macelena 1,070 Posted November 15, 2008 See what could have been of yugoslavia without war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NoviAvion1.jpg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emp_Palpatine 501 Posted November 15, 2008 Yeah, I started a topic about that bird a few months ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverbolt 104 Posted November 15, 2008 Two Threads http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...mp;#entry181739 http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=26639 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+starfighter2 117 Posted November 15, 2008 (edited) That was only tech. demonstartor. MiG-29 was obtained instead as "excuse" to fill a gap untill new domestic fighters are ready..... bah.... too expencive "dream". On the other hand, MiG-29 in export (A/B variant or 9-12) was and still is a big dissapointment. Nothing below 9-13 MiG29 is not good. Radar doesn't work (usualy in combat e.g.), rwr malfunction - often, some important sensors are usualy out of order - one word - crap plane. A bit off topic - but from mine side of view - not really. Who needs "acrobatic airshow plane" when it is blind and deaf in combat. Edited November 15, 2008 by starfighter2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viggen 644 Posted November 16, 2008 Starfighter: Have the Serbian MiGs been upgraded yet? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+starfighter2 117 Posted November 16, 2008 Yes, 2 of them. Outside they look like 9-12, inside changed wireing and avionics - now simmilar to 9-13 standard (just without "hump"), capable of fireing R-77. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carlos_Tex 2 Posted November 16, 2008 Hey starfighter2 a word of advice we must not bad mouth russian technology otherwise we´ll start to have russian guys bad mouthing us here at combat ace!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+starfighter2 117 Posted November 16, 2008 (edited) This is not only mine personal opinion, I spoked with several pilots about this subject. BTW if somebody love Russia - that will be me. BTW2 - first export version of MiG-29 was and still is crap plane. Edited November 16, 2008 by starfighter2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Brain32 265 Posted November 16, 2008 That's true, one can also look at German comments. I still love the way it looks lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+starfighter2 117 Posted November 16, 2008 Yea it looks great - it will be very nice addon from TMF when finished. Ingame - I'm sure it will be splendid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Silverbolt 104 Posted November 16, 2008 This is not only mine personal opinion, I spoked with several pilots about this subject. BTW if somebody love Russia - that will be me. BTW2 - first export version of MiG-29 was and still is crap plane. Totally True, two wars proved it plus an Israeli F-15 x MiG-29 report that i posted here... i'm not sure what soviets wanted to give to their friends....a chance to fight or give a defeat passport . with this kind of allie you don't need enemy.... but, is it just a mikoyan problem or a Russian issue to sell technologie? I remember too those MiG-23 using Fishbed's radar...wtf? a plane that supposed to be better than F-4 gaind disavantage against the same plane. i seems just the Russian SAMs were good for export. anyway, if you have money like India or China you may got everything the best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+starfighter2 117 Posted November 16, 2008 (edited) Yep - that was MiG-23MS Export variant - very limited in combat - both - old radar and old Atolls, weaker engine - newer MiG-21's (MF and BiS) was better then MS Flogger. MiG-29A (9-12) have extra ordinary dogfight capability, problem was(is) bad avionics, and very bad tactics in combat use. They have (on paper) BVR - but in combat they failed to fire R-27R, due radar malfunction or simply fact that AIM-7M is 2 times better in RL and AIM-120 have near twice further range. In both wars which you mention, they can't stand a chance. 9-13 MiG-29's or better - have R-77 which generaly move MiG's edge and make them formidable opponent, also newer 29's have much better offensive/deffensive electronics. Technology issue with Russian export which you mention also, it's matter of earlyer Soviet politics, not new one. EDIT> Crusader says and I agree > "only potentional danger from early/ export -29's was if they were used as point defense fighters armed wall to wall with R-73 ... thats something the western fighters couldnt match in mid 80's" Edited November 16, 2008 by starfighter2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FastCargo 412 Posted November 16, 2008 Well, if you want to get cynical about it, the logic is simple: "Don't sell your allies your good stuff...you might have to fight them someday." FC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hubertus 0 Posted November 16, 2008 This aircraft looks like a french Rafale, but with one engine:D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emp_Palpatine 501 Posted November 16, 2008 Yep - that was MiG-23MS Export variant - very limited in combat - both - old radar and old Atolls, weaker engine - newer MiG-21's (MF and BiS) was better then MS Flogger.MiG-29A (9-12) have extra ordinary dogfight capability, problem was(is) bad avionics, and very bad tactics in combat use. They have (on paper) BVR - but in combat they failed to fire R-27R, due radar malfunction or simply fact that AIM-7M is 2 times better in RL and AIM-120 have near twice further range. In both wars which you mention, they can't stand a chance. 9-13 MiG-29's or better - have R-77 which generaly move MiG's edge and make them formidable opponent, also newer 29's have much better offensive/deffensive electronics. Technology issue with Russian export which you mention also, it's matter of earlyer Soviet politics, not new one. EDIT> Crusader says and I agree > "only potentional danger from early/ export -29's was if they were used as point defense fighters armed wall to wall with R-73 ... thats something the western fighters couldnt match in mid 80's" Even in a symetric war (ie Ethiopia vs Erythrea) the MiG29 fared bad. Ethipioan Sukkhois did achieve air superiority without much efforts. So technology difference may not be the sole factor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+starfighter2 117 Posted November 16, 2008 Air combat between Ethiopian and Eritrean air forces, 1999 - Su-27 vs Mig-29> Besides taking out four Eritrean MiG-29s (plus one written off due to damage recieved from a AAM) Ethiopian Su-27s also carried out many strike missions against the Eritrean ground forces. While MiG-23s carried most of the bombing missions i think the Su-27 was used in a more penetrative role using Air-to-ground missiles etc. Interesting to note that all MiG-29s were shot down in close-quarters turning dogfights. All kills were by means of the R-73. R-27s fired by both MiGs and Su-s on various occassions failed to find their mark. One uneventful incident occured when two Su-27s were intercepted over Eritrean airspace by four MiGs. The lead Su-27 was targeted by the MiGs which fired three R-27s head-on. The Lead evaded the missiles and then proceeded to engage all four MiGs by firing four R-27s in quick succession. The missiles missed and the MiGs left in a hurry. Ethiopia purchased 5 second-hand Su-27 Flanker-As from Russian. One was lost in a demonstration in Ethiopia. Eritrea purchased about 8 second hand MiG-29 Fulcrum-As from the Ukraine. AS it is five MiG were lost due to Su-27s. Single MiG-29s were shot down on separate days in late February. Then two were shot down in one engagement with Su-27s in March. One MiG-29 was also supposedly written-off on landing after being damaged by a Su-27. As far as ive been told ALL kills were made with R-73 Archers. Some head-to-head R-27 shootouts did occur but with no visible results (the written-off MiG couldve been damaged in one of these). Claims and denials from the powers-that-be make the task of finding the truth... complicated. As far as I know there are no significant differences between early and new or domestic and export R-27 variants. (Excluding the active radar homing R-27AE which was cancelled in favour of R-77, and the R-27EM which is only used with the Su-33, AFAIK.) As for why the R-27s might have missed, it's not terribly suprising IMHO. The older Sparrow with Israelis has had a success rate of only 35% or so against MiG-21/23s flown by poorly trained pilots who usually did't even know they're being fired upon... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites