WIP #2 - The FMs

[+peter01 2]

Theres a bit I want to say on the FMs, so it'll be a few posts on this thread, but to start, whats included and whats not.

 

If your reading this, and don't have the planes, you could start downloading all the add-on planes available. In fact to get the most out of this, you do need all the planes. This takes some time.

 

And the upload will be ready soon, its a promise.

 

There's about 80 FMs. Some people like Camels and Dr1s and Fokkers D7s, and I do too, but I like Albs and Nieuports more, so there are additional versions of these that require copying say the Nieuport17 folder and renaming etc - it'll be in the Readme.

 

It includes a couple of planes i haven't done before, Laton's Bristol M1c and Bortdafarm's Martinsyde S1 (available only at his site, most of his others are here at Combat Ace).

 

It doesn't include a few FMs, a couple I intend doing at some time in the future, specifically Bortdafarm's Farmans and Albatros D1 and D2s.

 

It doesn't include multi-engined plane FMs such as the Gotha, Staaken etc. However most of these work as AI, and I do recommend you download them, but do download Monty CZ's Caproni Ca3. The FM is fine as is and the plane adds some heavy support to missions etc :).

[+peter01 2]

LOL, a bit of time (gee, its a relief to have finished it all), so a bit more about installation.

 

I strongly recommend you do an seperate and clean install. Know many of you have made all sorts of mods, but trust me, this will be enough to start and you can then decide what to add or mod.

 

Its meant to be simple and quick and complete, as long as you have all the add-on planes ready.

 

1) Install a clean and seperate version of the original FE (no need to apply patches), call it something like "WW1 Oct EP" etc.

 

2) Apply the Oct 2007 Expansion Pack only to this new install.

 

3) Move your joystick settings from a previous EP Unpatched version of the game from the CONTROLS folder to your new folder so that you don't need to customise. Don't do this from a patched EP version.

 

4) Add the add-on plane package folders to the AIRCRAFT folder. You do not need to do a full installation of weaponsdata, sounds etc, its all in my download. The biggest problems here are the size of a copied AIRCRAFT folder if you have a lot of skins. If space is tight you may want to delete skins you don't use, they are very large.

 

5) Copy extra planes folders and rename - see above re extra nieuports etc, its in the Readme file.

 

5) Install the download into your new FE game directory, confirming ok to overwrite when prompted.

 

To make it easier I have standardised all the FMs in terms of various things. Examples include using EP pilots exclusively (repositioned some in cockpits using the newer and bigger EP pilots as well), stallsounds, engine sounds - stock engine sound is used as rotaryengine sound, in the download again, if you have and want to use the A-teams this is one file you could add to the install, but only after the download is installed.

 

All the planes have strengthened stabilisers, they were too easy to shoot off, and some have increased general/specific structural strength too, can't remember exactly but early Nieuports come to mind.

 

Thanks to p10ppy for his Le Prieur Rockets, and p10ppy and Tailspin and Christian59 for attachment postions, all the Spad7s, Nieuports, Pup, Camels etc have working Le Prieurs, with all the different things needed to make them work in the game. Many planes now have external bombs too. All the loadouts should work (new weaponsdata files in the download too).

 

The stock AI only planes DFWC5, Re8, Salmson, Spad7 150, Spad 7 180 are flyable, with cockpit files included. You do not ned to do anything, except, well, fly. if you have done them better than me, highly likely, well you can add them after install easily enough.

 

Theres quite a few other things, but maybe in another post.

Edited June 29, 2008 by peter01

[don246 65]

Wow Peter cant wait to try this out man you work hard, million thanks your work is much appreciated.

[+peter01 2]

Ok, last post on the FMs. Its a long one......

 

Naturally these are for hard FM, hard everything. There are a couple of things you can do to make it harder or less hard, mainly relating to the AI...in the next thread.

 

Its for the Oct 2007 EP, not patched. The patch reduced roll resistance (in the code, not the FMs) hence improved roll considerably, also meaning pitch is better (they are indirectly related). Result is that a Oct EP FM will roll far quicker, turn better when used in the patched EP game, but whats worse is that it will be very flakey in pitch, and for people like me with FFB sticks, cause major issues (they are sensitive FMs). Its not easy modding the FMs done for the Unpatched EP to work in Patched one - actually requires changes that make the plane quite diffferent in feel and performance, and roll is just quicker, whatever you do.

 

Is that a problem for using them for the patched game? No, as they will work, but as AI will be better, and won't mix with stock planes performance wise or as AI. But more importantly, apart from maybe causing issues, being flakey (ie, not so nice to fly), they aren't as they were designed......See below, its a poor attempt to explain how they are designed to work, the effort put in to make them work to that design....

 

But firstly, if you downloaded the previous bunch of FMs, nearly all these are different, in minor and/or major ways. Certainly better. I'd say 90% are probably as good as they can be, the other 10% vary but generally good enough, mainly planes that wouldn't be as popular to fly. I might improve them later tho unlikely, this is probably the last attempt. So if you are inclined to mod, your reasonably safe to do so - and I haven't said that before.

 

Just a couple of examples of changes, but its across the board:

 

Alb D3/5s, Nieuport 28, Snipe modded partly for feel, mainly for vertical performance.

 

All Nieuports changed, some considerably. The Nieuports 24, 27 are minor, but all are different, and at times I think some of these are my favourites.

 

Dolphin, Bristol F2b completely redone. Loads better.

 

Most mid-late 1916 planes are vastly improved, or redone.

 

There not perfect, a couple wont takeoff (but fixed N11 and Fe2b in this regard), no stress modelling, but pretty good.

 

Finally..... performance consistency/improvement. This is just something I want to say, simply because it took some work, and I'm proud of it. Partly explaining the design.

 

I guess it is taken for a fact that one plane is a better performer than another, but when you have 70 to 80 planes getting these performance differences and improvements is not easy, and I seriously doubt its been done on this scale or as carefully before, even RB3D WFSP. Certainly not when you take the ai side into account. You have to test each plane extensively against various other planes, mod the FM, retest, and so on. 80 FMs tested each against maybe 3 or 4 opponents then tweaking, retesting arrrgg...and to start you have base FMs that work as designed as AI to test them against.

 

Example: the Morane L takes over 10mins to get to 3000ft for me (its hard climbing, it was hard to do as a FM as well!), Camel, 2 min 30secs to same height. These numbers are pretty close to generally acknowledged real figures. Not implying performance is correct, its not for many planes for various reasons, and in terms of roll and turn who really knows for certain, just saying that over time planes improve, and climb can be one of those improvements.

 

Another example: fly the Morane N against say a Fokker D3 Ace AI, and you generally won't win (if you use the very hard skill settings - see next thread on AI). Fly an Dh2, and its a very even dogfight that often goes for 5-10 mins. Fly a Pup, and you win easily....and so it goes for all planes against one another, over time....generally those planes you expect to be better, are better. Thats the player side.

 

Of course thats only half the story - there's the AI. So in above example if you are flying a Fokker D3 and you fight against a Morane N Ace AI, you should win easily. A Dh2, should be even, a Pup, and you should get done. This doesn't just happen on its own because the Pup is better for the player than the Dh2, which in turn is better than the Morane N. It takes some real tuning/testing of the AI to maximise the positive and different performance characteristics of each plane to get right, because the AI fly differently to the player. EG, you do the AI on a good ZnB'er completely differently to a good TnB'er, an early plane differently to a later plane etc. More on this in the next thread on AI.

 

Is all this interesting or important? Well, it is to me. Maybe I'm weird, but thats how I thought it should be many years ago, but never really found it. Maybe Il2 is close as its been.

 

And its only possible in FE because you have that really micro level control of the FM (not in RB3D or OFF), because TK has given us very good AI, and because you can tailor each plane's AI individually (not possible in OFF or RB3D either). That last one is unique and is a huge factor. And its a difference between TKs AI and mine - TK takes a one size fits all approach for the AI, while mine are carefully tailored and tuned for each plane. I probably have more time to do this than TK, certainly more inclination.

 

Don't ask how long just the performance/ai tuning side of the FMs took for 80 planes, I really don't want to think about it lol, but pleased?... yep....

 

Does that explain why they won't work as designed in patched EP, apart from obvious feel and performance, and why if you mix them with stock FMs (as you would in patched FE) it doesn't work the same way?

Edited June 29, 2008 by peter01

[+sinbad 27]

Thank you Peter01, your really rate the #1!

 

I continue to be amazed at the amount of work you do for this sim, and I have only a notion of the amount of time it takes with screens of FM data tinkering and testing to get even one solid FM. Without FMs that feel authentic all the rest might as well be desktop images.

 

Kick back and have a cool one!

 

sinbad

[MigBuster 2,884]

Wow - that is above and beyond Peter01 - I hope all the FE players are grateful - cos they should be!!

 

[deep 5]

Thanks Peter01! You have truly made a major contribution here.

 

I think FE is the dark horse of flight sims that is just leaving the gate!

[Bandy 3]

Thank you Peter for your time and effort, it is sincerely appreciated! It must have been a roller coaster at times for you tackling this monumental work. Did you ever go to sleep at night and dream about the flight models?

 

A sort of philosophical question though on the way the AI performs.

I've just a general impression (and at first it sounds like a no-brainer, but...) I sense that the AI will tend to fly against you the way you fly yourself. In many drawn out campaign dogfights where only me and an AI opponent are left (so no outside influence), if I make the combat into a turning fight, then the AI obliges. If I change the mix and go vertical, then the AI follows suit, and then back to a turning fight, etc. Perhaps the AI can't help but do this since its "prime objective" is to get guns on you, and better if on your six (???).

 

So how do you overcome a trend like this in tweaking the FM's to MAKE the AI do the things it SHOULD do in a b'n'z a/c?

 

Your past efforts have resulted in a much more unpredictable, and thus fascinating AI, which absolutely makes for a different gaming experience almost every time I fly.

 

Best regards, BB.

Edited June 29, 2008 by B Bandy RFC

[Southside Bucky 1]

Great work Peter...I think you've just rekindled everyone's interest in FE!

 

TK should Employ you, and base this game around your FM's, IMHO.

 

More power to you mate!

[+Tailspin 3]

I can't wait to try these out.

[+peter01 2]

Thanks guys.

 

Just a (another!) quick one on the new FMs.

 

Had a few weeks break from FE, and then one day out of the blue I just started thinking about some problems I had with the FMs, and I came up with some ideas. Very lateral thinking. About 6 or 8 ideas that came very quickly. A few days later tried them, they all worked very well, some better than others, some more suitable to some FMs then others, but overall definetly an improvement. I was very pleased.

 

Basically it started with the thought that tweaking and tweaking no longer improved the FMs...they were as tweaked as they could be. And tweaking was very time consuming.... had to look at it differently.

 

The ideas were lateral in the sense that I understood why I had problems with some that I just couldn't get right before that never occurred to me (eg same prob for F2B and Dolphin), started doing a couple of things lots differently (not done by TK) that resulted in more motion for rotary powered planes (their engines vibrated they shouldn't be too stable), that also made different planes slightly different to one another (always a challenge) and actually nicer to fly to me as well. And I remembered, for some odd reason, something TK posted months ago that made me retry something, and it worked very well for a couple of FMs (that TK doesn't use in FE, for some reason).

 

Just shows you what a break can do. Anyway, in about a week or two I had a greatly improved set of FMs. Now, don't want to get expectations up, probably nobody will notice, but many/most are better then before.

 

 

Thank you Peter for your time and effort, it is sincerely appreciated! It must have been a roller coaster at times for you tackling this monumental work. Did you ever go to sleep at night and dream about the flight models?

 

A sort of philosophical question though on the way the AI performs.

I've just a general impression (and at first it sounds like a no-brainer, but...) I sense that the AI will tend to fly against you the way you fly yourself. In many drawn out campaign dogfights where only me and an AI opponent are left (so no outside influence), if I make the combat into a turning fight, then the AI obliges. If I change the mix and go vertical, then the AI follows suit, and then back to a turning fight, etc. Perhaps the AI can't help but do this since its "prime objective" is to get guns on you, and better if on your six (???).

 

So how do you overcome a trend like this in tweaking the FM's to MAKE the AI do the things it SHOULD do in a b'n'z a/c?

 

Your past efforts have resulted in a much more unpredictable, and thus fascinating AI, which absolutely makes for a different gaming experience almost every time I fly.

 

Best regards, BB.

 

Man, thats a difficult question. Its probably better I post on this in the AI thread I'm starting, its the next one :), so fire away there, but in general sense, there are many levers - skill levels, aidata, flightcontrol, and in the FM body itself, that on their own, or combined, change their behavior. Its pretty amazing what you can do, but you know, the ai is hard coded, so the ai will be the ai to a certain extent....

 

I have been improving the AI, and its a big improvement. In the end I had to redo the ai, and water them down, they were just too good - see next thread. I saw that they were better in the April patch, but no ai parameters had changed, so then experimented and found why. Its hard coded in the April patch, but by varying a couple of parameters you get the same result in the Oct version. This experimentation also uncovered a couple of other gems, and you know, the AI are now at least a level or two better then before. An AI ace flying the same plane as you (for test purposes) is about as good as you, ie, a "true" ai ace, maybe not a MvR etc but....

 

The changes don't improve the ai's ability to turn or roll etc, this is easy to do, but it starts to get unrealistic and this is a problem for some I'd guess, but its simply because the FMs are a bit supercharged for the player as well - nothing can be done about this, thats the new Flight Model. I like it. No, these improvements relate to flying smarter, using throttle better, using climb better, especially reacting quicker, extending then coming back to attack (Spad 13 and Se5a do this very well), reducing dive, AND in some cases teamwork in a squadron (lol, a first, I reckon)!

Edited June 30, 2008 by peter01

[deep 5]

Dr. de Bono would be proud.

[+peter01 2]

just re-read your post and question Bandy, and didn't answer it...of course :)

 

but its a good question, deserves a more direct response, I'll give you an example

 

take the spad 13. take a default set of parametrs (skill, flight control, aidata, fm stuff). it will try, as you corectly point out, to get on your tail. it will be a turn fighter, and only an average one at that.

 

it shouldn't be a turn fighter, and it should be capable

 

so, what to do....

 

you reduce pitch ability...it can't turn as well, so less likely to try to outturn you

 

you increase its ability to speed up, increase its preferred dogfighting speeds, you decrease its ability to slow down. all this means it will zoom around fast, and stay fast

 

you improve its ability to climb. you encourage it to use climb

 

you make it react quicker, partly so it is harder to get a bead on, partly so it recovers from situations quicker, decides what to do quicker, defensive or aggressive

 

you improve only its roll and rudder ability for a gun attack. You increase its aggressiveness.

 

the overall result is that when given a chance, usually after its outclimbed you or extended away, it will attack very aggressively and quickly from the front side or on your tail, and if you dodge it will zoom past and then extend or climb again maybe dive and try again.

 

sounds complex, but its not, just a matter of getting all the settings right, and there are a couple of other things too

 

an interesting point about the spad13 as ai (true also of Se5a), versus dr1 (best dogfighter), is that a player in the dr1 has some difficulty in dealing with these planes as ai (firecage won't like that :)). the dr1 can say beat the better ai dogfighter like camel etc, but has a comparatively harder time with the ZnB'ers, mainly because its slower. spad13 etc can zoom in and out at will. but an alb d5 that will usually get easily beaten by a good camel ai, can put up just nearly as good show against the spad13 as against the camel. not sure, but this sounds okay, it was unexpected though

 

now its not perfect, its not how i fly the spad 13. I fly in the vertical only until attacking, you know up and down, up and down etc. can't get the ai to do that...

Edited June 30, 2008 by peter01

[+Baltika 84]

Fascinating stuff.

 

Thanks for all your hard work, peter01

[Bandy 3]

Yes, thanks Peter. This is really an engrossing part of the game.

[+peter01 2]

BTW, you mentioned that the AI fly like the player. I don't think thats the case, and in fact, I think the AI largely determine how you fly.

 

And example is the "old under and up" trick, works well on many AI (worked all the time on pre-EP game), doesn't work at all for many now.

 

...but maybe because I only fly against modded AI, stock may be different, you could be right.

Edited July 4, 2008 by peter01

[Bandy 3]

You know, you could be right. That observation on AI "flying like you" was probably based from long term memory....

 

Real life has put a curb on my free time so far this year, so I haven't really explored all that post EP & patch have to offer. I mostly get shot down now with your flight models :blush2: but what excitement!!!