Yugoslav 4.5 gen Fighter

[macelena]

See what could have been of yugoslavia without war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NoviAvion1.jpg

[Emp_Palpatine]

Yeah, I started a topic about that bird a few months ago.

[Silverbolt]

Two Threads

 

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...mp;#entry181739

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=26639

[+starfighter2]

That was only tech. demonstartor. MiG-29 was obtained instead as "excuse" to fill a gap untill new domestic fighters are ready..... bah.... too expencive "dream". On the other hand, MiG-29 in export (A/B variant or 9-12) was and still is a big dissapointment. Nothing below 9-13 MiG29 is not good. Radar doesn't work (usualy in combat e.g.), rwr malfunction - often, some important sensors are usualy out of order - one word - crap plane. A bit off topic - but from mine side of view - not really. Who needs "acrobatic airshow plane" when it is blind and deaf in combat.

Edited November 15, 2008 by starfighter2

[Viggen]

Starfighter: Have the Serbian MiGs been upgraded yet?

[+starfighter2]

Yes, 2 of them. Outside they look like 9-12, inside changed wireing and avionics - now simmilar to 9-13 standard (just without "hump"), capable of fireing R-77.

[Carlos_Tex]

Hey starfighter2 a word of advice we must not bad mouth russian technology otherwise we´ll start to have russian guys bad mouthing us here at combat ace!!!

[+starfighter2]

This is not only mine personal opinion, I spoked with several pilots about this subject. BTW if somebody love Russia - that will be me. BTW2 - first export version of MiG-29 was and still is crap plane.

Edited November 16, 2008 by starfighter2

[+Brain32]

That's true, one can also look at German comments. I still love the way it looks lol

[+starfighter2]

Yea it looks great - it will be very nice addon from TMF when finished. Ingame - I'm sure it will be splendid.

[Silverbolt]

This is not only mine personal opinion, I spoked with several pilots about this subject. BTW if somebody love Russia - that will be me. BTW2 - first export version of MiG-29 was and still is crap plane.

 

Totally True, two wars proved it plus an Israeli F-15 x MiG-29 report that i posted here...

i'm not sure what soviets wanted to give to their friends....a chance to fight or give a defeat passport .

with this kind of allie you don't need enemy....

 

but, is it just a mikoyan problem or a Russian issue to sell technologie?

 

I remember too those MiG-23 using Fishbed's radar...wtf? a plane that supposed to be better than F-4 gaind disavantage against the same plane.

i seems just the Russian SAMs were good for export.

anyway, if you have money like India or China you may got everything the best.

[+starfighter2]

Yep - that was MiG-23MS Export variant - very limited in combat - both - old radar and old Atolls, weaker engine - newer MiG-21's (MF and BiS) was better then MS Flogger.

MiG-29A (9-12) have extra ordinary dogfight capability, problem was(is) bad avionics, and very bad tactics in combat use. They have (on paper) BVR - but in combat they failed to fire R-27R, due radar malfunction or simply fact that AIM-7M is 2 times better in RL and AIM-120 have near twice further range. In both wars which you mention, they can't stand a chance. 9-13 MiG-29's or better - have R-77 which generaly move MiG's edge and make them formidable opponent, also newer 29's have much better offensive/deffensive electronics.

 

Technology issue with Russian export which you mention also, it's matter of earlyer Soviet politics, not new one.

 

EDIT> Crusader says and I agree >

"only potentional danger from early/ export -29's was if they were used as point defense fighters armed wall to wall with R-73 ... thats something the western fighters couldnt match in mid 80's"

Edited November 16, 2008 by starfighter2

[FastCargo]

Well, if you want to get cynical about it, the logic is simple:

 

"Don't sell your allies your good stuff...you might have to fight them someday."

 

FC

[Hubertus]

This aircraft looks like a french Rafale, but with one engine:D

[Emp_Palpatine]

Yep - that was MiG-23MS Export variant - very limited in combat - both - old radar and old Atolls, weaker engine - newer MiG-21's (MF and BiS) was better then MS Flogger.

MiG-29A (9-12) have extra ordinary dogfight capability, problem was(is) bad avionics, and very bad tactics in combat use. They have (on paper) BVR - but in combat they failed to fire R-27R, due radar malfunction or simply fact that AIM-7M is 2 times better in RL and AIM-120 have near twice further range. In both wars which you mention, they can't stand a chance. 9-13 MiG-29's or better - have R-77 which generaly move MiG's edge and make them formidable opponent, also newer 29's have much better offensive/deffensive electronics.

 

Technology issue with Russian export which you mention also, it's matter of earlyer Soviet politics, not new one.

 

EDIT> Crusader says and I agree >

"only potentional danger from early/ export -29's was if they were used as point defense fighters armed wall to wall with R-73 ... thats something the western fighters couldnt match in mid 80's"

 

 

Even in a symetric war (ie Ethiopia vs Erythrea) the MiG29 fared bad. Ethipioan Sukkhois did achieve air superiority without much efforts. So technology difference may not be the sole factor.

[+starfighter2]

Air combat between Ethiopian and Eritrean air forces, 1999 - Su-27 vs Mig-29>

Besides taking out four Eritrean MiG-29s (plus one written off due to damage recieved from a AAM) Ethiopian Su-27s also carried out many strike missions against the Eritrean ground forces. While MiG-23s carried most of the bombing missions i think the Su-27 was used in a more penetrative role using Air-to-ground missiles etc.

 

Interesting to note that all MiG-29s were shot down in close-quarters turning dogfights. All kills were by means of the R-73. R-27s fired by both MiGs and Su-s on various occassions failed to find their mark.

 

One uneventful incident occured when two Su-27s were intercepted over Eritrean airspace by four MiGs. The lead Su-27 was targeted by the MiGs which fired three R-27s head-on. The Lead evaded the missiles and then proceeded to engage all four MiGs by firing four R-27s in quick succession. The missiles missed and the MiGs left in a hurry.

 

Ethiopia purchased 5 second-hand Su-27 Flanker-As from Russian. One was lost in a demonstration in Ethiopia. Eritrea purchased about 8 second hand MiG-29 Fulcrum-As from the Ukraine. AS it is five MiG were lost due to Su-27s.

 

Single MiG-29s were shot down on separate days in late February. Then two were shot down in one engagement with Su-27s in March. One MiG-29 was also supposedly written-off on landing after being damaged by a Su-27.

 

As far as ive been told ALL kills were made with R-73 Archers. Some head-to-head R-27 shootouts did occur but with no visible results (the written-off MiG couldve been damaged in one of these).

 

Claims and denials from the powers-that-be make the task of finding the truth... complicated.

 

As far as I know there are no significant differences between early and new or domestic and export R-27 variants. (Excluding the active radar homing R-27AE which was cancelled in favour of R-77, and the R-27EM which is only used with the Su-33, AFAIK.)

 

As for why the R-27s might have missed, it's not terribly suprising IMHO. The older Sparrow with Israelis has had a success rate of only 35% or so against MiG-21/23s flown by poorly trained pilots who usually did't even know they're being fired upon...