RNAS no10 sq Camels

[+quack74 329]

I'm making skins for the Camel in the RNAS no10 squadron markings. I know that A flight had black and white stripes, B flight had red and white stripes, and C flight had blue stripes. The wheel discs where white with artwork in the flights colors. They had two white stripes on the fuselage. One in the mid section and one just before the horizontal stabilizer.

 

If anyone knows of any other detail or any photos available please let me know. I would like to get these as accurate as posible before posting.

 

I'm going to post a download with 3 camel skins first. All with white wheels only, for AI purposes.

 

A Flight

B Flight

C Flight

 

Then I'll post 4 camels for each flight with different wheel markings. Only because the game doesnt generate personal markings on Camel wheel discs. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thks

[+LloydNB 212]

quack74

 

Have a look at my No.10 squadron skins in the download section. I did the scowling stripes and wheels with decals. Hope it gives you some ideas.

 

LloydNB

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Quack.

 

First off, many thanks for having a go at the Naval 10 Camels...You're THE MAN! :yes:

 

I can send you pics of the info you need, but it won't be for a few days.

 

My scanner's porked, so I'll have to photograph the relevant info...Trouble is, the new camera my girls bought me for Christmas is faulty, so it has to be returned to the shop. I should get the replacement in a few days, so if you can hang fire till then?...

 

If you're interested, PM me with your email address.

 

Bucky

[+p10ppy 2]

check out Mark Miller's 10 sq camels for some inspiration (if you haven't already)

http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Miller/re...amel/index.html

 

ps you "should" be able to decal the wheel covers

[+quack74 329]

Thks everybody for your input.

I'll tell ya, its hard getting the stripes to line up on the Camels cowel. Took me for ever. But they're lookin good. The white fuselage stripe in the middle is supposed to angle aft at the top on the no.10 Sq Camels. That I know. But thats right where the fuselage tappers and gets distorted. It was really taking too long to get it right. So for now I made just straight lines. Still looks good. Hope thats ok with you guys? Oh and thks LloydNB, I did use your wheel disc decals. Had to make them a little bigger but they worked great. I Just dont know the right shade of blue for "C" Flight. Look at the photo and tell me what you guys think.

 

Have a look.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2008 by quack74

[+quack74 329]

Hey p10ppy what do you mean "decal" the wheels. You mean do them myself (which I already did), or make the game generate them? Is that possible? That would be great if it is. Seems like it would take some time though.

[+LloydNB 212]

Very nice

 

I like the weathering. Getting the right shade of blue is hard. No two sources agree. I like the shade you have chosen.

 

My version of No. 10 squadron was a 'proof of concept' and done before I knew how to do layers. I'll be downloading your when its available.

 

LloydNB

[Southside Bucky 1]

Most excellent, Quack!...They really look the business!

 

Nice of LloydNB to allow the use of his wheel art too. :yes:

 

 

If it makes things any easier for you artwork-wise, the forward white fuselage stripe on MOST of Naval 10's Camels stopped at the top longeron.

 

Like this:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/18417653...217#reader-link

 

I think the only one I've seen with the staggered continuous stripe is on B flight's B6299.

 

 

Also, not sure if it matters overmuch, but the only fuselage letters Naval 10 used were: A, B & C, in black, red & blue respectively. The only individual recognition markings were the wheel covers.

 

One other small point for those who might like to keep things historically accurate: The colourful striping was discontinued when the squadron received their new 150hp Bentley powered Camels in February 1918, so maybe use the Naval 10 skins in the game's 130hp Camel only?

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bucky

Edited December 30, 2008 by Southside Bucky

[+quack74 329]

Lots of good info there bucky. As you can see I already made the skins. So I already did the stripes all the way around the nose. I've seen renderings done both ways. I dont know whats correct. As far as the lettering goes I can make the A B C letterng permenant on the fuselage and just remove it in the decal file. I didnt know about A flight using only "A" and B flight using "B" etc. Thks for that.

 

what about the top wing lettering and the underside of the bottom wing lettering? Did No.10sq use these letters in these positions?

 

Are there any photos of any No.10 RNAS Camels? I havent seen any.

Should I change the nose stripes or leave the ones I made?

[+quack74 329]

How about this. Let me know if this seems right. I was able to find a flight line photo of "A" flight. Their stripes didnt go all the way around.

[+LloydNB 212]

Generally the stripes didn't go right around the cowling (historical error on my part!!). The exception I can find is B6299 of "B" Flight. It is the only one with the stripes on the upper fuselage behind the cockpit. The trouble is that most of the models done appear to draw on B6299 as their inspiration - giving the impression that the whole flight/squadron was painted the same.

 

The aircraft pictured above is B6211 (FSL HB Maund).

 

Feel free to use the serial codes from my skin if you want to. They are matched to the wheel covers.

 

LloydNB

[+whiteknight06604 935]

excellent camels.I will be waiting for these beauties.what do you have planned after you give the camels the "treatment"?

[Southside Bucky 1]

I was about to reply, but LloydNB's just saved me a bit of time with his succinct explanation. He's right. As a general rule, the stripes did not completely encircle the cowling.

 

However, I have four photo's of Naval 10 Camels with full cowling stripes:

 

A crashed 'B' flight machine, serial No.B5658, flown by FSL. F Booth. (Wheel design not visible)

 

Another crashed machine, serial unknown, but again, looks like another 'B' flight a/c. (Wheel design not visible)

 

B6449, from 'B' flight, flown by Lt. H.B. Maund. (Shamrock design on the wheel covers)

 

Yet another 'B' flight a/c, serial number unknown, but with a smallish red spot, slightly larger than, and painted over the wheel cover valve access hole.

 

So it would seem that the only Naval 10 Camels to have their stripes painted all round the cowling would be some, but not all, from 'B' flight only.

 

Regarding the rear fuselage stripes, the only one I can find with them painted across the rear decking, is B6299. ALL others have the short stripes.

 

Oh, and no, they didn't use wing letters.

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

Edited December 30, 2008 by Southside Bucky

[deep 5]

Beautiful!

[+quack74 329]

Thanks everybody!

You guys know your stuff. I think I have enough info for now. I'll post all three flights with white wheel discs. Than I'll post four Camels for each flight with markings on the wheels. Like I said before, I'm not sure if I can get the game to generate the wheel disc markings. So for now I'll just make the ones with personal markings seperate.

 

There will be:

 

"A" Flight Camels w white wheels + 4 more w markings

"B" Flight Camels w white wheels + 4 more w markings

"C" Flight Camels w white wheels + 4 more w markings

 

Thats a lot of Camels. Hope you like'em. Took a long time to make

 

I'm also doing a new version of the RAF 209sqn Camels with the red and white tails and red striped upper wings. Its been done before but not for this version of the game. Also some no.9 RNAS soon.

Again thks evrybody

[+p10ppy 2]

with the wheel cover decals

and I'm assuming you are decaling them rather than painting them on the skin (I'm still a bit confused about that bit )

 

you assign the wheel decals a number sequence just like a sq number or aircraft number

and set them to the appropriate decal level in the decal.ini and then they only appear on that particular aircraft (numberxxx)

 

I'm a long way from home so I'm not being very specific, I'm sorry

 

edit:

have alook at the SPAD7_180 repaint i did (the decal structure is a mess but it should point you in the right direction)

 

[Decal001]

MeshName=Fuselage P

DecalLevel=2 //(from memory) squadron level decal

DecalFacing=TOP

FilenameFormat=SPAD7_180\Decals\Spa3TopFu//Spa3TopFu001 goes on the first aircraft ...etc

Rotation=270.0

Position=0.0,-2.4

Scale=1.4

DecalMaxLOD=3

 

there's a new feature in the latest patch, an alias.lst (again from memory ) which used in conjunction with the DecalLevel should be quite efficient (search the TW forum)

 

PS as far as i know the game doesn't ever generate random decals....

 

hope that helps

Edited December 31, 2008 by p10ppy

[+quack74 329]

I guess I need to look at the decal tutorial. How do you find the position of the decal on the skin template?????. And I would need to create 16 wheel cover decals. 16 in black, 16 red and 16 blue right?

Thks p10ppy. I have my work cut out for me on this one .

Just skinning is time consuming enough, and now this! sigh!

Anyway I think I got the skins all worked out for the no.10 sqd RNAS Camels.

Edited December 31, 2008 by quack74

[+quack74 329]

Here are some more. With a couple of 209sqn. RAF

Edited December 31, 2008 by quack74

[VONTOBLER 18]

Here are some more. With a couple of 209sqn. RAF

WOW!! I am in aaaaaaaaawww or awe or aw however you spell it ,Quack your work never ceases to amaze me. Also a big "Thank You!!"goes out to everyone in this community for all they're help to make these new Camel schemes look incredible, Keep up the great work.

Yours Respectfully,

Werner VonTobler

Edited December 31, 2008 by VONTOBLER

[+p10ppy 2]

I guess I need to look at the decal tutorial. How do you find the position of the decal on the skin template?????. And I would need to create 16 wheel cover decals. 16 in black, 16 red and 16 blue right?

Thks p10ppy. I have my work cut out for me on this one .

Just skinning is time consuming enough, and now this! sigh!

Anyway I think I got the skins all worked out for the no.10 sqd RNAS Camels.

 

I don't know much about RNAS formations... do Sq's really have 48 aircraft

 

either way its still more efficient to use decals rather than whole skins

just think of the wheelcovers as a type of serial numbers

(though with the alias.lst thingy you can use 1 numbered decal for more than 1 aircraft...i think)

 

When you are mapping a new decal it does not work off the UVmap/skin (unfortunately) but off the actual models world space

 

[Decal002]

MeshName=Fuselage P //the mesh that you want the decal stuck to...(fuselage in this case)

DecalLevel=2

DecalFacing=RIGHT //what way the decal faces on the model

FilenameFormat=SPAD7_180\Decals\Spa3Fus

Rotation=180.0 //rotation of the decal...useful for text sometimes

Position=-1.38,-0.72 //the position of the decal on the overall model in this case 1.38 metres behind and .72 metres below the aircraft's centre

Scale=2.14 //the size of the decal

DecalMaxLOD=3

 

trial and error is the ONLY way to work out the placement i'm afraid

to find out the mesh/meshes name a hex editor on the main *.lod and good guessing/searching is the best way (TK is pretty logical with his naming)

wheel_L and wheel_R is probably the right MeshName in this case

 

hope that helps

there is an old (very old) decal tut in the dl section ...things have changed but its still mostly the same...

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autoc...mp;showfile=345

this may help as well

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=33899&hl=

 

have fun

[+quack74 329]

Well now I have to try it out p10ppy. Might take some time though. I'll just post all the Camel skins I made for now so everyone can use them. One thing; did the no.209 sqn RAF have roundels on the fusalage sides or no. What I've read so far had no confirmation on that. Anybody know. I can always post the skin w rounels and users can delete the decal if they want .

[Southside Bucky 1]

One thing; did the no.209 sqn RAF have roundels on the fusalage sides or no. What I've read so far had no confirmation on that. Anybody know. I can always post the skin w rounels and users can delete the decal if they want .

 

 

 

Good idea!...Les Rogers, the author of the seminal 'British Aviation Squadron Markings of WWI' has this to say about the lack of fuselage roundels on Naval 9 Camels:

 

"Photos of 209 Camels show the fuselage Cockade and serial both visible and/or overpainted in various combinations. I have recently been informed that the reason for this was that during the time that their aircraft were photographed, they were all being repainted"

 

Personally, I'll be deleting mine.

 

Incidentally, although very nice, your screenshot of the 209 line up has the whole squadron in the individual markings of one particular pilots plane and markings...Namely, Roy Brown's (of Richthofen fame) B7270.

 

The Camels of Naval 9 were more individualistic and equally as colourful as Naval 10's, as these beautiful renderings by Mark Miller show:

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...v%3D2%26hl%3Den

Edited December 31, 2008 by Southside Bucky

[+quack74 329]

Was Naval 9 different than 209 Raf? What was the standard of 209? they all have red noses and red and white tails? I see that 9 RNAS was mostly blue. I was going to do a few 9's too. But I would like to get 209 right first. On my 209 camel what are the personal markings? I dont have any books on these things. Just trying to find photos on the web. Some things are confusing . If I remove the personal markings would It be correct? I need everyones help here. Dont know much about Camels. I'm a Dr.1 fan .

 

You've all helped so much with these Camels so far. Credit will go to you when done

 

Keep the info comin! More 209sqn info needed!

Edited December 31, 2008 by quack74

[Southside Bucky 1]

Yeah, same squadron: 9 (Naval) Squadron became 209 when the RFC and RNAS were merged to become the RAF on 1st April 1918.

 

There were those a/c with the blue cowlings, blue/white bands, circles etc, and those with red cowlings and various red/white decorations, like Roy Brown's.

 

Most of the remaining photos are of the blue flight. I think Mark Miller has depicted just about all of 'em in his artwork.

[+quack74 329]

Ok let me see if I get ya.

I understand 9 became 209. So Brown's Camel and his whole flight had red nose and red and white tails. The upper wings carried their personal markings. Ex: red and white stripes or circles on the upper wings.

Did the Blue nosed Camels from 9 carry over to 209? Or were they just red? I know this crazy!

 

Browns 209 Camel was part of a flight? Red nosed and red w white tails? Or all 209's were like this?

Or was there a second flight of 209's w blue noses? or was that just the earlier No.9?

 

I hope I'm not confusing you. I just want to make a No.9 and No.209 skin to use in the game. But if they all had personal upper wing markings and different color cowls and tails then it's not going to be easy a little graphic huh?

What if I just made a 209 Camel with just a red nose and a red and white tail? To use in the games campaigns and single missions. Same with No.9?

 

Oh before I forget, were the 209 Camels the 150hp and the 9's 130hp?

Edited December 31, 2008 by quack74