USS Cabot question

[+Typhoid 231]

Would JATO have been safe to use on those carriers?

 

with wooden decks?

 

"the smoking lamp is now - uh - burnt to a crisp!"

 

Edited July 18, 2008 by Typhoid

[+Hinchinbrooke 36]

I wonder if you could mod an A-4 so that at launch the nose is raised to obtain a better angle of attack and thus better launch capability.............. at least visually for the game. Much like the Buccaneer or Scimitar when used with the RN.

[MAKO69 186]

It already has good angle of attack and it was lighter than both those planes

I wonder if you could mod an A-4 so that at launch the nose is raised to obtain a better angle of attack and thus better launch capability.............. at least visually for the game. Much like the Buccaneer or Scimitar when used with the RN.

[MAKO69 186]

In reality the front was wood the rear already had plating for the AV-8S, steal plate could be added to the front as not to have direct flame impingment on the wood. And fire crews always on stand by could hose down the blast area before and after.

. In the game it could work it could have a "new steal deck " w/the new arresting gear that was installed.

with wooden decks?

 

"the smoking limp is now - uh - burnt to a crisp!"

 

Edited July 18, 2008 by MAKO69

[JediMaster 451]

Some A-4s and F-4s had that extended nose gear for better AOA off the deck, but not all.

 

I was thinking specifically of the wooden decks with JATO as well. An occasional use might not be a problem, but any regular use I think would be tempting fate. A concrete runway is a different matter.

[MAKO69 186]

All A-4 had long nose wheels all USN F-4 Phantoms front nose gear was extended during carrier launch the UK Navy F-4K Phantom had double extention of the USN Phantoms

Some A-4s and F-4s had that extended nose gear for better AOA off the deck, but not all.

 

Also got a reply on the woody Dedalo deck.I was thinking specifically of the wooden decks with JATO as well. An occasional use might not be a problem, but any regular use I think would be tempting fate. A concrete runway is a different matter.

Edited July 18, 2008 by MAKO69

[+Hinchinbrooke 36]

It already has good angle of attack and it was lighter than both those planes

 

What I meant was, given the restrictions of Dedalo's wooden deck (in terms of construction and size) and the lack of catapults, perhaps any Spanish A-4 could be 'enhanced' in order to compensate.

 

......... assuming that catapults are added............... although that puts into question the strength of the deck and the steam plant required.

 

Anyway, carry on.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Hinchinbrooke

[+SkippyBing 8]

I'm not 100% sure but I'd guess the Skyhawk's nose leg put it at the optimum angle of attack to launch, any more and you'd probably be dangerously near the stall as you climbed away at the end of the cat. I think the RN Phantoms were to some extent taking the p**s, although they also had a low speed thrust advantage to push it out of danger.

[MAKO69 186]

Phantoms had much more thrust compared to the skyhawks, the old adedge if you give a barn door enough thrust it will fly.

I'm not 100% sure but I'd guess the Skyhawk's nose leg put it at the optimum angle of attack to launch, any more and you'd probably be dangerously near the stall as you climbed away at the end of the cat. I think the RN Phantoms were to some extent taking the p**s, although they also had a low speed thrust advantage to push it out of danger.

[+SkippyBing 8]

Agreed, but the UK 'Tooms had more low speed thrust than the US ones hence the higher AoA on launch for the RN ones. As I understand it a Spey Phantom would beat a standard one up to about Mach 1 at which point the advantage reversed

[MAKO69 186]

The spey did have more RAW thrust than a J-79 equiped phantom. Here's a question did the spey smoke like the J-79?

Agreed, but the UK 'Tooms had more low speed thrust than the US ones hence the higher AoA on launch for the RN ones. As I understand it a Spey Phantom would beat a standard one up to about Mach 1 at which point the advantage reversed

[+SkippyBing 8]

I've got some DVDs with UK Phantom carrier ops on, I'll have a look when I get back. From memory I'd say they weren't as smokey as the J-79, I know they were turbofans but I'm not sure why this would make a difference as such.

[MigBuster 2,871]

Dont think smoke was an issue - the Buccaneer used non reheat RR Speys - (the A-7D/E used licensed built Speys)

 

Over the J-79 its claimed that the RR Spey gave better take off thrust, faster rate of climb, better low level acceleration, slower approach speed (more bleed air for boundary control)

but on the negative side - reheat/AB light up times increased, max speed fell to Mach 1.9 and high altitude performance was worse than the J79 Phantoms.

[+SkippyBing 8]

The reduced max speed wasn't due to the output of the engine more the fact that it required a greater mass flow of air which required bigger intakes, and it had a greater cross section, all of which messed up the aerodynamics enough to reduce the max speed. I'm fairly sure the Spey gave better fuel consumption being a turbofan.

[MigBuster 2,871]

"Fitting the Spey meant a completely redesigned engine bay, larger intakes to handle the greater mass flow of air and wider, shorter jetpipes"

 

Think the author has just directly related the performance issues to the fitting of the RR Spey 202/203 in general.

[+SkippyBing 8]

Yeah, I think originally it was thought the performance would be better due to the higher thrust compared to the J-79, however the increased cross section more than made up for that!

[JediMaster 451]

Well, generally speaking a turbofan is better under Mach 1 and a turbojet is better over Mach 1.

[Stratos 3,177]

Wikipedia says:

 

Carried 8 AV-8S and 8 SH-3D up to 33 fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters

 

Sure 33 airafts are WW2, but reducing the SH3d to maybe 2 will not be possible to carry 8 A4 and 4 or 6 Corsair 2??

[+Typhoid 231]

Wikipedia says:

 

Carried 8 AV-8S and 8 SH-3D up to 33 fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters

 

Sure 33 airafts are WW2, but reducing the SH3d to maybe 2 will not be possible to carry 8 A4 and 4 or 6 Corsair 2??

 

I think the key point is that she carried VTOL aircraft, whether Harrier or Helo's.

 

It would be real, real tough to make it CTOL jet capable. As a frame of reference, the Argentine carrier in the Falklands and that class of ships all (barely) operated A-4's and were not quite twice as large. A pretty signficant difference. Our own Essex class ship at roughly 3 times as large could operate A-4's, A-3's and F-8's (and the earlier jets). We (USN) never operated jets on anything smaller.

 

It might be theoretically possible to operate an A-4 class of jet on such a small ship, but you might have a tough time finding aircrew both technically savy enough to fly the planes and at the same time dumb enough to try to launch/recover on such a small ship.

 

[Stratos 3,177]

There is enough space?? I made some trials and is possible. If Sf, WOE and tons of addons are what if, I will take this one as a what if

[+Typhoid 231]

There is enough space?? I made some trials and is possible. If Sf, WOE and tons of addons are what if, I will take this one as a what if

 

as a "what if", sure. I'm just saying that realistically it was about half as big as the smallest carrier that ever attempted to operate jet aircraft using catapult and arresting gear.

 

So for the smallest, slowest attack jet that you can find - like the A-4 but not limited to that, use whatever, pardon the expresssion, floats your boat.

 

 

more realistically, use a Harrier, Forger, prop planes and helos.

[MAKO69 186]

Its a game, its a what if, I think you should do it. It would be fun run with it

There is enough space?? I made some trials and is possible. If Sf, WOE and tons of addons are what if, I will take this one as a what if

[+Hinchinbrooke 36]

Let's hope that "what if" Spain has lots of "what if" money to compensate for the high men and materiel attrition rates!

 

Good luck!

[+Typhoid 231]

Let's hope that "what if" Spain has lots of "what if" money to compensate for the high men and materiel attrition rates!

 

Good luck!

 

select "unlimited" on the supply!!

 

[MAKO69 186]

I dont think Stratos should be discouraged from doing this mod and campaign.