New campaign idea: "Yugoslav wars"

[Gunnar88]

Hi there... i have an idea for a campaing... "Yugoslav wars"

 

August 4, 1995

... Croatia has started its long prepared operations "Storm" and "Flash" ("Oluja" and "Bljesak") Croatian MIG-21bis are attacking the rebel Serb targets on Croatian territory... The Yugoslav goverment is not pleased with those operations at all... so the "Yugoslavian Air Force" engages croatian airplanes on their own teritory...

Watching this... the NATO start bombing Serbian tagets in Yugoslavia from their carrier force in Adriatic sea

 

(This is a historical event... Only that the yugoslav goverment did not send airplanes, and NATO started bombing Yugoslavia few years later, but for the "effect" of the campaing... i would be intresting to set it this way...)

 

Here is the link for historical "Operatin Sorm": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

 

a part of "Croatian war for Independence" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

 

And a link for this whole sh** of war that happened here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_wars

 

And for the NATO bombings of yugoslavia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force

 

There will be some good dogfights with serbian MIG-29...

 

And... also there will be needed some new planes... so, any free modelers?

 

Here are the planes that need to be created from scratch or created from models of other similiar aircraft...

J-21 "Jastreb" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-21_jastreb

 

G-2 "Galeb" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-2_Galeb <- It looks exactly like jastreb, but has 2 seats, and was reccon/training... also used for ground attack role

 

J-22 "Orao" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soko_J-22_Orao

 

G-4 "Super Galeb" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-4_Super_Galeb

 

 

Those planes look very familiar to other planes for which there are models... so they only need to be modified (Offcourse, only with author approval)

 

 

So... tell me... what do you think?

[thundercheif]

You would need a terrain too.

[+Brain32]

High fidelity Balkans terrain in developement by....*suspense rising*.....*drums*....ME! :D

 

BTW in case of historical scenarios, anything other than groundpounding would be totaly unhistorical for "Yugoslav wars", darn that expression sounds funny lol. Anyway, only on one occasion there were planes of both sides in the air in the same time in the same area...but nothing happened. The fog was thick and nobody wanted to get killed so after a few "hey let's try to find them" both flights RTB'ed.

 

I have no interest in Croatian Independence war scenarios, I don't need to play it, I lived through it lol

However, the terrain I'm making will allow for many possibilities, for example:

WW2 - why not, ok the terrain might be a bit too modern, but don't be river counters :D

 

Yugoslavia - SSSR - 50's crysis - that was a close shave, we had F-80,F-86,F-84 etc. against MiG-15 and company...might be interesting.

 

Yugoslavia - Bulgaria - was some problems in 70's, was nearly 10 years before my birth, but my dad was a T-55 driver, and they were showing off the power near the border, maybe Starfighter knows more?

 

General Cold War as in WoE...

[macelena]

I use Norway terrain, a yugoslav skins are here available to download. Featuring Galebs and Oraos, i use

Gnats and MB-339. Terrain gives some targets for interdiction wich are under the surface, so untouchable, but

its mountains feat the balkans really well

[+starfighter2]

Brain, Starfighter knows more for sure........

BTW I have some airplanes in works already

[Jeremiah Weed]

There will be some good dogfights with serbian MIG-29...

 

I guess, since the sim won't take in to account that the 12 (and 2 two seat trainers) Serbian Fulcrums had years neglect (due to mismanagement of funds, lack of spare parts etc.) and that their radars didn't work most of the time, the Serbians never had more than 3 in flyable condition and that the first night of the bombing was the only time that at least 3 were in the air at once.

[+starfighter2]

I guess, since the sim won't take in to account that the 12 (and 2 two seat trainers) Serbian Fulcrums had years neglect (due to mismanagement of funds, lack of spare parts etc.) and that their radars didn't work most of the time, the Serbians never had more than 3 in flyable condition and that the first night of the bombing was the only time that at least 3 were in the air at once.

 

There was 16 migs 29 (14 + 2 seater)

now - 5

 

EDIT > they were all in flyable conditions back in 90's

Edited November 24, 2008 by starfighter2

[Jeremiah Weed]

There was 16 migs 29 (14 + 2 seater)

now - 5

 

EDIT > they were all in flyable conditions back in 90's

 

I got my numbers mixed up, you are right. I read a very good first hand account of the Fulcrums in Allied Force, trying to find it right now. It wasn't pretty, and it wasn't the fault of the Serbian Air Force by any means. By the time 1999 rolled around they were not in very good shape.

 

Here is the link

 

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_380.shtml

[Gunnar88]

Well... I am happy that there is so much response... In my opinion i agree with thunderchief... there were no aerial battles... but for the "Joy" of playing, we could "bend" the history a little bit... lets say.. that Yugoslavia reacted at operation "Storm" (At which it did not in real history) that would place croatia and Yugoslavia in a state of war (Although they never declared war upon each other... This is a complicated situation, and if you want to know more just go to Wikipedia, and look up "Yugoslavian wars"), the NATO would react... probably in the favor of the Croats... (This would be good because Croatia only had about 30 - 35 MIG-21bis) Lets assume the Yugoslavian had MIG-29's in good condition (Although they only had 16 MIG-29, they had lots of MIG-21, J-22 "Oraos", G-4"Super Galebs") That's why we need to make this planes... so that the balance of the forces is somehow even, but without bending the historical accuracy to far... I don't want to be historically accurate for missions, or political situations, but purely "AIRPLANES"...

 

With this rules... Croatia would have an good, and well trained air force (This is historically true because we made a modern air force in 4 years, and that was thought to be impossible for such a young country, and in so little time), the Yugoslavia would also have a very strong air force with all those migs, oraos, jastrebs, galebs, etc... AND... there would be NATO... Some F-14 "Tomcats" but not too much... so that Croatia, and NATO are united against Yugoslavia, but we can not make NATO and Croatia too strong... We just add NATO to even the ods betwen Yu and CRO... After all, they are the main combatants, and the fight is over their territory... That is my idea...

 

P.S.

I see that Gnats and MB-339 are very similar to jastrebs and galebs... Would you like to share those models with us, so we can ask their authors if we can change their models so that they look exactly like oraos and galebs? (off course, if we find willing modelers...)

I think because they look similiar, there should be less trouble in changing the model than making it from scrap...

 

What do yu think of that?

[+Typhoid]

" Anyway, only on one occasion there were planes of both sides in the air in the same time in the same area...but nothing happened. The fog was thick and nobody wanted to get killed so after a few "hey let's try to find them" both flights RTB'ed."

 

I recall there being several engagements.

[macelena]

I think that making it realistic shouldn´t be took as far as killing

the campaign per lack of oposition. A fulcrum serbian squadron with up to 16 a/c,

would fit, but making it less would make them be a Eagle Sweep long

 

About other aircraft, i suggest to give decoys to all of them, by the same reasons. Perhaps

making it a high density in AAA would give the campaign a strong personality, and be more realistic,

but improving the air opforce within some reasonable limits would avoid killing the campaign. The other

option i see would be to decrease the enemy air activity. Tell what you rather, but i´m not meaning to give serbians

half hundred fulcrums and two hundred fishbeds

 

i.e: If you were playing with Eagles, wouldn´t you like to have something more serious to do

after the first dogfights than chasing Galebs?

 

EDIT: s**t, gunnar already got this kind of idea as i wrote

Edited November 24, 2008 by macelena

[macelena]

I see that Gnats and MB-339 are very similar to jastrebs and galebs... Would you like to share those models with us, so we can ask their authors if we can change their models so that they look exactly like oraos and galebs? (off course, if we find willing modelers...)

I think because they look similiar, there should be less trouble in changing the model than making it from scrap...

 

 

Gnats from the serbian air force are in Marcfighters, trouble is that i don´t know whasup with its page. MB is over here, i got one

from a falklands pack (i suggest to use this mod carefully, broke my SFP1 install)

[Gunnar88]

Well.. we can add few more fulcrums to the serbian AF... and lets asume they have been trained by russians, because russia is to serbia like a big brother...

So the serbian pilots would be a very tough oposition... wait... just let me check the status of the YUAF in year 1990... how much planes they got...

 

OK... here is the list of historical SFR Yugoslav Air Force Operational Inventory, 1990

 

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 Fishbed

MiG-21Bis/MF/M = 100

MiG-21UM/US = 14

MIG-21R = 10

 

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 Fulcrum

MiG-29A = 14

MiG-29UB = 2

 

Soko J-20 Kraguj = 40

 

SOKO J-22 Orao = 53

 

SOKO G-2 Galeb = 131

 

SOKO G-4 Super Galeb = 88

 

Soko J-21 Jastreb = 108

 

Wiki link to YUAF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SFR_Yugoslav_Air_Force

Edited November 24, 2008 by Gunnar88

[Gunnar88]

We need to achive those 4 things if we want the campaing to be fun"

 

1. Models of planes missing...(It is far more better to see a real J-22 or J-21/G-2 than a cheep copy )

2. Balkan Terrain... Brain32... i think we have a job for you if you are willing to do it :)... can you please post some screens of your balkan map...

4.All that balance betwen forces. (So that it is fair for all sides but still with lot of action and dogfight)

3. Political and "ethnical" neutrality (The problem is that for many people in those countries this theme is quite emotional... because this war was not so long ago... and it should be fair to all "combatants" croats, serbs, bosniaks, etc...) We need to say that so that people don't get the wrong idea that we are spreading someones propaganda...

[Gunnar88]

Oh... yes.. and one more question... should we make cockpits for some of those new planes? (J-21,J-22,G-2,G4)

 

Because, as Brain32 said... we could use some of those planes for other Yugoslav campaigns, not just the 1995...

Edited November 24, 2008 by Gunnar88

[+starfighter2]

Well.. we can add few more fulcrums to the serbian AF... and lets asume they have been trained by russians, because russia is to serbia like a big brother...

So the serbian pilots would be a very tough oposition... wait... just let me check the status of the YUAF in year 1990... how much planes they got...

 

OK... here is the list of historical SFR Yugoslav Air Force Operational Inventory, 1990

 

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 Fishbed

MiG-21Bis/MF/M = 100

MiG-21UM/US = 14

MIG-21R = 10

 

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 Fulcrum

MiG-29A = 14

MiG-29UB = 2

 

Soko J-20 Kraguj = 40

 

SOKO J-22 Orao = 53

 

SOKO G-2 Galeb = 131

 

SOKO G-4 Super Galeb = 88

 

Soko J-21 Jastreb = 108

 

Wiki link to YUAF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SFR_Yugoslav_Air_Force

 

 

MiG-29's was in very good shape back in 1999, trouble is (was) 9-12 MiG was proven as bad in A2A combat - very unreliable avionics systems in it, but as dogfighter - it was (and still is) dream plane. They could not stand a chance with enemy with 50:1 ratio in numbers - it was suicidal to take off and very brave at the same time.

 

BTW - we had only 4 MiG-21MF - retired in 1994, rest of them was BiS planes.

[topcat II]

Yes plese do should be fun!!!!

[macelena]

A marvel of this forums is that you can talk about a war you lived with people from the other side. Here are serbians, croatians, albanians,

and people from NATO members. Now you vote each other in Eurovision (or is it possible tovote in a foreign tv?)

 

I don´t know, but despite that we think about war more than in sex (or almost) we

are the most peaceful people on the internet... i´m even more afraid from EMOs

[Gunnar88]

i agree macelena... so... lets unite to make this Campaign, or should i say MOD, possible :)

Any volunteers to help us? We need 3d modelers, texturers, map builders etc....

 

OH!!!!! I almost forgot... we can make Serbian and Croatian pilot conversation... :)

[Emp_Palpatine]

i´m even more afraid from EMOs

One can't fear them too much... They are dreadfuls, those EMOs!!

[Sakai]

I think this is a great idea, I will be happy to beta test any product of this group. Im not much of a modder. but the up side to that is I play ALOT! lol

[macelena]

One can't fear them too much... They are dreadfuls, those EMOs!!

This summer i worked as Kid-for-all in a friend´s discotheque for EMOs, moving alcohol inside crates and bottles,

alcohol inside people... and i can tell you somethings:

 

1- I´m 1.82cm tall (approx 6 feet) and never met anyone taller-NEVER

2-The EMOgirls and HOMOEMOs could try to rape you in a dark place. If you deny, they will threaten with suicide. If you

say "Go on" they threaten with crying. They cry, really. I´m ugly as Moe

3-They all believe to be vampires

4-before that i was against death penalty

 

EDIT: That´s the most stupid post i made for long. Sorry

Edited November 24, 2008 by macelena

[+starfighter2]

A marvel of this forums is that you can talk about a war you lived with people from the other side. Here are serbians, croatians, albanians,

and people from NATO members. Now you vote each other in Eurovision (or is it possible tovote in a foreign tv?)

 

I don´t know, but despite that we think about war more than in sex (or almost) we

are the most peaceful people on the internet... i´m even more afraid from EMOs

 

Personally - I saw war up close and too personal(several times). Anything that don't kill you - make you a better men.

[+Brain32]

2. Balkan Terrain... Brain32... i think we have a job for you if you are willing to do it :)... can you please post some screens of your balkan map...

Sorry m8, it's not in showable state yet, as it's a huge undertaking for one man, and I mean tiles and terrain only, I will have to "hire" people for targets and vegetation or I will never finish it.

Once I get to stage where showing some parts is reasonable I'll post it :)

[Gunnar88]

Hehe... we can create more campaigns for YUAF... like Brain said... the crisis with SSSR and Bulgaria... This is a begining of a new game ... "WINGS OVER YUGOSLAVIA" or "WINGS OVER BALKAN"...