes much with wingmen.

 

Also, I assume you are steady on autopilot, ie, no porpoising?

[Barkhorn1x 9]

Bumped!!!

 

Peter has posted the files.

[+whiteknight06604 931]

Bumped!!!

 

Peter has posted the files.

 

Great news.

[+Tailspin 3]

Maybe, which aircraft? After takeoff? I haven't had the chance to fly the planes much with wingmen.

 

Also, I assume you are steady on autopilot, ie, no porpoising?

 

All aircraft I think. Some more than others. Its not porpoising. Its climbing and diving. Just did a flight with the N28. After taking off player plane does a steady slow climb @ 103mph. AI wingies usually wind up following a couple of hundred feet lower. I looks to me like the AI is climbing too steeply then diving to compensate for the loss of speed then climbing again, etc.

 

Since I first posted I found this at the Thirdwire forum. I seem to have the same problem with more that just the Dr.1.

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4721

 

TK will probably fix it with a patch. Still, an interim solution would be nice.

[+peter01 2]

All aircraft I think. Some more than others. Its not porpoising. Its climbing and diving. Just did a flight with the N28. After taking off player plane does a steady slow climb @ 103mph. AI wingies usually wind up following a couple of hundred feet lower. I looks to me like the AI is climbing too steeply then diving to compensate for the loss of speed then climbing again, etc.

 

Since I first posted I found this at the Thirdwire forum. I seem to have the same problem with more that just the Dr.1.

 

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4721

 

TK will probably fix it with a patch. Still, an interim solution would be nice.

 

The porpoising is related. Anyway, long explanation follows.

 

Its mainly due to the AI parameters.

 

Thing is, the ai parameters are either combat or formation flying, and the most important are general, ie, they cover both. That latter is the problem. And a huge complexity in understanding and optimising ai parameters and effects.

 

I had hoped that TK would seperate the formation and combat ai parameters in the Expansion Pack, it wouldn't be hard really. And had thought then TK had fixed it differently, as I didn't initially see it - unfortunately he has just "masked" it using new values for the old ai parameters. And, additionally you can "mask" it in the FM itself as well as in the AI parameters - see Se5a comment below, its one of the reasons I think many are underdone performance wise. But not the Camel or Dr1 :).

 

So for example, the Dr1 is probably exhibiting the behavior described by Tex for two main reasons - it has more pitch authority defined in AI parameters than the rest (and its got good pitch anyway), and its climb speed is defined as high - result is what you see, it uses dive to maintain its high climb speed (there are a couple of other parameters too, its very complex, many tradeoffs). These two particular parameters are "general" ai parameters affecting both formation flying and dogfighting.

 

Given the current flight model and ai parameters, the only way I think TK can "fix" the issue is by compromising the Dr1s dogfighting ability. Thats probably what he'll do, but wait and see - he may do more work on the ai parameters themselves, but I doubt it. He's not that interested in the dogfighting ability so much, other than the Dr1 and the Camel are a good match. More generally its one of the reasons the Se5a has only a 15 degree min deflection on pitch in the FM raised by someone before - to reduce that behavior of climbing & diving in formation, but it reduces its effectiveness as a fighter for player, maybe ai too.

 

The N28 is different - its my FM I presume. Its because I optimised the dogfighting "general" ai parameters. I have reduced this in the new lot, but nevertheless, the general issue remains. Need to trial and test over time, and each plane is different.

 

It may be best not to worry about the ai formation flying, other than crashing etc. More importantly to me is dogfighting. I fly in the cockpit and don't watch the ai unless testing, other than my opponent, and that relates to their dogfighting ability, not formation flying ability. And frankly TK should fix all that formation flying stuff anyhow, its good its been raised - its what I eluded to before about "niggly" things still remain. Whether its fixed, masked or tuned specifically for Dr1 (eg, reducing climb speed would be most effective IMO, but there are other AI parameters), is another matter :).

Edited November 28, 2007 by peter01

[+Crusader 2,057]

great work

 

noticed that the FokkerD8 has 2 pilots, one is called by the fuselage section, the other by the nose section... I've deleted one, its ugly when one looks left and the other right at the same time

 

Schuckert DIII is "overpiloted" too ... perhaps others too ...

Edited November 29, 2007 by Crusader

[+christian59 8]

thank you

[+whiteknight06604 931]

excellent as usual.Thanks

[+peter01 2]

great work

 

noticed that the FokkerD8 has 2 pilots, one is called by the fuselage section, the other by the nose section... I've deleted one, its ugly when one looks left and the other right at the same time

 

Schuckert DIII is "overpiloted" too ... perhaps others too ...

 

Ahh, thanks. :blush2:

 

Saw this, thought it was a bug with the game- must remember to stop blaming TK for everything!

 

Its probably in a few files.

 

Also, Fe2b data file has an error, near top of file, the line

 

ationName=RAF

 

should be replaced with the two following lines

 

[MissionData]

NationName=RAF

Edited November 30, 2007 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

Well have been busy and done a few more FMs, redone some of TKs, fixed some things in previous ones.

 

But I'm running out of time...Xmas and the leadup is a busy time for me, probably everybody, and very soon I'm just going to have to leave doing FMs for a while. Travelling in January too.

 

Its probably a good thing, need more time to fine tune planes at leisure and tweak the AI, and a bit too stressful doing them in rush.

 

But thought it would be good to upload what I have done, as is, so everybody can fly more planes in the Expansion Pack. And actually the last ones done are probably the best, all are full conversions.

 

But.... they certainly are not final versions!! And importantly.......

 

Firstly, have modded some of TKs, for better or worse, for performance consistency and for AI. Have also done extra versions using his models of some of these planes since TK started all this , eg, Albatros D3 160 Hp, D1, D2. Needed for earlier 1917 period - JFM has done some superb Alb D1 and D2 skins for the Dva model, so used that at this stage for these two.

 

Secondly, have not tested all these FMs completely - could be issues (there always are anyway I guess), and things like real fine tuning, getting stalls/spins spot on take quiet a bit of extra work - and it will have to wait. I will not be fixing any thing for a while.

 

Thirdly, the AI - they are very much optimised for dogfighting (including TKs). Its a tradeoff with formation flying for some of these - so if you worry about porpoising in "Level Flight" mode, AI porpoising a bit, ai going up and down for altitude in formation especially after takeoff or keeping up ith you, well, don't download these - they are not for you. Its not that bad, some are just fine, but some are not. All seem good in combat.

 

Fourthly, consistency is good, but still needs to be tweaked a bit.

 

Finally, they are for Hard FM. Haven't even played in Normal, and because stalls are used to restrict climb and turn, and because of all the other differences between Normal and Hard FM modes (TK does this differently than most games), its impossible to get plane consistency in different modes - and for that reason I'm not interested in Normal. Sorry.

 

So, with some of above, and fact that TKs patch will probably come out soon and may change things, a bit in two minds about what to do.

 

What do you think?

Edited December 2, 2007 by peter01

[Firecage 1]

Well my 2 cents is put out the Downloads you have before you take off for a well deserved break from this FM and relax a bit. TK will probably patch soon and thats not a concern in my mind cuz it sounds like you have enuff going to give us all some fun and challenge in the game till its patched. At that point im guessing you have a handle of the FM now so after patch it should be doable to have you re do any details.

 

Its just too hard to try and anticipate what TK might change... or how long it might be till it happens. Im sure TK has holiday issues just like the rest of us.

 

Also the planes your doing alot to are the addon planes and TK shouldnt affect them as much as his own perhaps.

 

Like I said .... hard to see the future so If you have invested the work I say put em out and let get to playing them 8)

[Barkhorn1x 9]

Yep, I say put 'em out there too!

Edited December 2, 2007 by Barkhorn1x

[+Tailspin 3]

"Thirdly, the AI - they are very much optimised for dogfighting (including TKs). Its a tradeoff with formation flying for some of these - so if you worry about porpoising in "Level Flight" mode, AI porpoising a bit, ai going up and down for altitude in formation especially after takeoff or keeping up ith you, well, don't download these - they are not for you. Its not that bad, some are just fine, but some are not. All seem good in combat."

 

Well, this is bad news. I think its worse than "not that bad".

 

 

I wouldn't have posted about a "minor" problem as there are many "minor" problems with the sim. The problem is with Auto Pilot too. As you can see, there is no "formation flying" after you have flown on auto pilot for awhile. This simply doesn't work very well when you enjoy single missions and campaigns. Sorry, but if it has to be this way I don't see the point in having squadrons and you might as well eliminate the campaign mode entirely. If this were just a "dogfighting game" I wouldn't wasting my time modding target areas like bridges and such. Too bad.