Fuel issue

[+Brainless 1]

Can someone please explain to me why some AI aircraft seem to run out of fuel prematurely?

 

This seems to happen mostly with helicopters and I have noticed some airplanes in the WWII series appear to suffer from this phenomenon.

 

You know the ones, like the German fighters which seem to run out of juice just as they are about to engage the enemy.

 

It seems so unfair as they are ridiculously easy to shoot down when their props have stopped!!!

 

I expect this has been debated before but I can't find the topic on the subject.

[+Gocad 26]

Low amount of fuel + high fuel consumption + wrong missionradius value = running out of fuel early

 

I would assume that the missionradius is main reason why some prop driven planes tend to run out of fuel.

 

For example, the Bf 109K4 (derrived from the 109G10, which I have seen running out of fuel numerous times) by Wrench has the following mission radius values:

 

NormalMissionRadius=724

MaxMissionRadius=1125

(Btw, is that miles or kilometers; the knowledge base doesn't specify this)

 

Anyway, according to these values the Bf 109K4 is supposedly capable to operate within this radius of 724 km/miles and this means that it must have a TOTAL range of over 1400 km/miles.

 

But judging by the values Wrench used for his G6 mod and what is stated about the Range (which should not be confused with MissionRadius) of the 109G6 on the wikipedia page I would say that this missionradius is way to high for the 109K4 or any other 109G10 variant out there.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Gocad

[+Brainless 1]

Low amount of fuel + high fuel consumption + wrong missionradius value = running out of fuel early

 

I would assume that the missionradius is main reason why some prop driven planes tend to run out of fuel.

 

For example, the Bf 109K4 (derrived from the 109G10, which I have seen running out of fuel numerous times) by Wrench has the following mission radius values:

 

NormalMissionRadius=724

MaxMissionRadius=1125

(Btw, is that miles or kilometers; the knowledge base doesn't specify this)

 

Anyway, according to these values the Bf 109K4 is supposedly capable to operate within this radius of 724 km/miles and this means that it must have a TOTAL range of over 1400 km/miles.

 

But judging by the values Wrench used for his G6 mod and what is stated about the Range (which should not be confused with MissionRadius) of the 109G6 on the wikipedia page I would say that this missionradius is way to high for the 109K4 or any other 109G10 variant out there.

 

Well thanks Gocad for your informative reply. I guessed the fuel issue it had something to do with values set in the game parameters but had no idea how this was set.

 

I suppose my next question is can these values be changed to stop the a/c from running out of fuel prematurely and if so what would these be?

 

If I have understood your reply correctly you seem to be saying that the values are too high which I interpret as meaning the airplanes should be running out of fuel earlier rather than later which would presumably mean a worsening of the fuel depletion!

 

 

I know the Bf109 had only a short range over England I think this was approx. ten to twenty minutes before they had to turn for home. I don't know if this was intentionally modelled into the aircraft by the designer but if so then the aircraft should be heading back to base before they run out of fuel rather than drifting down to the ground!

 

Perhaps the answer is a lower fuel consumption but can this value be adjusted?

 

Thank you for replying to my post.

[tank03 1]

Well thanks Gocad for your informative reply. I guessed the fuel issue it had something to do with values set in the game parameters but had no idea how this was set.

 

I suppose my next question is can these values be changed to stop the a/c from running out of fuel prematurely and if so what would these be?

 

If I have understood your reply correctly you seem to be saying that the values are too high which I interpret as meaning the airplanes should be running out of fuel earlier rather than later which would presumably mean a worsening of the fuel depletion!

I know the Bf109 had only a short range over England I think this was approx. ten to twenty minutes before they had to turn for home. I don't know if this was intentionally modelled into the aircraft by the designer but if so then the aircraft should be heading back to base before they run out of fuel rather than drifting down to the ground!

 

Perhaps the answer is a lower fuel consumption but can this value be adjusted?

 

Thank you for replying to my post.

 

I don't know how the game regulates the fuel consumption. I would assume that it would be somewhere in the data.ini related to the engine entries?

 

Another option is to edit the data.ini fuel tank info to increase the max fuel load.

 

[FuselageFuelCell]

SystemType=FUEL_TANK

FuelTankID=1

MaxFuelAmount=287.6 <<<< increase this??

SelfHealing=TRUE

FireSuppression=TRUE

MinExtentPosition=-0.5,-1.0,0.0

MaxExtentPosition=0.5,-3.3,0.5

 

I don't know if that would have an effect on a/c weight, and therefore performance but it may be worth trying out.

Edited November 15, 2007 by tank03

[Guest capun]

AFIK the fuel consumption (and not the fuel quantity) is controlled in the Engine section by two variables

 

BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumptio) for props and TSFC (Thrust Specific Fuel Consumption) for jets.

 

For more explanation about BSFC check this wikipedia article

 

Wikipedia

 

Basically the lower the BSFC the more efficient the engine is, thus lower fuel usage

[+Gocad 26]

Well thanks Gocad for your informative reply. I guessed the fuel issue it had something to do with values set in the game parameters but had no idea how this was set.

 

I suppose my next question is can these values be changed to stop the a/c from running out of fuel prematurely and if so what would these be?

 

Sure, increasing the amount of fuel would be an option, but my personal preference would be reducing the missionradius. That should be also the least difficult modification.

 

Besides, I do not think that there is anything wrong with the fuel amount and comsumption of the 109G10.

[+Dave 2,322]

Here is someone saying it just the opposite.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=23167

[+Brainless 1]

Here is someone saying it just the opposite.

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=23167

 

I think that member was referring to jets. I have never noticed a problem with jets running out of fuel. It only seems to be some helicopters and some prop airplanes.

[+Brainless 1]

Sure, increasing the amount of fuel would be an option, but my personal preference would be reducing the missionradius. That should be also the least difficult modification.

 

Besides, I do not think that there is anything wrong with the fuel amount and comsumption of the 109G10.

 

 

Hmm.. if this is right and I have no reason to doubt you, then there seems to me to be a need to get the AIs to return to base sooner except that I would suppose it may then deny the player the opportunity of engaging in combat.

 

You guys must have an answer 'cause it's really weird playing my dedicated instal of WWII engaging german fighters with their props stopped and heading for the English countryside with no fuel .

[Wrench 9,801]

I just used whatever was in Wolf's original data ini; all the mathematical calculatory stuff is beyond me!!

Adding/adjusting harpoints is easy...figuring flight paramaters...wheee!!!

 

as the the distance, it's in KM...all the measurements in the game are metric (well, in particular, in releating to aircraft size, HP, fuel in liters, etc

[+Gocad 26]

Thanks for solving this one, Wrench.

 

You guys must have an answer 'cause it's really weird playing my dedicated instal of WWII engaging german fighters with their props stopped and heading for the English countryside with no fuel .

 

Setting the MissionRadius for the 109G10 models and related variants down to about 300 should put an end to this.

 

What I find interesting is that Wolf's 109F model has what I would call a realistic missionradius value:

 

109F4:

NormalMissionRadius=250

MaxMissionRadius=284

 

vs.

 

109G10:

NormalMissionRadius=724

MaxMissionRadius=1125

 

Also, both models have the same amount of fuel, but different consumption values...

109F4 has a BSFC of 0.005, whereas the 109G10 has a BSFC of 0.01.

 

So if I understood Capun correctly this means that the G10 consumes its fuel at a higher rate than the F4, so its no surprise that the G10 goes down without fuel all time, especially when it is sent on a mission that would exceed its actual combat radius.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Gocad

[+Brainless 1]

Thanks for solving this one, Wrench.

Setting the MissionRadius for the 109G10 models and related variants down to about 300 should put an end to this.

 

What I find interesting is that Wolf's 109F model has what I would call a realistic missionradius value:

 

109F4:

NormalMissionRadius=250

MaxMissionRadius=284

 

vs.

 

109G10:

NormalMissionRadius=724

MaxMissionRadius=1125

 

Also, both models have the same amount of fuel, but different consumption values...

109F4 has a BSFC of 0.005, whereas the 109G10 has a BSFC of 0.01.

 

So if I understood Capun correctly this means that the G10 consumes its fuel at a higher rate than the F4, so its no surprise that the G10 goes down without fuel all time, especially when it is sent on a mission that would exceed its actual combat radius.

 

OOhh...EEE I do hope I haven't caused a rumpus here. I didn't mean to start anything untoward. I was just asking a Brainless question!!

 

Anyway thanks guys. I'm gonna try altering the parameters as suggested and I'll get back to you. Can't do it tonight duty calls!!! (yes that's household duty).

 

Don't start fighting amongst yourselves now whilst I've gone. Play nice.

[+Brainless 1]

Thanks for solving this one, Wrench.

Setting the MissionRadius for the 109G10 models and related variants down to about 300 should put an end to this.

 

What I find interesting is that Wolf's 109F model has what I would call a realistic missionradius value:

 

109F4:

NormalMissionRadius=250

MaxMissionRadius=284

 

vs.

 

109G10:

NormalMissionRadius=724

MaxMissionRadius=1125

 

Also, both models have the same amount of fuel, but different consumption values...

109F4 has a BSFC of 0.005, whereas the 109G10 has a BSFC of 0.01.

 

So if I understood Capun correctly this means that the G10 consumes its fuel at a higher rate than the F4, so its no surprise that the G10 goes down without fuel all time, especially when it is sent on a mission that would exceed its actual combat radius.

 

1st FUEL TEST using amended Bf-109E-3 data as proposed by Gocad

 

Firstly let me say that IMHO the flight model of this aircraft is superb. It seems to me that the flight characteristics are in all respects accurate as far as I know. The airspeed seems correct and of course the exterior model is really beautiful.

 

I amended three elements. The BSFC, the NormalMissionRadius and the Max Mission Radius.

 

These are:-

 

BSFC = 0.005

NormalMissionRadius = 250

Max Mission Radius = 284

 

I set up an AI reconnaissance mission for the Bf109E-3 to fly from Coquelles in France using the fantastic Battle of Britain terrain, over the South coast of England with approx. 4 mins. flying time between waypoints over the South of England. I would approximate that there was about 12 mins total flight time over England from going in over the coast to flying back over the coast. The cruise speed was 226kts and the total round trip distance 145.84nm.

 

This worked fine from take off to landing.

 

I tried extending the time and range to 240nm but the AI crashes at this distance on the return leg going back over the English coast having run out of fuel.

 

I have not had the free time today I was expecting (usual household crap) so I haven’t tested how this works in the Campaign or in other missions but it does seem to me to be a big improvement over the original settings.

 

It may be that a lower fuel consumption rate could be set to extent the flight range further but I don’t know if this would be more or less accurate.

 

It’s over to you guys again. I’ll let you know more when I have tried this in the campaign and game engine mission mode.

[+Brainless 1]

I just used whatever was in Wolf's original data ini; all the mathematical calculatory stuff is beyond me!!

Adding/adjusting harpoints is easy...figuring flight paramaters...wheee!!!

 

as the the distance, it's in KM...all the measurements in the game are metric (well, in particular, in releating to aircraft size, HP, fuel in liters, etc

 

 

I have placed the update on this here to stay in the thread and so it's easily to see as it's a long blab!

 

I know Kevin won't mind. You don't do you? Anyway he probably won't see it as he's away soon. If you do see this have a great holiday.

 

Going anywhere nice?

 

Fuel consumption (AI only) testing – Update

 

This is rather more complicated than I at first imagined. This is to do with the many variables in the game engine.

 

To start with the various aircraft have different fuel loadings (fuel cells), some have the ability to load drop tanks whilst others haven’t. This would presumably extend the range. The mission ranges are also variable and I’m not quite sure how relevant this is or how this operates in the game engine.

 

Added to this the AI aircraft can spend a long time attacking ground objects and engaging air targets when they might otherwise sensibly return to base… when damaged for instance. Invariably all this consumes fuel leaving them with insufficient to make it back home. Of course this may be a feature of the game and I guess some may think this all well and good.

 

In some cases I believe the game also auto generates enemy flights mid air and in this case it could be argued these have an abundance of fuel disproportionate to other aircraft who have taken off. This is yet another variable although in the BOB install most of the flights seem to start on the runway which is a big help!

 

 

In my view any AI aircraft should at least have the ability to take off, fly the mission route, engage the enemy and have enough fuel to return to base. If the AI spends too much time in fighting thereby depleting his/her fuel then that is his/her fault.

 

So how does one test this?

 

Well I have used a reconnaissance flight auto generated in the single mission screen. I used the longest ones in the BOB terrain that goes from an airfield in France over the English coast, flies over southern England and returns to base. These are usually two man flights. When at the mission objective I send the wingman home and follow him back to see when he runs out of fuel. (this is really boring!)

 

I then adjust the BSFC setting and if necessary the mission range to suit and try the flight again.

 

In my list of aircraft for the BOB install the aircraft with the least fuel is the BF109E-3 and its variants. It doesn’t have any drop tanks and has an (amended) Normal MissionRadius = 250 and MaxMission Radius = 284. This seems about right to me for its primary tasks viz: recon, escort and dog fighting over England as Gocad suggested although I know these primary tasks are not as set in the data profile which lists CAS, Armed Recon, Strike etc. etc..

 

I tried the suggested amended BSFC setting @ 0.005 for the BF109-3E but this is still not enough fuel for the longer flights. I tried again with 0.0025 but the wingman ran out of fuel just as he was about to land and crashed. I have tried again with BSFC0.002 and this worked fine but don’t forget we did not engage the enemy, the test was just a straight forward there and back flight. I have discounted the fuel used climbing as I reckoned the extra used to attain altitude would be gained descending with the throttle part closed.

 

Therefore I have reduced my Bf109E-3 BSFC value down to 0.0015 to allow some ‘fighting’ time.

 

It must be stressed these settings are only trials and are NOT relevant as far as I know for any of the jet airplanes. It only applies to prop aircraft and helicopters although I haven’t yet tried the new settings with these. All tests are in the BOB terrain and may not be appropriate in other terrain although I don’t see any reason why it would not work elsewhere.

 

Other aircraft which could in my view benefit from revised BSFC settings are the Hurricane models and early Spitfire but I suggest checking first if the model to be modified has only one or two small fuel cells, no reserve tanks and no drop tanks.

 

I don’t think there are any hard and fast rules for these revised settings. It’s more a question of educated guesswork and feel for the right adjustments and then trial and error testing.I know the game engine at least for SF1 was never intended for ‘prop’ aircraft and I have only the highest regard and admiration for those modders who have done an absolutely superb job of creating almost perfect flying prop models for fans of this genre (yes I’m one) and for the great terrains to fly them in but I guess anything can be improved.

 

I think we need more people testing this with more prop type aircraft who are confident altering the settings (always back up your original file first….. but hey fellas you don’t need me to tell you that!) and posting results.

 

In my view this is well worth the trouble as it improves the playability of the prop games no end!!

 

Sorry for the long blab guys but this is all a bit complicated for a computer airhead like me to explain!!

[Guest Tazkiller]

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p...asc&start=0

 

Subject Covered

[+Brainless 1]

http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p...asc&start=0

 

Subject Covered

 

Thanks. I looked at that but it doesn't seem to me to resolve the simple matter that in some cases with a few aircraft and helicopters, the prop AIs run out of fuel before you've even had time to engage them!

 

This is not a problem with the jets or at least I haven't noticed it. It is a simple matter to adjust the fuel and mission settings for the affected A/C to resolve the issue with props as Gocad had stated but I think it needs to be done carefully to maintain as much realism as possible.

 

I have made these changes and IMHO it has made a real difference to the gameplay. No-one wants to be shooting at airplanes they've just engaged with their props stopped heading for the ground! That certainly isn't realistic. Gocad's advise was in my view an excellent solution to one of the problems with the AI behaviour.

 

I agree that the AI behaviour in general is not 'realistic' but this is probably true of all flight sims. I cannot think of one flight simulator I've had and I have had most if not all the ones from 2000 onwards that is totally real.

 

All these sims have to appeal to a wide range of players all with different needs and views and I guess the developers have to accommodate everyone. What seems real to one may not seem real to another and some just don't want real!

 

In my view one of the plusses of the Thirdwire series is its adaptability and variety of aircraft that can be flown with it and in it along with the range of different terrains that the guys on this site are constantly updating, modifying and improving. That is what makes it more appealing than other sims. No its not perfect but for many it fits the bill!!

[Guest Tazkiller]

Brainless,

 

If you are looking for the best in a prop sim for the World War II era. Janes WWII Fighters is still the gold standard. Just as here some very talented people have changed it into a sim that just won't go away. You can still come across copies of it on E-bay and this web-site is the best to support the simulation.

 

http://www.ww2fighters.org/

[+Brainless 1]

Brainless,

 

If you are looking for the best in a prop sim for the World War II era. Janes WWII Fighters is still the gold standard. Just as here some very talented people have changed it into a sim that just won't go away. You can still come across copies of it on E-bay and this web-site is the best to support the simulation.

 

http://www.ww2fighters.org/

 

Thanks Taz for the info. I don't remember that one. I may have had it a while back. How old is it and does it run on Windows XP?

 

Have you tried BOBII. IMHO it is one of the best current WWII sims. You get the feel of the wind over the wings if you have a Force Feedback stick. I my view it is the best dedicated prop sim. Its is constantly being upgraded and updated by the dedicated Shockwave team and is truly worth a go. It is only BOB though and doesn't have the wide scoop that Thirdwire sims have. That's why I play their sims more tham any other!

 

BOBII isn't perfect and the AI behaviour, whilst regularly being tweaked, needs IMHO still quite a bit of improvement.

 

You might find it a bit better than the AIs in Thirdwire sims. The BOBII fighters/bombers tend to go home if they've done their job or get damaged which is more realistic.